So....does it exist and just how much of our beliefs are down to this PPM?

I'll start.....

(insert grotesquely huge number here) witches were burned for their beliefs in the burning times.

Discuss

Ah The Burning Time ......... Starts screaming "never again"

The Pagan Propaganda machine is alive and well and living mainly online.

The problem is a lot of neo pagans feel the HAVE to hate Christians for some reason or another.

Hell I cant say I'm particularly keen on a lot and as you know Els I have a lot more reason than most to truly despise them

But I dont. Nor do I hate Muslims or Jews. I hate some of them and I hate some of their teachings. But despite what anyone thinks Paganism has more than its fair share of bigots.

But even those dont worry me over much until they try telling me I'm wrong. Or re writing history for their own ends.

Or worse telling me what a witch is or not as the case may be

Oh, I'd say it, the PPM, definitely exists.

"We all lived in a matriarchal, peace-loving, agrarian society before those nasty Christians came along",

and

"Those nasty Christians STOLE all of our festivals and customs!"



or, my pet peeve: "an unbroken (witchcraft) lineage back to neolithic times"

I am from a long line of hereditry witches and we have traced our lineage way back to a cave in mesopotamia some 6,000 years ago and we are royalty too and also descended from egyptian kings on my mother's side.
I don't like christianity because it's not a real religion like ours and also most of you are not real witches because you haven't done enough courses on line or otherwise.
If i am really honest, and i hate to admit it, i have over the last few years read and heard much much more rubbish and bigotry and one-upmanship and loathe-thy-neighbour from pagans than i have ever heard from christians over most of my adult life. Odd that.

We all come from the Goddess, tra la la, la la, la la...

Etcetera.

To be fair, Woozle, Xians are in the main MUCH more subtle about it, and you need to be well clued-up in the local church to understand who stiffed whom and how, and when you learn it, it makes you gasp and want to run away.

Pagans don't have a coherent set of social values, so have to be a lot more up-front about it. "I'm an eco-warrior, me. I fought for (insert value of choice) which is more than you lot did, so I win."

Frankly, the people I value are those who live good and kindly lives, and when others (who benefitted from their kindness) ask and learn that they are pagans, it makes them stop and think. I've seen it happen and couldn't help but think "Score!". Armchair pagans, if you like, but good examples all the same.

*never again the burning times*

*all stone circles are pagan temples and are ours*

*proper pagans don't go in churches*

yep the PPM exists and yep Paganism has more than its fair share of bigots and fundies.

I do think a lot of that can be put down to being part of the conversion process. A phase that all Pagans seem to go through. It's fair enough, changing a world view isn't easy.




I know Comf. I'm not struck on them either and I have had more experience than most with the church seeing as I used to work for the Catholic church. They knew my beliefs and yes there were times where I had a few run-ins with nuns and priests but having said that I have come across some absolutely lovely Christians and I see no reason to spend so much time and energy hating them and slagging them off.



Usually a lot more poisonous too....



Hahahahahahaha!!!! The worst crime!

Ooooh oooh, one more for the Pagan propaganda thing....

That certain Witchcraft groups know exactly the true way that Witchcraft was practised in the villages of Britain and for a price you too can learn their ways!!!!

Sorry Woozle I really hate to be petty, but 6000 years ago the Mesopotamians didnt live in caves, more like mud and straw huts, buildings etc.

Mesopotamia covered a multitude of races, The oldest being the Ubaids and Sumerians but there were also the Elamites, Hurrians, Hittites and Akkadians to name but a few.

winks

Hiyas woozle, for some reason i like that name makes me smile:d

gilgamesh

For me the worst type of pagan is one whom will just practice hate against christians, for past crimes.. lol I can only say get over yourself YOU were not persecuted YOU were never a slave. If you want things to change then be an active and positive FORCE for change!

Lol PPM=Remember what I was talking about a while back, if you think like a victim you will remain a victim!

