I've been nosing around here for the past 24 hours and enjoying being back to my very first pagan home on line, albeit in a different incarnation, immensely

But I saw a fascinating thread on white magic which went off onto a tangent about Christian Witches.

If no one minds I'd love to discuss this further because its my belief that witchcaft is what it says on the tin.

A craft

So can therefore be practised by anyone who is adept, surely.

Its also my belief a witch is born and not made so the fact that one may be born into a Christian household, whilst causing a bit of a problem, would still be a witch......... No?

many apologies if this has been done before, but I did look, honest

Quick, duck!!!!


As it's quitet i can get my say in before the 'real' witches blast me out of the sky.
Personally i think that most witches were christians simply because most of the population was christian. I am sure than there were a few witches who were not but the majority probably were. As you say it's all craft so i don't think it mattered in the past. Now of course it does because it's become modern. Like those who say that the burning times were about pagan witches as we know them. I think it's rubbish pesonally. IMO they were christians, well most.
What you could probably call witches in this part of italy, who are really just the usual so-called wise woman, are all catholics or protestant and use their saints and biblical references in their magick and charms. The local hooknose is a protestant but uses charms with a distinctly diabolic feel to them and the herbal remedies using herbs collected under the right moon and under auspicious stars must be taken on particular saint's days or (recently) standing on steps of the church with a psalm written on a piece of paper in hand for them to be effective. It's a real mix of tradition.
I'm sure it's not that different in the UK.
My mother has an excellent book published before the war which has spells charms, tarot, magick and all sorts in and it is a heady mix of folky stuff and christian.

Of course most witches of the past were Christian and in fact were probably until very recently.

People love to quote the bible on such occasions to prove this wrong, but we have to remember THAT particular part was changed by James the first who had a terror of the occult.

But that is a whole other ball game but one only has to look in to the Stuart/Stewart family tree to understand his reasons

Depends on how you define "Witch".

Well surely a witch is someone who practises witchcraft with the emphasis being on craft.

I think there's a tendency to mix up Wicca, or similar (that is religious) with bogstandard witchery which most certainly is not.

Ah - well, I don't know about bog standard Witchery, so can't comment. I do know that xians (if they follow the Bible) are advised against Witchcraft.

Yep they are, but that again stems back to James the first.

However supposing that the witches ability is indeed a borne "gift", which is honed through experience, then surely their practising religion is immaterial ?

When I first started to take an interest in witchcraft I was very much a xtian, and infact the first magic I practiced was healing magic, and I didn't see a conflict in being both a witch and a xtian. But as time passed and I got drawn more and more into a pagan world and started to discover pagan Gods and Goddesses, so I drifted away from my xtian world, started to wear a pent and came to realise that I was no longer a xtian. However for a period of about 2 years I was both a witch and a xtian and as I said saw no conflict in being both.

I have 2 catholic friends who have both taken an interest in what I do, and both of them, separately, have said how they can see similarities in what they do as part of their religion, and what I do as part of being a witch - but the big difference is they hand over their hopes and desires to the will of god, whereas I dont.

Of course, its a bit more technical than that, but you get my point, I hope.

I have also found that the non catholic christian people I know are an awful lot less accepting of witchcraft and the occult in general, and I havent yet sussed out why this is. And havent given it as much thought as I should probably.

I dont see why a witch cant be christian, but what I cant get my head around is someone who says they are a christian pagan. Now that doesnt make sense to me AT ALL.

ps - I think witches are born and not made too

I can only speak for here but there is a big diffference between the type of witchcraft mentioned in the bible which (as it states in the maleus) uses demons and imps and the devil and which goes against god, and those using overtly christian formulae which actually invoke god and the angels and saints and is not even frowned upon by the pope.
This is what i don't get about the 'we are all sisters with the persecuted witches bit', there were no witches imo, the village wise woman (term i hate but use for convenience) has always existed and has always manipulated magick and the saints and even god to empower her remedies and charms I don't think she would have called herself a witch or been called so. Witches were evil and (again, sorry) here more aligned with a simple manifestation of evil and harm than a physical person, until the persecutions when it all went haywire. The waldensians, a protestant sect in our valley were persecuted too, and they were wholly christian!!
I get the feeling that the whole thing is linguistic problem, that people are confusing two different things. I'm sure there would be no problem if we had one word for witch in the persecution/malleus context and another for today's witches.
We have found shoes from the late 1700s/early 1800s in each of our lofts. These were put there like witch bottles, as protection against witches (literal translation of the word masche). We have also found two walled bottles, a walled leech dish and several carved designs to ward off witches. One of the women living here in the early 1800s was what we would probably term 'witch', charmed warts, made potions, sold remedies on e-bay you all know the stuff. To me this means that they distinguished between the two. Why would you put up protection against yourself? She was a christian, the witches she was protecting against weren't.
Thanks Confrey, a good topic at last.

