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woozle
I often discuss topics on UKP with friends. We had an interesting discussion last night which i thought i might post here.
There seem to be a lot of people in direct contact with gods, spirits, faeries, the dead, ancestors, reincarnation, genetic memory and so on either by trance or mediation of simply by straight seeing things and meeting things and geting visited and so on.
The question which arose was with all this contact activity going on, can the information received be proven in the real world?
We have a friend here who sees the dead. Holding her hand i have seen the dead she sees. She talks to the dead, and yet can tell nothing about their existence. She is in contact with her great great grandmother yet knows nothing about her family, names, dates, nothing tangible and nothing demonstrable.
Not a shingle shred of information about past events or lives which can be proven that i or my friends involved in the discussion have ever seen or read (except once when later archaeological discoveries coincided exactly with the findings of a pagan in a burial mound). We have a medium here who contacts the dead too, with names, dates etc. but none of these correspond to the BMDs and census records available for the years in question.
I believe my friend, who was my companion for a while, who sees the dead. SHE however doesn't believe others. She says give me proof and i'll start believing, i said (in the past) you give me proof and i'll believe you, and she did so i do. So the question, in the words of another friend last night (excluding the pissy tone and angry face), "how many of your pagan friends can actually demostrate anything concrete? How do you know it is not just a product of your fertile minds? If it is possible to talk to the dead etc as they claim, how come archaeology is not light years further on than it is now and the mysteries of what objects were for or places were for are still mysteries? and (something i agree with) how come all these sprits etc change depending on who you are talking to?"
Over to you. Any help in this matter welcome for presumibly further heated discussion next week smile.gif

Vix
QUOTE(woozle @ Jun 25 2008, 05:50 AM)

Not a shingle shred of information about past events or lives which can be proven
*



Have you gone all Sean Connery on us?

"To the sceptic no proof is possible, to the believer no proof is necessary"*







*Or summat like that.... rolleyes.gif laugh.gif
woozle
QUOTE(Vix @ Jun 25 2008, 06:37 AM)
QUOTE(woozle @ Jun 25 2008, 05:50 AM)

Not a shingle shred of information about past events or lives which can be proven
*



Have you gone all Sean Connery on us?

"To the sceptic no proof is possible, to the believer no proof is necessary"*







*Or summat like that.... rolleyes.gif laugh.gif
*




biggrin.gif true, but it doesn't hold much water when you are the only pagan arguing the toss in a group of non-pagans smile.gif .
Quasizoid
That depends on what kind of proof you're looking for. As these things are a manifestation of physical alter-reality, proof is in the energy signatures wherever these things arise. What is detectable by various measuring instruments however, will not translate them into the shape as we perceive them. These are basically "signals" (frequencies and resonances) that individuals with an acute sensory acumen can translate into images and speech. The receptors for this form of communication is in your sense of smell, but differ from the olifactory ones. They detect EMF, humidity, biochemical changes and a host of other environmental signatures- the basic center of our "instincts" and operate mostly on a subliminal level. smile.gif
woozle
Ok, 2 quick examples.
I received information about a certain english local god, complete with name and image in a sort of unwanted dream/trance state. The 'contact' was so strong I have been hunting for this little god, both name and image for most of my adult life. It is to me very real and i use the statue i made as a sort of household protector and he works very well i must say. I met a well known witch who i asked about the god, she 'got in contact' with him and told me all sorts of stuff even down to the the name of the tribe who the god belonged to, the area (wiltshire, how convenient) what sort of god he was etc. She was very very precise and didn't charge me either. Pity then that even contacting archaeologists and anthropologists and reading every damn book and pamphlet and journal on the subject I have never found a shred of evidence that she was correct. This to me is typical (even though i am a 'believer'... sort of).
There is a lot of debate on this forum about gods and witches and other stuff which has a common theme, nobody seems to know what happened in the past. It's all conjecture. A simple question like "were those killed during the burning times witches or not" provokes debate. Why, if there are so many who have the gift as they claim, hasn't the question been resolved yonks ago by asking the people were killed directly.
This is the essence of the discussion last night, that and tarot which i will save for a rainy day when i've calmed down about it biggrin.gif .
Comfrey
The quick answer is you cant prove it. and so the question which follows is "why bother"

I have a friend who cannot believe communion with the dead because she has never experienced such. Even when you give her "proof" as much as is possible, she still says its coincidence or what ever.

For people like this there is never proof, so again why bother, you just get yourself all bothered.

But in hers and others like her defence, theres a lot said on pagan boards which is so totally out there that it really does beggar belief and so many charlatans making grand claims (Akorah any one) that those who are actually who they say they are and those who have been given the gift of "sight" are piled together with all the dross and so no one is believed any more.