A better quote is..........if you think you should be punished then you will come to merit punishment!

I mean it is like myself moaning and winging about the EVIL Martu (Elamites) invading Sumer=pppppppppht Tosh!

I soppose the PPM is looking for sympathy, but not in this corner not I!

We can complain about the Malius Malcalfarium (hammer of witches) as much as we want, but to change things we have to sit up and be counted and provide a positive force for change!

PPM=No change =eventual stagnation and death

So in short yes the PPM exists, do I agree with it? certainly not!

gilgamesh

I love your heathens against hate! Where can i sign up:D

As for online training =lmao
gilgamesh

Heathens Against Hate is a Myspace group that's an Anti-nazi campaign against Neo-Nazi scum using Heathenry as justification for their disgusting political views.

If there is one group of people that I actually hate it's nazis.

As for the PPM, I agree that we as Pagans in going along with it are just propagating it. As a community we need to 'rethink' several of our ideas about ourselves and get some self belief.

Gods if you were here i would give you a nice biiiiig friendly hug for that comment of "As a community we need to 'rethink' several of our ideas about ourselves and get some self belief."
what I have been thinking for years.

Yeah last time I was in the united states , Atalanta South Georgia, some Nazi scum tried to brainwash me into their cult/sect whatever. , said f-off you jack-boot wearing, Herman Goerring cross-dressing red pickup truck, shot-gun toting nazi, squeel ling a pig having nazi f*** . Sorry I can really rant when im peeved

Yup I know what you mean

Yeah I think those who make too much of the crimes of Chritanity (and makre an issue of it all the time) need to get a serious grip!


gilgamesh

No no, it was definitely a cave. A very hot cave apparently, lots of sand and stuff and it was full of tablets

re the name - That's what woozles is all about, making as many people as possible smile and seriously pissing off the rest.

GILGAMESH: My pickup truck is orange.

EA/ENKI

I’m inclined to see monotheism as just another one of those social developments in course of human evolution. Such unifications may have worked well against marauding bands of renegades, but like any order that becomes too rigid, inevitably defeats its own ability to adapt. Thus the feudal system inevitably failed through too much inbreeding. Economies tend to fail through too much hording of wealth. These days church and state are no longer able to adapt to dwindling resources through overpopulation, and so on. It is a simple law of nature, that wherever there is stasis, there comes division. Thus any belief system is no less subject to decline, should it also fail to realize the necessary changes.

Agree with the perfectly just criticisms of the Pagan (or perhaps more correctly Wiccan) propaganda machine but I wouldn't want to close down rational discussion, or even worse, move over into the equally fluffy newage corner where all kinds of spiritual beliefs merge into one lump of splodgy psychobabble. Let's just be honest.

No, Paganism in ancient times wasn't a pacifist, nature-loving, Goddess-worshipping, thing that had its lineage in the caves (sorry Woozle...)

Yes, Christianity did put down Paganism quite atrociously when it came into domination.

No, that wasn't at the time of the witch-craze.

Need we say more?

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

I think you're confusing me with someone else Fred. I don't remember saying that and i most certainly don't believe it

QED!

Ffred

Sorry Ffred, maybe i should use more smileys, i was trying to be funny.
The only thing i've got thats hereditry is the nose.

refreshing change to the Xian propaganda machine.

Oh come come now! That's just a little bittie harsh, and well you know it. Naughty PK!

Besides, it could be an indication that you are falling by the wayside and becoming a tad dissident - to say nothing of dissing others' chosen faith/s. Dear, oh dear. The Propaganda machine could even be accused of working!

I suggest a nice cold bath and a prayer to whatever Gods/Goddesses you revere to ask for forgiveness. It worked for me.

When you enter a church service you may be asked to make a donation.

When you enter a ritual sacred site you will be charged an entry fee!

ROTFL

Pagan Prostitution

My current favorite is that it was the Norse who founded England......... No, the Norse were around from 400AD onwards but by the end of the 800AD they were a spent force and had converted to xianism. England was founded around 920AD.