See this is why I think people get mixed up. The assumption these days is you have to be a pagan to be a witch and as paganism and christianity certainly cant mix, ergo you cannot be a christian witch.

A witch doesnt have to be pagan nor do they have to believe in the gods. Some are and some do, but its not mandatory

Woozle I think you are absolutely correct about linguistics. But for these purposes I think the term witch is appropriate.

The use of magic can be a different thing and thats when we get into the whole ceremonial versus hedgewitchery etc etc debate.

I also think people get themselves tied up in knots about what a witch does and doesnt do and too often there is the assumption that they invoke Gods and Goddesses and dance around in scantily clad circles and this just isnt the truth.

But you see in my opinion a witch doesnt Do, a witch IS.



Thank you. Lets hope it doesn't prove to be my last

Ah, well that would be the 'ceremonial' witches of today, those who, like many others, lay claim to an ancient and 'traditional' lineage.

And you'll also see the Egyptian imagery used as per the Golden Dawn etc.

But..............and here is where I run the risk of being shouted down and shouted at, and generally accused of causing trouble, but this is my opinion - I lay claim to it as mine, and dont expect anyone to agree (it might be nice if they thought about it a little, but hey, thats not why I am posting it LOL) but I dont feel that they should call themselves witches. They are ceremonial magicians and its a different beast.

Yes, they may work magic, it might even work, but its done usually as a group, using a script, and I feel it misses the point of what a witch actually is.

Me go now

Have you been hit by any bricks yet?

That brigns us to what a witch is? Don't go there, please don't go there!!

But seriously, i meant only in a wisewoman/man context. Nowadays everyone who can wave a wand is on the righteous path and different and more valid than all the others but i think it starts further back than that.

I think what you're talking about is spellcraft not witchcraft. As I understand it, the xian system relies on begging a saint, angel, or him upstairs to intervene on your behalf, whereas witchcraft involves you doing the intervening yourself.

Not at all, that would be prayer.

If Witchcraft is simply a craft then it can be kept separate from any religious views one might have.

There is also the question about whether witchcraft IS all about spells. I doubt very much that it is. Or at least it is very much more than just lighting a pretty candle and chanting a rhyming couplet or two.

Just another thought

Because so many people think that witchcraft needs intervention of deity, does that therefore mean they arent practising witchcraft

The whole thing would be a whole lot easier if someone provided a set of reference definitions that could be used. (Jeez! look, up there, a pig!!!)
If witchcraft excludes spells/magick what it is then? It's not a belief system, i mean it doesn't have its own gods or anytihing, it's not a religion so can you have a witch that doesn't do magick?

Gawain. Here you would be more or less right. There is also an element of your personal power being used in conjunction with saints etc. I've often wondered, because most of these people seem to live in an agrarian setting, whether the moon cycles and stars and wind directions involved in the spells come from an egricultural existence and are common to all cultures from way back and that the religious aspect has just been superimposed.

Woozle, I said it wasn't ALL about spells not that it excluded it.

What I was meaning is people assume its all about chanting this and lighting that as if that is all there is to it. Yet without the inherent ability, nothing is going to happen even if you set a cathedral load of candles on fire

No i got your meaning, but I used maybe the wrong word in the reply. Put it this way, other than spells what does a witch do? (i mean a witch with ability)

well if it was just as simple or as basic as lighting a candle then everyone would be doing it

I think a witch has the ability to manipulate reality to his or her own desires. This need not be with spell work or indeed with the use of any accoutrement. They are simply tools to use or not as the case may be.

But I also think within every witch there is an element of psychic ability for the want of a better word. I know some people dont like to use psychic because it has overtones of the Derek Acorah type mediumship, but off hand i cant think of a better way to describe it.