Its like I said before its all become so diluted with the sheer number of wannabes that we are all in danger of being tossed aside as deluded.

Even I'm so disillusioned with it all that sometimes I even doubt myself ohmy.gif
Tas Mania
Well I don't doubt myself any more - though I have had a few head scratchingly odd things to try and decipher/come to terms with in the past!

I wouldn't bother trying to prove or justify any of my experiences either, as it's not worth the hassle. Besides, many of them are intensely personal, and IMO best kept that way. Sometimes I'll share with similarly minded folks (as here) to see what their opinions are, or if they have had similar experiences. Simply because I'm curious.

People believe, or not. It's never been my way to attempt to persuade or to "kiss and tell"! (Better things to do with my energies!)
Quasizoid
Yes, well the problem could be your witch friend. I'm not inclined to rely on second parties myself, and do investigate the information I receive from such manifestations. So far I have been able to verify the historical existence of all the "spirits" I've encountered on location. I've always found my psychic abilities to be far more accurate than mediums who presume theirs to be extra-sensory in the esoterical sense. Without some practical understanding of how these things work, alot tends to get lost or distorted in translation- through the medium's inability to discern the pertinent signatures from all the rest. Bear in mind that the "here and now" is only one of a multitude of different "temporalities" that occupy the same phase space but different wavelengths of time. Rather like trying to tune in an FM station with several repeaters.

QUOTE
Why, if there are so many who have the gift as they claim, hasn't the question been resolved yonks ago by asking the people were killed directly.


It's one thing to have a talent, but to truly develop it, a matter of self discipline in practical application. An artist can have a fantastic ability to imagine things but until they actually give it physical form, it simply is not realized. Of course the problem with mysticism is getting hung up on the endorphine high of being awestruck. Evangelist preachers are not the only ones known to use this tactic of mesmerization. wink.gif
Fred-in-the-Green
I'm a sceptic. Which is an odd thing for a pagan. Let me explain.
I also have a friend who sees dead people. It's one of those things that comes and goes. It's not a case of holding her hand and seeing the same thing. I've discussed this with other pagan friends and they are also sceptical.

Really, the crux of our scepticism is that some of the dead people she sees are Biblical figures. Moses, for instance. There is a nun, and a few others, including her dead husband. Oh yes, and Geronimo. It's a rule of thumb that if you see visions of biblical figures, something is seriously wrong.

One of the reasons we get on with each other is that we both have similar auditory premonitions. They are "deja vu" if you like, or rather "deja aura". The last one I could verify to myself was something I heard one evening and re-heard the following evening. Since then I've had one I'm still waiting for.

The "deja aura" sensations are, I feel the real thing - in that they are bloody useless. They "come true" in their way, but there is no advantage or disadvantage in them. They are just a useless distraction. The only thing they "prove" is that odd things and premonitions do occur.

The visions of the dead are something else. They point my friend to do particular things, some of which land her in trouble.

It's my belief that there are entities on the astral plane, or whatever you choose to call it, that feed on emotion. They latch on to receptive minds and then feed them the kinds of pictures that get a big emotional response. I've been bothered by elementals like this, recognised them for what they were, and saw them off PDQ.

But people who want to believe ("It's my dead husband!") cannot be persuaded that it's an illusion, and the consequence is a rollercoaster of emotion which does no-one in the waking world any good.
Tas Mania
"It's a rule of thumb that if you see visions of biblical figures, something is seriously wrong."

Why? huh.gif
Comfrey
QUOTE(Quasizoid @ Jun 25 2008, 11:46 AM)
It's one thing to have a talent, but to truly develop it, a matter of self discipline in practical application.  An artist can have a fantastic ability to imagine things but until they actually give it physical form, it simply is not realized.

and/OR as I often say, anyone can be taught to play the piano, but not everyone becomes a concert pianist. wink.gif

Comfrey
QUOTE(Fred-in-the-Green @ Jun 25 2008, 11:57 AM)
It's my belief that there are entities on the astral plane, or whatever you choose to call it, that feed on emotion. They latch on to receptive minds and then feed them the kinds of pictures that get a big emotional response. I've been bothered by elementals like this, recognised them for what they were, and saw them off PDQ.

Couldn't agree more smile.gif
woozle
One of my difficulties in life is that i question EVERYTHING. I have extremely well developed masticatory muscles and chew everything over and over and over.
I don't doubt myself. Some things i do and have an interest in doing and others not. Communicating with the dead is not (until last night) something i have ever really had an interest in. Fortunately the friends are just that, friends so there is no convincing on either side, just a good debate. But i continouosly find myself saying stuff from my own pagan point of view and then then thinking whoa! do i really believe that? This leads to more mastication.
I find your answers Q very down to earth, which i really like (sometimes it all shoots way over my head but it feels nice anyway). What you said made a lot of sense to me. There must be a rift in my personality, i believe in many things (though mostly becuase i have personal proof) but flit between the sort-of-scientific and the purely feely stuff. I do quite like it though, it makes life more intersting.
The witch friend was not a friend, but a well-known and respected professional witch still going strong to this day. Now i would do my investigating mysel but have not felt the need enough to start on it.
smile.gif
Fred-in-the-Green
QUOTE(Tas Mania @ Jun 25 2008, 11:59 AM)
"It's a rule of thumb that if you see visions of biblical figures, something is seriously wrong."