I think many of these ppm ideas can be traced back to Margaret Murry and her ’witch cult’ thesis. I’m a bit more optimistic with regards to the ppm in that many of the ideas are loosing force, for example many Pagans, witches and Wiccans have let go of the ‘burning times’ myth. As I see it one of biggest problems that face contempary Paganism is that of authors, websites and public individuals who continue to propagate this ‘fakelore’, from what I have heard $ilver Ravenwolf would be a prime example of this.

Also I would like to add:

‘ paganism is the oldest religion and we do this/don’t do this because this is because this is what ancient pagans did/didn’t do.’

Stop trying to live in the past, I don’t care what ancient pagans did because I am not an ancient pagan and the 18th C isn’t all that old.

Wow, do you get those too??!!!

The one I get all the time - "But you have to be black to practice Vodou!" *looks around for the nearest wall to bash head against*

In fact, as I'm so fond of posting, the historical development of Vodou owes almost as much to Catholicism, Native American belief, Freemasonry and European paganism as it does to African practices.

I know a of a white chap who went to Haiti and he was initiated as a Voudou Priest. The name he goes by is Drac Uber. Do you know him? He often does talks on his experiences in Voudou etc. I have had a good chat with him in the past about the Loa etc. By the way he is a witch who was taken in that direction, still a witch he told me.

He is at the Mercian Gathering. http://www.merciangathering.com/merciangathering.htm

I do not believe there is such a thing as a “hereditary witch” especially à la 1734. As someone mentioned before, “witchcraft” was a popular misconception amongst the god-fearing superstitious- a derogatory term. Of course women, especially midwives, were always suspect of being manipulative with their domestic talents. It’s the old biblical thing about Lilith and her sexual guiles. Also suspect were those with epilepsy or anything that didn’t conform. Then all it took was a little jealousy, angst and religious hysteria, to assume some supernatural cause. Look at the big conspiracy the Nazis tried to make of Semitic religion. Things like this still happen in the Bible Belt of the US or any remote god-fearing community on the planet. Any excuse in the name of righteousness. In this respect Wicca is no exception, trying to blame it all on the burning times. The real number of the beast is ignorance. Any belief system is capable of that, given the opportunity. I've felt the brunt of it myself on this forum for my pragmatic approach, but the fact is I don't need to be mystified to realize the cunning of certain forces at work. That doesn't make them any less fascinating.

What I do believe is that psychic ability can be to some degree inherited, but like most traits, dependent on environment and circumstance for it to develop. While DNA retains lessons learned by previous generations, without exploring one’s own consciousness they may never be realized in this one. No great secret mystical formula that can do that for you, rather, a matter of overcoming fear to realize what your instincts are trying to tell you. It’s that only real line of reliable communication with the unknown world around you. In essence, use your brain. The only real magic device you have. Everything else is useless without it.

quote
Things like this still happen in the Bible Belt of the US or any remote god-fearing community on the planet. Any excuse in the name of righteousness /quote

Yer right

That was my first introduction to America (same place as my last post) I landed in South Georgia, Whilst I were still in the airport, I were talking to this dear old American couple (lovely people). Wehn all of a sudden a great big hulking texan gloyt with a Stetson hat says........whats it with you , you English-Jew boy?

To which I replied excuse me how am I Jewish?

You have a large nose

To which , my gods man you came straight out of Deliverance dont you? THis nose comes from a long line of English/Norman Atristocratic people (hence my name named after the battle of crecy, where my ancestor Sir Hugh Cressey). I also said not there is anything wrong with being jewish, but ive heard that 99% of American men are circumsised and thats also a Jewish Custom...........so what does that make you?

To which the whole of the airport lounge clapped and the yahoo billy, joe bob ray whatever his name was walked off in a huff.