So therefore a witch should be able to "journey" through meditation or trance work and possibley be able to "walk between worlds" if you get my meaning

Sorry I'm perhaps not explaining myself very well

I do think this gets mixed up with other things along the way and if a witch "needs" tools or other people to raise the energy necessary to affect that change then I really think they need to think again.

oh god I can see that I'm not going to be making many friends at this rate

Thought I would add my two pennith.

Yep there are loads of people out there who may be calling themselves xian witches. I think they ought to realise that in the bible there are a few places to find what their fellow christians etc should do with them.

Ie:- http://www.toogood.org/bible/kjv/05_deuteronomy/b05c013.htm

(I know this is old testy by the way). King James just imported this sort of nastyness to the Newby testy for the hell of it.

I think these folk (Xian witches) either lack the conviction to say "up yours" to their families religion for fear of damnation or are ignorant of Biblical passages which advise how they should be dealt with.

The same goes for the Gay xians too. Why would they want to be involved in a religion that despises the way they are really? I have never understood this personally either.
So, xian witch folk keep an eye over yer shoulder just incase yer breathren come a knocking for you. Sod being a xian witch in the Bible belt of the good old U.S. of A

Keith until James1 it was not specified that it should be witches who were damned, it was sorcerers.

The real trouble started with the Malleus Malificarum in the 1400's but that was actually more about womens evil in truth.

Just because SOME Christians believe witches are devil spawn does not mean that someone cannot have the religious belief in Christ and not be a witch.

Witchcraft is not a religion nor is it a belief system, it is a craft pure and simple.

Any belief system has its fundamentalists, even dear old Paganism, but that doesn't mean everyone feels the same way and to say people who call themselves Christian witches are in some how lacking the conviction to say "up yours" is insulting.

Perhaps you might like to say the same to those Christians who chose to wear cotton and polyester shirts, because that is more of a sin than being gay according to scripture

What about spiritualism? Surely that is dabbling with the occult and should therefore be damned? Yet almost all spiritualist churches are Christian.

I also wonder how many people who think the idea of christian witches ludicrous have a copy of the Rider-Waite tarot or leanings toward the OTO

The term "witchcraft" in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) refers to (mostly) women who used spoken curses to injure other people or destroy their property.

The term, "witchcraft" in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) refers to murderers who use poisons to kill people.

Now, "Witch" and "Witchcraft" most often refer to Wiccans and Wicca.

Wiccans are modern-day Neopagans. They follow Wicca, a new religion that has been created, in part, from ancient Celtic beliefs, practices, Gods, Goddesses, holy days and symbols. They follow the Wiccan Rede, a rule of behavior which prohibits Wiccans from performing any activity that dominates, manipulates, controls, or injures others.
Thus, in terms of behavior, Wicca is a benign and healing religion; the "witchcrafts" mentioned in the Bible are evil and destructive. The two are exact opposites.

imho

ummmmm not all Witches are Wiccan. In fact a good many aren't nor are they religious.

In fact if you look closely at Wiccan teachings it has more than a few similarities with Christianity, actually.

It wasn't me who wrote that vile stuff in the Bible so keep yer hair on!

Sorcery/ Witchcraft splitting hairs there me finks my deary.

I would say witchcraft is a spiritual path. Well,it is for myself and my close associates. Religion?I don't think so either.

I think the Christian witches keep the faith as a spiritual insurance policy nowt else. Maybe they need a religion. Some folk do,it is their perogative. I wouldn't mention it to the Vicar though.
Same for the Spookums brigade too.

If someone really practises Witchcraft it wont be long before the Witch realises what a load of middle eastern bunkum is in the Bible.
Where is Jesus when you are out in the wilds under the moon?
I have never met the so and so yet. Would be fun though as he seems alright really.
Turns water into wine, now that is a great skill to have. Bacchus would love him for that He seems a nice enough chap really,it is just the politicians and the power mad that have mucked up his "Its a nice idea to be civil to folk really dont you think" message. His followers down through the years seem to have forgotton that bit

What has Christianity etc got to do with Britain? It has left it's mark here to be sure, there is no denying.

Umm Keith you're making a lot of assumptions there.

Who says witchcraft is a spiritual path? Ok for you it may be. But for many it isnt.

Also who are you to say it wont be long before Christian witches see the error of their ways. Maybe they like their belief in Christ

Christianity has been in Britain for longer than any of the major religions. It is the basis of many of our laws and is certainly responsible for the way most people (yes even pagans) view the world. So to ask what it has to do with us is a bit odd.