Why? huh.gif
*




My first inclination is to say "Seriously? If you don't immediately see why, there's no point in trying to explain".

But let's try. Biblical figures would be a long time dead. 2000 years at least, and in the case of Moses, 4000 years. Our mental pictures of them are collages of stained-glass windows, devotional art and Hollywood films. The chances of their self-representation resembling our imagination of them is remote.

Why would a Biblical figure (a real one) be contacting this person? In the case I mention, the person is not religious, is not concerned with righting the world's wrongs (other than sending the black people home, which sets my teeth on edge), is not concerned with living a better life (other than having more money), is not concerned with human ethics in a practical sense.

What is this Biblical person trying to do? In this case, nothing, other than get a bit of wonderment and adulation. And make the recipient of the visions feel a bit special. They don't comfort her, except in a very insubstantial way, and they certainly don't help her.

It's a sign that the person wants a Messiah figure to haul them out of their difficulties - at very least, a knight in shining armour. Really, it all adds to the weight of evidence that these visions are manipulations and in no sense valid.
Tas Mania
Ta - as I thought!
I wonder if anyone sees folks from the Bronze or Iron Ages? Or earlier?

It always makes me laugh too that so many people who do the past lives thing are perfectly serious about having been Cleopatra or Napoleon! Place musta been overrun with the buggers once!
woozle
QUOTE(Tas Mania @ Jun 25 2008, 12:31 PM)
Ta - as I thought!
I wonder if anyone sees folks from the Bronze or Iron Ages? Or earlier?

It always makes me laugh too that so many people who do the past lives thing are perfectly serious about having been Cleopatra or Napoleon! Place musta  been overrun with the buggers once!
*



Tas, my lovely, please don't start me off on that route!!! biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
Seriously though, if someone could touch the bronze or iron ages think how much we could learn. But it is always as you say famous people. Lots of egyptians, never a stone dragger from stonehenge who could tell us wh...
aarg Stop stop i'm off to cut the grass. laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


Fred - I really liked your last two posts.
Quasizoid
QUOTE(Fred-in-the-Green @ Jun 25 2008, 01:27 PM)
Why would a Biblical figure (a real one) be contacting this person? In the case I mention, the person is not religious, is not concerned with righting the world's wrongs (other than sending the black people home, which sets my teeth on edge), is not concerned with living a better life (other than having more money), is not concerned with human ethics in a practical sense.

What is this Biblical person trying to do? In this case, nothing, other than get a bit of wonderment and adulation. And make the recipient of the visions feel a bit special. They don't comfort her, except in a very insubstantial way, and they certainly don't help her.

It's a sign that the person wants a Messiah figure to haul them out of their difficulties - at very least, a knight in shining armour.  Really, it all adds to the weight of evidence that these visions are manipulations and in no sense valid.


Perhaps even schizophrenic if "their instructions" have a habit of getting her into trouble.
elswyth
QUOTE(Tas Mania @ Jun 25 2008, 11:31 AM)
Ta - as I thought!
I wonder if anyone sees folks from the Bronze or Iron Ages? Or earlier?

It always makes me laugh too that so many people who do the past lives thing are perfectly serious about having been Cleopatra or Napoleon! Place musta  been overrun with the buggers once!
*



I once saw someone from the Bronze age when I sat out on a burial mound. Couldn't understand a bloody word she was saying!
Tas Mania
I too have seen a man from that period. He "spoke thoughts/feelings" inside my head, though he didn't appear to "speak" as such. More a communication of minds.
elswyth
QUOTE(Tas Mania @ Jun 25 2008, 12:43 PM)
I too have seen a man from that period. He "spoke thoughts/feelings" inside my head, though he didn't appear to "speak" as such. More a communication of minds.
*



I've had images and feelings but this one was actually murmuring to me in some language I never heard (not a surprise really)