Hiyas Mr PPP so'k to have pickup truck, solong as you dont spout foul cr*p as that gloyt!::P:

That was my first introduction to America, I flew from there to the other side of the country (later) to San Fan and from there to Santa Cruz, where I went into a so-called Irish Theme pub, called the Poet and the Patriot where they were openly collecting for Noraid...............

gilgamesh

Im afraid I can't tell you my propaganda because you need to be an initiated grand high wassermaface and it is secret information.

Do not forget Ye Ancient Arte too

From ye olde villages of Britain?

Especially Thee Arthurian one's

Ahhh those be the most ainshunt!

The Magick ones?

Of course Madam!!!

..and the ye olde worlde magickya fer gebinners.........yu two can be a worlde witche............FOR A PRICE of just $199.95 plus Tax!

grins

gilgamesh

And that'll be another $29.99 if you want to have a certificate.

$50 postage and packing....

falls over laughing!

a certificate.. lol can you imagine the job interview or C.V? qualifications please sir/madam??? ermmmmmmmmm ahemmmmm well im qualified to be a witch, look heres the certificate! ahem errrrrrrrrrrrrrrm yyyyyyyyes kindly just wait there sir/madam whilst we call the green van with square wheels (so it doesnt roll UP the hill!):D:D:

gilgamesh

How about "you cant be a pagan (or a witch) unless you worship a god and goddess"

And paganism is a religion - oooh thats a blood boiler for sure !!!

And lets not forget heathenism is a religion

The one that gets me is the 'The three-fold Goddess-Maiden, Mother, Crone' and how every goddess known to humankind is split neatly into 1 of those categories

I have to disagree about the existence of a 'pagan propaganda machine'. This presupposes far more coherence and co-operation within paganism than can ever be the case. Organised political groups have a propaganda machine. Pagan propaganda is spread, not by a unified machine, but by anybody who takes a fancy to being a propagandist. There is consolation in the thought that nobody can sensibly believe all the rampant, freespirited, blithely contradictory assertions about paganism that make their way into the media.

Dear Elswyth,



OK. I think the PPM is far less significant, than most of the folk who've posted on this thread seem to. It seems mostly confined to the internet and to some of the dafter publications, and much of it stems from folk who have little connection to the real-life Pagan community but seem driven by a need to be 'visible' - and preferably 'visibly persecuted'.

I've been an administrator in a Pagan organisation for many years, which sheds an interesting light on this as membership data can give you an insight into attitudes of the rather large proportion of Pagans who live quiet, solid, constructive lives and show no inclination to spout nonsense from the rooftops. On that basis I'm pretty confident that:

*The overwhelming majority of Pagans do not hate Christians. They may have grave reservations about the influence of institutionalised religion on society, but most seem to recognise that Christians come in all sorts - much like Pagans - and broadly support efforts to improve relations between Paganism and other religions. Many Pagans have Christian friends and friends from other faiths. In particular, most Pagans IME show no inclination to define their beliefs in contrast to Christianity.

* Most Pagans have at least a casual interest in 'real' history and do not regard 'burning times' mythology as the unadulterated truth. Besides that, the beliefs about pre-Christian matriarchal utopias derived from Gimbutas and the like which are so common in the Feminist Goddess-Spirituality part of Paganism often seem to be more about quite self-consciously imagining a fictionalised version of the past to strengthen efforts to build a better future, than about history per se.

* Most Pagans, and especially most Wiccans from the initiatory Traditions - are very sceptical of claims to unbroken lineage stretching back to Neolithic times, or even in some cases last week .

Yes, there are certainly some vocal lunatics in Paganism but the proportion of these is no higher - and often significantly lower - than you'll find in other religions. And our lunatics usually restrict themselves to ludicrous claims about their own power, status and knowledge, or to bizarre historical assertions. They usually don't go around trying to incite hatred of other beliefs, or promoting misogynist agendas.