Also many of the occult practises used today have their basis in Christianity.

So its actually a mute point

As for not mentioning it to the Vicar ...........

Also who are you to say it wont be long before Christian witches see the error of their ways. Maybe they like their belief in Christ.

Would it be flippant to suggest delusion?

Sure there are a lot of occult things that may have come through xianity or Freemasonry tis true. But Xianity is only lending stuff nicked from previous pre Xian religions any hows. There is nowt original in xianity. I expect you are well aware yourself. As for the influence of xianity in this country it is really sad that the Brits considered it in the first place. Or were they forced?

Looking at the time now shouldn't you be singing yer praises to the Lord in that cold stone ediface very soon. It is Sunday after all.

Mod hat ON

Pantheistkeith there is no need to throw insults about at others because their views do not match your own...



Why not? I know a few who are open minded enough to accept other beliefs be they pagan or any other faith. My parents being two of them for a start...

The word witch has very different connotations today from the ones it had in the past.

In pre-industrial times it would have been extremely rare and unlikely for anyone in the community not to have been a Christian. Religion wasn't something you chose, it was just part of the social structure. Nonetheless pretty much everyone also believed in what is now called "unauthorised belief": all the sorts of superstitions, weather and farming lore, faery beliefs, use of magic and divination, and so on. But not everyone who worked magic did so altruistically (though most did, or at least commercially). Some people were believed to do so malefically. That is what your mediaeval folks considered to be witchcraft.

So the short answer to your question is that yes, everyone convicted of witchcraft in Christian Europe was a Christian.

But what we understand today as witchcraft encompasses the total of unauthorised belief (normally but not necessarily with an additional Pagan religious layer on top).

I don't think that most Christians would consider someone who practises Paganism to be acceptable as part of their congregation, and I suspect that most of them would take a dim view of witchcraft, even in the modern context.

But that's something you'd have to talk to Christians about.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

Keith I'm not going to rise to the bait, but I do not have the problem with Christianity that you appear to have.

I admit I did when I was young, feisty and full fervour for my new found belief, but these days I am of the opinion theres good and bad in all religions and frankly over the past few years I've seen more evidence of Pagan intolerance than I have ever done amongst Christians

Oh and thats Christ, not X.

This bloke might be ok
http://www.assap.org/newsite/htmlfiles/Lionel.html

*nods*

Such people who effected cures, curses etc, would have been considered at the
very extreme of what was considered acceptable - I think that even the most tolerant of Christian nowadays would consider a person who did the same, to be at the very edge of tolerable.

But having said that, there was a church minister up in Lewis - a Free Presbyterian Minister at that - who put a curse on a cinema when it was going to show "Jesus Christ Superstar" - the cinema burnt down.

And what else is exorcism if not a form of witchcraft?

I didn't mean to insult anyone.

All this talk of xianity makes my horns itch anyhows

I really don't ever consider this xain thingy at all unless someone raises their opinion on the blummin thing. I dont have a problem with the ridiculous. Never have had.
It just surprises me how many folk get uppitty if I say what my conclusion on this mad stuff is. They have done a good job is all I can say then
Am I the only one who really doesnt get it at all when it comes to this middle eastern madness? If I am, I find that a bit daunting on a Pagan forum.

I'm not, nor ever have said that Christianity and witchcraft are easy bedmates, just that it is absolutely possible.

One only has to look toward some of the voudon practised in Haiti (say) to see how the two can live in relative harmony

Keith I saw what was looking like an interesting discussion earlier (when having a nose) and thought I would start a thread.

I wasnt insulted, nor am I uppity. But it isnt so much that they have done a good job, but more that pagan propaganda is hell bent on re writing the last 2000 years.

I know Christianity stole a lot of its beliefs from Pagans and I know it isnt the original religion of these Isles, but it seems to me that people want to deny its place in our history and thats just wrong.

IF we are supposing witches have been around since ancient Pagan times, then we also have to believe they continued to be around through the Christian period which followed.

Nothing else makes any sense.

Whatsmore we dont have any definitive idea of what was here before our Christianisation because it was an oral tradition and so we have no historical documents on which to make any judgement.

For my tuppence worth, in ye olden days of yore, there were probably untold women practising herbalism, folk magics etc, they were probably all good Christian ladies, and would have thrown a hissy fit a the label 'witch'.