It just fascinates me how people like Derek Acorah can contact these older ones and he gets it all in English and they understand words like 'higher plane' and talk of energies.....that Sam must be one hell of a universal translator!!! tongue.gif tongue.gif
Quasizoid
QUOTE(woozle @ Jun 25 2008, 01:11 PM)
One of my difficulties in life is that i question EVERYTHING. I have extremely well developed masticatory muscles and chew everything over and over and over.
I don't doubt myself. Some things i do and have an interest in doing and others not. Communicating with the dead is not (until last night) something i have ever really had an interest in. Fortunately the friends are just that, friends so there is no convincing on either side, just a good debate.  But i continouosly find myself saying stuff from my own pagan point of view and then then thinking whoa! do i really believe that? This leads to more mastication.
I find your answers Q very down to earth, which i really like (sometimes it all shoots way over my head but it feels nice anyway). What you said made a lot of sense to me. There must be a rift in my personality, i believe in many things (though mostly becuase i have personal proof) but flit between the sort-of-scientific and the purely feely stuff. I do quite like it though, it makes life more intersting.
The witch friend was not a friend, but a well-known and respected professional witch still going strong to this day. Now i would do my investigating mysel but have not felt the need enough to start on it.
smile.gif
*



No worries, I'm a free flyer too. It's only when I come across something really consistent, that I study its interworking parts.

With spirits of the dead, I feel that a distinction should be made between unresolved souls, and echoes of past events that appear in certain geostatic conditions. I've written a few posts on that, you'll find in the back pages of the Earth Mysteries section. As for what lies beyond, its scarcely comprehensible in our limited terms of dimensionality...but its there.
Eagledance
I can't prove love but I believe in it.
I can't prove that electricty is the flow of electrons but I believe in it.

Do we always need proof? smile.gif
woozle
QUOTE(Eagledance @ Jun 25 2008, 07:21 PM)
I can't prove love but I believe in it.
I can't prove that electricty is the flow of electrons but I believe in it.

Do we always need proof? smile.gif
*



biggrin.gif Not always but at least once would help. biggrin.gif The list of magickal things which have no proof, as i was told, is endless. Thinking about it, it's true too. Well i think it is.
Yarrow
Whilst I have not myself experienced “spiritual phenomena” I keep an open mind to it. This is because I know a number of credible people who experienced such phenomena who I have been given no reason to disbelieve.

One of the things we studied in philosophy was the verification principle - the only meaningful statements are those that can be empirically verified; one of the problems with the verification principle is that an individual cannot empirically verify everything and so many thing must be accepted without empirical evidence e.g. if a scientist tells me the temperature sun is X degrees I have to take their word for it as I cannot empirically experience the temperature of the sun myself.

Here is a question: why do we accept some things people tell us and not others?
Tas Mania
We hear and respond favourably to what we want to hear and respond favourably to.

Shades of the emperor's new clothes, and "my afterlife's better than your afterlife!" o_baeh.gif


o_bolt.gif
Fred-in-the-Green
QUOTE(Quasizoid @ Jun 25 2008, 01:00 PM)

Perhaps even schizophrenic if "their instructions" have a habit of getting her into trouble.
*



Just so.
Snippety
QUOTE
It just fascinates me how people like Derek Acorah can contact these older ones and he gets it all in English and they understand words like 'higher plane' and talk of energies.....that Sam must be one hell of a universal translator!!!


laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

I love Derek & Sam ! That whole show makes me pee with laughing. laugh.gif
elswyth
QUOTE(Snippety @ Jun 26 2008, 11:02 AM)
QUOTE
It just fascinates me how people like Derek Acorah can contact these older ones and he gets it all in English and they understand words like 'higher plane' and talk of energies.....that Sam must be one hell of a universal translator!!!


laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

I love Derek & Sam ! That whole show makes me pee with laughing. laugh.gif
*



I haven't done a Derek impression for years........

'what's that Sam????......Yvie's knickers are blue?.......'

My housemates and I used to love MH live just so we could text bollocks to the programme and see how much got put up on screen.

We always signed our stuff from the Wharton Terrace Massive....

Students huh... laugh.gif
Sophia
QUOTE(Free Choice Maker @ Jun 25 2008, 08:46 PM)
Whilst I have not myself experienced “spiritual phenomena” I keep an open mind to it. This is because I know a number of credible people who experienced such phenomena  who I have been given no reason to disbelieve.

One of the things we studied in philosophy was the verification principle - the only meaningful statements are those that can be empirically verified; one of the problems with the verification principle is that an individual cannot empirically verify everything and so many thing must be accepted without empirical evidence e.g. if a scientist tells me the temperature sun is X degrees I have to take their word for it as I cannot empirically experience the temperature of the sun myself.

Here is a question: why do we accept some things people tell us and not others?
*


But you can empiricly check the scientist's claims yourself. Although you'd probably have to get a university degree and lots of special equipment, it's within the realms of possibility for you, or anybody. That's what science is about - it's always open to testing and verification.
Whereas, with paranormal stuff, people actively stay away from testing and providing proof (like vampires shying away from crucifixes, I always think!). I've even heards claims that sceptics have an "aura" that negates psychic powers!
Whatever it is - if it works and its a real phenomena, it can be tested and measured. Just like electricity, or the Sun's temprature.