BB,

John Macintyre

quote

*The overwhelming majority of Pagans do not hate Christians. They may have grave reservations about the influence of institutionalised religion on society, but most seem to recognise that Christians come in all sorts - much like Pagans - and broadly support efforts to improve relations between Paganism and other religions. Many Pagans have Christian friends and friends from other faiths. In particular, most Pagans IME show no inclination to define their beliefs in contrast to Christianity.


end quote

Here here lad!

Goes to show what Elswth and I and others were speaking off earlier. Beginner pagans feel the need to feel victimised by the mainstream religions (Christianity in particular)

To put it another way and this will be rather blunt (being a Yorkshireman) I usually say YOU were not chased by an angry mob holding torches (snickers at this=hammer house of horror flash back:P) YOU were never persecuted, just get a grip lad/lass!

I guess these pagans are like the equivalent to EMO's in way, they are ever so depressed about life and using EMO or Paganism to rebell!

I have no particular love for Christanity but no real hate either (well maybe the Malius Malcalfarium) but thats it. Paganism is not a way of life or a religion (or heathenry as I am) rather it is a state of THOUGHT!

We as humans have a place in the Universe an important one but not more so than any other form life. Humanity is too arrogant and takes itsself far too seriously (such is the way of those whom follow order) Humanity needs to take a look and learn to laugh at itsself, then maybe just maybe we can see how rediculous the pagan victimisation thing is! I think those type of pagans need to take a few lessons out of Enki's book or the Asatru Equivalent Odin's book and should learn to have a laugh at themselves once in a while.it keeps you sane:D:D

Going back to the above paragraph i think humanity is far too ORDER based and needs to be injected with a little bit of chaos to makes things fun!

Which leeds me to my definition of chaos and order

Chaos and order are neither good nor evil
they arent anything of the sort, those concepts are limited by humanity and by its Ethics of a person and Ethos of a society.

Remember the rule about higher state of thought. Something is created in the imgaination and directed into being by the will.

Order:

Is by definition PURE will is is the ability to focus something to a point to bring anything (if we use the cause and effect anology) into an EFFECT. However order is too static and cannot change, therefore it dies!

Chaos is random change, and wonderful creativity, it can think it can plan and create . Chaos is 'CAUSE; it can imagine, however by its very nature it lacks the ability to bring those random changes and creativity to a single solid point (like the will of order) therefore chaos is neutralised.

So just like Ying/Yang Chaos and Order need each other to exist! We as a human race as i have previously said have leant FAR too much towards the side of order and that humanity takes itself far too seriously (such is the nature of order). Humanity needs to strike a balance and we need to learn to laugh at ourselves a little more! We need some creativity and chaos in our lives to achieve perfect balance!

To sum up pagans whom use it to rebell or use it so they can feel victimised are just another facet of order.

To me the two deities that are the very definition of PERFECT balance between chaos and order (they embody it) is

Enki of the sumerian faith
and
ODIN of the Asatru faith

just a thought

gilgamesh

Well Heathenism as a term referring to Northern Tradition Paganism could probably be classed as a religion more than Paganism could simply because there are more commonalities in deity and such.

I recognise a lot of the types of "bad" paganism that people outlined on this thread -too many types!- but are they really a PPM?
I would have said they are just the same types (with different jargon) that you get in any religion - flakes, liars, sheep, fundies etc
I have no problem with christians at all, I don't agree with the religion but as people they are no worse or better than anyone else. human nature is the same all over. lots of my friends are all different religions and they are all normal - some flaws some virtues I don't think pagans are much different, maybe a higher share of flakes but then it's easier to call yourself pagan without any standard to apply to what is a pagan, iykwim.


but also I think very few pagans are ignorant of the facts now, eg that wicca isn't an ancient religion or that there wasn't a matriarchal golden age and they do try to correct these facts if they see them only sometimes there will be groups that want to believe untruths - you can't do much about that. and then there will always be peoepl who poohpooh everything - which is pretty boring