I think the craft has always been, its just the labels that change.

I think that today while you could be Christian and a witch, I do think that you would struggle, that there would be a conflict of interests. Just as gay Christians struggle having their position accepted by the main stream. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's imopssible, but certainly not an easy path to walk.

Q

*nods* it's surprising how many are like this when folks get chatting ~ it's not all pitchforks and torches.... from either side


yep....... the old man hogs all the quilt for a start and it really is damned annoying when he forgets to turn the flamin alarm off in the morning

Personally, I dont think Xian Witches make any logical sense at all!
Christians have their way of performing Magick its called Prayer!
The Witches of old were NOT Xian, to convert this Country to Xianity, all that had to be done was convert the King! No one would have bothered to ask what the Peasants thought!
Most Witches were Peasants! or Common Folk, like us if you prefer!
I strongly suspect the Witches would have strongly claimed to be Xian when it saved a Ducking or worse, it does mean 'Wise' after all!
The Xians, converted the old Pagan sites to Xian ones, look closely at some old boundary walls and you can still see the original Circle, they carved crosses on our Phallic Menhirs, they nicked our Festivals, they paid Pagans to build their Churches, hence all the Green Men and Rude Screens!
They have done sod all to benefit Pagans ever! Unless you count trying to kill us all!
I dont want squat to do with Xian Witches, its just Stupidity, they are weak willed and too scared to leave their Church in case they are wrong!
The vast majority of Pagans Ive met are Ex Catholics as they were drawn to the Heavy Symbolism also common in Catholicsm. But at least they had the guts to give up their Old Beliefs!

Plus whats all this talk I hear about Witchcraft being a Craft?
When did you all sit around making Cards, knitting, etc? Thats not Witchcraft!
How do you define this Craft stuff? Does it involve Magick? or paper doilies?

Is that the only meaning of craft you understand, CornishShaman ?

There are many forms of craft - even dictionary.com came up with a load

1. an art, trade, or occupation requiring special skill, esp. manual skill: the craft of a mason.
2. skill; dexterity: The silversmith worked with great craft.
3. skill or ability used for bad purposes; cunning; deceit; guile.
4. the members of a trade or profession collectively; a guild.

However, you will find many witches who use skills such as sewing, cooking, growing as part of or to enhance their craft of being a witch.

And just because someone is a witch, doesnt mean they cant be christian just because you hate the christians, which you so clearly do. What's the difference between someone doing a spell and calling on Hecate, or Thor, or Brigid to assist them, and someone doing a spell and calling on jesus or god ? A god is a god when all said and done.

And what about the witches who use 'anti-christian' imagery ?

I am not christian, I never have been, I have always been pagan, and always been a witch having been brought up that way, but I have come across christians who didnt understand witchcraft and associated us with the devil, I also know gay christians who reconcile their faith with their sexuality by looking beyond the imposed doctrine into the actual teachings and here in Lincoln we even have Lesbian vicars, would you believe.

This is, after all the 21st century.

But maybe you should do a little more research on witchcraft, before you so adamantly condemn its practice and take the p*!$ out of those who practice it - no matter what their beliefs. Religious hatred is not to be tolerated, in my opinion.

Hail Jesus ! can you help me with this Hex please

Hmmm. Not all witches choose to hex. But just because they dont hex doesnt mean they couldnt if they tried.

And also - I think you will find that jesus wasnt as completely benevolent as he is oft made out to be - if it was justified he was capable of being nasty. And lets face it, the christian god isnt a nice kindly one, it doesnt take much knowledge of the bible to realise that - so why not ask them to assist with a hex ?

Hate! thats a strong word! I dont Hate anyone!
Not worth the energy!
But you cant deny history! I only quoted some facts!
No, I dont hate them, I was simply expressing my Opinion!
Still not intrested in hanging with Xian Witches though! My choice!
Yes the Son of God is a God, so if it works for them fine!
But I prefer the Sun God!
As for not understanding the word Craft! I just wanted to see how others were defining it!
Which worked pretty well! thanx Moongazer!