Finally, if dead people really can talk to us, why don't they ever tell us anything useful?
opalmoon
els and snip, i had the great pleasure to go and see the big D and sam live. first off we were in the gods so he was in minature to us. ok ill tell what happened it was hilarious.

'sam sam what is it your trying to tell me' .......'there is a lady near and she is a satelite'....... 'yes sam i feel it'........
the camera pans around following him as he walks through the people until he stop by this poor woman, who is very unfortunately going very bald ontop.
at this point my mother sat next to me and said no 'wonder she's a satelite she got a dish on top'
all the people around us cracked up laughing thankfully we were in the gods so it didnt interfere with his chat to sam. laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Julai
I would be VERY interested to hold someone's hand and see what they were seeing. I've never seen anything that made the slightest sense. When I used to read anthroposophy at bedtime, I would get strange images on the edge of sleep, but not people. I've been told about the spirit guides hovering about me, but none of it makes sense. I can't see them, hear them or sense their presence in any way. Even if I did, it might be because I was hallucinating. Are hallucinations connected in any way with an external reality? I suspect not. Apparently an awful lot of people hear voices, too, and not just voices telling them to kill themselves - those are the only ones that become public because they are distressing - what if I was one of those people and heard voices purporting to be from my dead relatives? How would I know whether to pay attention or ignore them or humour them? But I don't, so why am I iinterested - I have no idea! rolleyes.gif
Xalle
QUOTE(woozle @ Jun 25 2008, 04:50 AM)
I often discuss topics on UKP with friends.  We had an interesting discussion last night which i thought i might post here.
There seem to be a lot of people in direct contact with gods, spirits, faeries, the dead, ancestors, reincarnation, genetic memory and so on either by trance or mediation of simply by straight seeing things and meeting things and geting visited and so on.
The question which arose was with all this contact activity going on, can the information received be proven in the real world?
We have a friend here who sees the dead. Holding her hand i have seen the dead she sees.  She talks to the dead, and yet can tell nothing about their existence. She is in contact with her great great grandmother yet knows nothing about her family, names, dates, nothing tangible and nothing demonstrable.
Not a shingle shred of information about past events or lives which can be proven that i or my friends involved in the discussion have ever seen or read (except once when later archaeological discoveries coincided exactly with the findings of a pagan in a burial mound). We have a medium here who contacts the dead too, with names, dates etc. but none of these correspond to the BMDs and census records available for the years in question.
I believe my friend, who was my companion for a while, who sees the dead. SHE however doesn't believe others. She says give me proof and i'll start believing, i said (in the past) you give me proof and i'll believe you, and she did so i do. So the question, in the words of another friend last night (excluding the pissy tone and angry face), "how many of your pagan friends can actually demostrate anything concrete? How do you know it is not just a product of your fertile minds? If it is possible to talk to the dead etc as they claim, how come archaeology is not light years further on than it is now and the mysteries of what objects were for or places were for are still mysteries? and (something i agree with) how come all these sprits etc change depending on who you are talking to?"
Over to you. Any help in this matter welcome for presumibly further heated discussion next week smile.gif
*




I dont understand. Who are you asking for? You? Did your friend ( who you believe) not give you her proof? I mean you say you believe her, so, Im not entirely sure what you are asking. What did you tell your friend who asked the question?

Beyond that wee bit of confusion... biggrin.gif Lets pretend you didnt get proof and still dont believe. I want to try and address some of the questions you asked about archeology and the burning times and all that.

First off. When you are in history, you dont see history. Most of those who died in the "burning times" arent aware thats what we call it, or thats how we view it, or that they were even a part of it. They know what happened to them, as individuals, the dont see the "big picture" they dont see their lifetimes as events. When we look about us now, and we see what is happening in our world we dont look at it as history. Especially on an individual basis.

With regards to the archeology, the same idea applies. The dead, especaially the long dead, no sorry let me go at that again. The very long dead, the bronze age people lets say. Tend not to be numerous in their... numbers.... biggrin.gif its too long past. Ghosts that interact with people tend not to be that long dead. The older ghosts gets, the more removed from us they seem to get. I dont know why, I cant explain that, I think it has to do with their self awareness. Anyway, they tend to become stuck in a loop of action or emotion and you cant contact them for "information" because there isnt a connection between them and you. Im not explaining this very well. Its very hard to put into words. I hope I am making sense. Also, the ghosts that can and do make contact, if they are very old, really really dont give a damn about your quesions, they have their own agenda, they want to make themselves heard or, make a point or finish whatever it was that they need to finish to give them peace and no amount of questions like "how DID you grind corn" is going to get answered with anything more than, "stop asking stupid questions and HELP me/ DO this/ DONT do this" thats if you can ever understand them! blink.gif

As for proof. What proof would you like? No seriously, not be sarcastic, what proof would your friend deem... proof?
woozle
Christianity suddenly seems very attractive. A good book to read, churches, priests, singing....
I'll ask a question from me - so you are all in agreement are you, that the dead don't answer questions because they have their own agendas? Sorry to be a bore again and bring up the convenience word but how very conventint is that?! Doesn't seem to work for other things. Mediumship for the recent dead of course being the one where one gets the brownie points. The dead do all sorts of things, even march across the landscape. We even get ancient egyptians being chanelled, we get people sitting on burial mojnds and meeting bronze age people but hey, either they speak a different laguage, or have personal agenda or are too far back in time to worry about us. I'm beginning to see my firiend's point of view.
You can't see electricity but we all know it is there. We know what it is and though the applications may change and peoples ideas about it change, everyone will say the same thing when asked what it is. Mediumship though is different. Odd that.

I know mediums really do do what they do. I'm sort of devilsadvokating here.
jape
I have had significant personal questions answered directly by 'the dead' via mediums, from spiritualist church background, witchy types and also the local fire-brigade mechanic who goes into trances and gives messages! There is often a bit of seeming lunacy, that guy for example reckons he channels a red indian chief but speaks in trance with a russian accent. Maybe Rasputin is amusing himself from some level of Hell?

I have also had questions answered directly using the good old Ouija board and I certainly don't think that facts I did not know at the time about my grandparents (a heart attack for granpapa, a habit of smoking plain Woodbines for granmama, both checked into later) were trawled from my subconscious. That is possible but still means that I/me/the planchette saw the past and predicted future events coming to pass, including dates not yet set and more.

I have seen a friend talking fluent French as far as I could tell from my limited comprehension of it when she was in a trance and channelling a lass who reckoned she was Joan of Arc! It happens, no idea why, perhaps mischievousness or insanity on the part of others across whatever 'veil' she crossed. I have come across a couple of nasty buggers too. These are phenomenon common enough to show 'something' exists outside of our normal ken. Whether they are actual 'passed over souls' or another spiritual entity created and translated as such within our experience of psychic energy doesn't matter. As you said, strange no-one has a proof like a hidden treasure. Or maybe they just don't talk about it on public forums in case the government kidnaps them and gets them to blow up missiles in silos using telekinesis?

So how does one prove it? Others have said, and I agree, that we don't feel the need to bother. I do have friends that would swear (on a bible, lol) they heard the predictions and facts communicated. Is that proof?

it is like when I levitated, no-one much believes me, including many pagans. *shrug*. Most witches have experienced amazing things and from what you say Woozle, even if not a witch, you have experienced the extraordinary yourself. Why bother even trying to convince those others?

I can be a show-off at times and I like to spin a yarn when with friends but for some reason I feel absolutely no compunction to boast or even recount such things except to like minded folk such as here.

Another thing I would say with certainty is that if you wish for more personal experience and proof, just ask for it and create a circumstance through ritual or trance, work at it and it will come, always.
elswyth
The thing that amuses me the most is that people think that just because someone's dead that they'll somehow know everything you want them to.

Someone who was thick as pigshit in life isn't going to become super intelligent and know everything just because they're dead.

QUOTE
we get people sitting on burial mojnds and meeting bronze age people but hey, either they speak a different laguage, or have personal agenda or are too far back in time to worry about us.


You're a silly Woozle, of course they won't speak modern English. You really think that just because someone is dead means that any personal agendas are removed? Living people have agendas so why is it so hard to get your head round the idea that the dead do too?

You could go and become a Christian but then you'd have to believe lots more silly things that for some reason don't get questioned as much....like a ghost getting someone pregnant with the son of god and that bread and wine can be body and blood.

And if you know that mediums really do what they do then why is it so hard to believe that people working within different systems are doing stuff too? Just using different methods.
Xalle
QUOTE(woozle @ Jun 27 2008, 07:25 AM)
I'll ask a question from me - so you are all in agreement are you, that the dead don't answer questions because they have their own  agendas? Sorry to be a bore again and bring up the convenience word but how very conventint is that?! Doesn't seem to work for other things. Mediumship for the recent dead of course being the one where one gets the brownie points. The dead do all sorts of things, even march across the landscape. We even get ancient egyptians being chanelled, we get people sitting on burial mojnds and meeting bronze age people but hey, either they speak a different laguage, or have personal agenda or are too far back in time to worry about us. I'm beginning to see my firiend's point of view.
You can't see electricity but we all know it is there. We know what it is and though the applications may change and peoples ideas about it change, everyone will say the same thing when asked what it is. Mediumship though is different. Odd that.
*



Nope I know exactly what you are saying. Im going to go out on a limb here. So just bare with me while I don my Flack Jacket and tin lid.