I don't get it. Every village had it's church, many since norman times. The country WAS christian. This is fact. So much so that church attendance was obligatory in some periods. You either believed and went to church or you didn't and went to church. Where were all these witches? What were they? The fairytale remnants of a pagan society living on the outskirts of society? Maybe way back during the conversion but later, no way. As today there were christains and non but all these witches...? how come the literature isn't full of them?
I've done a lot of genealogy in my time, back to the 15th and 16th centruries and looked through lots of documents of these periods and they all mention Piers who was the peasant who removed the straw from bessie's mane and Ron who delivered the turnips but nowhere is mention made of anyone living outside the community for any reason at all. This would mean that witches if they existed were outlaws. So if they were such how come there are no documents about them either. The highwaymen and common criminals are there if you look, withces not.
The history of england is christian. like it or not that's how it is. Wanting to believe in witches and how they suffered against christian tyranny is one thing but getting actual factual evidence is another. I haven't seen any yet (though i'd love to find some) and i've had a good hard look.
To my mind it's very easy, just take a look at any so-called isolated 'backward' italian, greek or spanish mountain or island community and you have the same things as in the past. A heathy mix of christian and pagan and it's so rooted that nobody even notices.

Absolutely.

It would be lovely to imagine this unbroken line of "secret" knowledge and underground worship of the Old Gods, but I just don't believe that that was the case. The Christianisation of Britain took place so early on that the likelihood of any surviving pagan belief, passed through generations, without detection, or encountering a generation who for whatever reason felt it best to convert, is just a pipe-dream, frankly.

Practising witchcraft (as we understand witchcraft today) was perfectly permissable provided you invoked God and not the Devil. You've only got to look at the wealth of information there is about charms, superstitions, folklore, myth down the centuries to see that they were all Christian.

An interesting topic that I feel I can waffle on...

I myself have noted a growing spread of Christo-Pagan / Christo-Wicca websites, the owners of whom have had their ideals propagated by the same key American authors, usually advocating the popular misconception that just because a belief system can be more tolerant (or at least less objectionable) to another's religious beliefs then it must be possible for the two to have enough common ground to spawn a cross (Ooo a pun ) between the two.

The American fear of the national faith can be found on any Witch/Pagan/Wicca styled web-forum with teens repeated posing the question of how they can resolve their new found interests with that of their "allegedly" devout parents, and this is where I feel the Christo-Wicca/Pagan authors have discovered their niche market - follow your practices but keep your parental faith; gain absolution for what you are doing and all will be well in the eyes of God. Everything and anything is possible (something which is deeply imbeded into white middle class American culture) and if someone says you can't do something or contradicts your opinion then you have the right to brand them as intolerant.

There is also a noted element of egotism in the combining of religions on the internet ... you might have noted that followers state they are a Christian Pagan or a Christian Wiccan blatantly, or proudly, hinting at their parental roots with one set of practices annexed on to another.

However if an individual has been brought up in a Wiccan family but then through their own choice makes decision that Christianity fits with their belief or politics you might expect to see themselves being described as a Pagan Christian or a Wiccan Christian, but no all you see is the word Christian usually accompanied with some rhetoric as to all the circumstances as to why that individual had previously been led astray or fallen by the wayside.

When the UK was conquered by the Catholic Church the general populus was Pagan as defined in its original context of country dweller, but I have yet to find any historian us the term Pagan-Christian.

Now in relation to Witchcraft being a craft (not to be confused with Craft the commonly used abbreviation for Witchcraft) - if you consider that the defintion of craft just means a set of acquired or learnt skills then yes this would be correct. However, as has been stated Christian texts always use the term Witch to mean the opposite of that which is good and holy, therefore it would seen oxomoronic to describe oneself as a Christian Witch (there is another debate here as to the reclaimation of the word Witch and historical associations).

Would it not be more accurate to describe a Christian who uses elements of pre-Christian magic as "Christian-craft" and not Christian Witchcraft ???

Hello Comfrey!!

First of all, it's good to have you back I see you already met the Pagan propaganda machine and the Christian haters

I do agree with you, totally possible to practice witchcraft and be a Christian.

I don't involve my Gods in Witchcraft so is it so inconceivable that a Christian can do the same?

Regardless of era or religion, there will always be those that are born with certain abilities and given the choice between going with it and seeing where it leads or living in fear of it. A witch is born not made.

Woozle, while I think an unbroken line of Witchery is a pile of toss, I do think that there were people that just did stuff instinctively in their own communities to whom the term witch applied. Maybe they may have learned a bit from someone just like them at some point but there wouldn't have been any uniformity of practice. They probably wouldn't have considered themselves Pagan either.