Anyone who tells you they channel "ancient egyptians" and understands them (beyond the emotions they feel... as they are universal) is lying, unless they speak egyptian.

The mediums that do the whole... razzle dazzle... most are fakes. Its easy to jump on the band wagon and tell people their granny loves them. Cold reading is a skill, and one used by most people who claim to be mediums. Derren Brown proved that beautifully. Im going to go see if I can find a link to that experiment he did in cold reading.

Seeing and speaking to the dead is not easy. These entities are NOT people any more. They are part of a conscious, what was, not what still is. Many of them are not even fully aware that they exist as something we, that is you and I can see or feel. Those that do have an awareness, are aware of something, not everything, we... the living are as much ghosts to them as they are to us. It isnt "convenient" that we cant give the answers, its bloody annoying, but speaking to, connecting with and understanding spirits is like holding water in your hands, you can, but it isnt easy, you never have quite as much as you thought you did and it slips easily through the fingers.

BE sceptical, you are probably right 75% of the time.
Deadwing
Hi Woozle,

I know where youre coming from. We probably have the same "friends" you and i that require absolute !00% verifiable, demonstrative and scientifically tested proof regarding anything that falls into the psychic or paranormal categories. As far as im aware, no one has successfully managed to do this yet. The Randi million and other prizes that await absolute undeniable proof of Ghosts, spirits and other Paranormal phenomena still remain uncollected. Ghosts simply dont like laboratories i guess. So for one, that gives weight to the sceptic fraternity.
My sceptic acquaintances also take the piss out of things like Tarot and Astrology. I've seen sceptics on forums produce quite accurate results using cold and warm reading techniques and of course using the Barnum effect. An example of this might be.

You have a great need for other people to like and admire you.
You have a great deal of unused capacity, which you have not turned to your advantage.
Disciplined and self-controlled outside, you tend to be worrisome and insecure inside.
You prefer a certain amount of change and variety and become dissatisfied when hemmed in by restrictions and limitations.
You pride yourself as an independent thinker and do not accept others statements without satisfactory proof.
You have a tendency to be critical of yourself.
At times you have serious doubts as to whether you have made the right decision or done the right thing.
At times you are extroverted, sociable, while at other times you are introverted, wary, reserved.
While you have some personality weaknesses, you are generally able to compensate for them.

The sceptics ask why the hospitals and the NHS isnt staffed entirely by Witches performing healing spells.
They even asked if Witches are able to cast spells, manipulate energy etc, why couldnt thousands of them even manipulate a small enough break in the clouds for the sunrise to appear at this years Summer Solstice at Stonehenge?

The sceptics using todays science are able to reel off psychological, hallucinatory, visual and aural reasons to back their proof. We unfortunately have only our own subjective experiences which sceptics call delusion and faith to back up our proof.
woozle
QUOTE(elswyth @ Jun 27 2008, 12:01 PM)
of course they won't speak modern English.
*



Oh, you think so?
Give it another few years until the currently held theories about the development of english language have been bombed out of the water and replaced with a saner and more rational idea about linguistic non-sequence and i'm sure we'll all soon see that one of the languages in the bronze age was in fact english so you might then be able to understand biggrin.gif if of course you need language to understand which i had not actually heard of before getting on here.
I've got me some studying to do and woozles loves a good study. smile.gif

woozle
QUOTE(Deadwing @ Jun 27 2008, 12:32 PM)
Hi Woozle,

I know where youre coming from. We probably have the same "friends" you and i that require absolute !00% verifiable, demonstrative and scientifically tested proof regarding anything that falls into the psychic or paranormal categories. As far as im aware, no one has successfully managed to do this yet. The Randi million and other prizes that await absolute undeniable proof of Ghosts, spirits and other Paranormal phenomena still remain uncollected. Ghosts simply dont like laboratories i guess. So for one, that gives weight to the sceptic fraternity.
My sceptic acquaintances also take the piss out of things like Tarot and Astrology. I've seen sceptics on forums produce quite accurate results using cold and warm reading techniques and of course using the Barnum effect. An example of this might be.

You have a great need for other people to like and admire you.
You have a great deal of unused capacity, which you have not turned to your advantage.
Disciplined and self-controlled outside, you tend to be worrisome and insecure inside.
You prefer a certain amount of change and variety and become dissatisfied when hemmed in by restrictions and limitations.
You pride yourself as an independent thinker and do not accept others statements without satisfactory proof.
You have a tendency to be critical of yourself.
At times you have serious doubts as to whether you have made the right decision or done the right thing.
At times you are extroverted, sociable, while at other times you are introverted, wary, reserved.
While you have some personality weaknesses, you are generally able to compensate for them.

The sceptics ask why the hospitals and the NHS isnt staffed entirely by Witches performing healing spells.
They even asked if Witches are able to cast spells, manipulate energy etc, why couldnt thousands of them even manipulate a small enough break in the clouds for the sunrise to appear at this years Summer Solstice at Stonehenge?

The sceptics using todays science are able to reel off psychological, hallucinatory, visual and aural reasons to back their proof. We unfortunately have only our own subjective experiences which sceptics call delusion and faith to back up our proof.
*



Yep, that sounds like them!!! laugh.gif laugh.gif
"why couldnt thousands of them even manipulate a small enough break in the clouds for the sunrise to appear at this years Summer Solstice at Stonehenge?"amost word for word laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif..... but they do have a valid point.
elswyth
QUOTE(woozle @ Jun 27 2008, 11:48 AM)
QUOTE(elswyth @ Jun 27 2008, 12:01 PM)
of course they won't speak modern English.
*



Oh, you think so?
Give it another few years until the currently held theories about the development of english language have been bombed out of the water and replaced with a saner and more rational idea about linguistic non-sequence and i'm sure we'll all soon see that one of the languages in the bronze age was in fact english so you might then be able to understand biggrin.gif if of course you need language to understand which i had not actually heard of before getting on here.
I've got me some studying to do and woozles loves a good study. smile.gif
*



I can´t see how those theories would be bombed out of the water....you´d have more chance of Derek Fakorah actually succeeding at channelling a ghost first!

As for ´needing a language to understand´, I know this sounds nuts but I´m pretty clairaudient. Its not something that I need, I´d be quite happy if I didnt have some of the crap I´ve had in the past. Sometimes its noises like a screaming noise before a book somehow manages to make its way off a shelf and hit someone even though it was wedged in there and there was no heavy traffic in the street so you can put it down to vibrations and sometimes its waking up in the middle of the night in a French mansion only to have the dead housekeeper wringing her hands and telling you all the chores she´s supposed to have done.
and worrying that she hasnt.

Some folks see, some folks get mental images, some folks hear, some folks smell or feel and some do all of the above.
Snippety
QUOTE
you´d have more chance of Derek Fakorah actually succeeding at channelling a ghost first!
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif @ Els & Opalmoon's post too !

I love it when he stands in a kitchen for example and says "What's that Sam ? I can see a man in here...and he's doing something... yes, I think he's cooking!.. his name's John, John and he's very angry !"

It's always an angry bloke called John ! Perhaps it's the same dude following him about. His trances are fantastic ! biggrin.gif And I love it when they all roam around in the dark scaring themselves silly. I haven't watched it for ages, but it's really entertaining laugh.gif
Julai
This language thing - do we have thoughts outside of language? How complicated a thought can exist without being couched in words? I believe our intellectual development as humans has been enabled by the fact that we started to use words to anchor our thoughts, ideas and experiences.

I am beginning to think it could be mere wishful thinking to imagine that someone who spoke a different language when alive, could suddenly communicate to us in our own language just because they're dead. And surely without a brain you can't form sentences in any language - how exactly would you do it? That's assuming you still retain a consciousness, and i'm not even convinced that is possible without a brain.
Xalle
QUOTE(Julai @ Jun 27 2008, 08:31 PM)
I am beginning to think it could be mere wishful thinking to imagine that someone who spoke a different language when alive, could suddenly communicate to us in our own language just because they're dead. And surely without a brain you can't form sentences in any language - how exactly would you do it? That's assuming you still retain a consciousness, and i'm not even convinced that is possible without a brain.
*



Absolutely. Well put.
Mr.PPP
I thought Adam & Eve spoke English! He with a Scousegit dialect, she with a deep south dialect - so neither ever understood anything the other said. She called home Eden, he called it England. If anyone here succeeds in channeling either of them, ask them about the serpent's dialect. Cockney??? smile.gif
elswyth
QUOTE(Julai @ Jun 27 2008, 08:31 PM)
This language thing - do we have thoughts outside of language? How complicated a thought can exist without being couched in words? I believe our  intellectual development as humans has been enabled by the fact that we started to use words to anchor our thoughts, ideas and experiences.

*




As a linguist, this topic is particularly fascinating to me. I would say that we do have thoughts outside of language but usually in the form of pictures or emotions. The reason why I say this is that I will often see a picture of what it is in my head that I want to say. So for example, I will mentally see a picture of a table and then struggle to find the right word in the right language for it because all the words are the same to me, they all represent the image. It's just when I verbalise and then get the wrong language stuck in my head that it's an issue.

I once read a book called 'Language' (can't remember the author's name and it's going to bug me) and the author postulated that complex thoughts only came along as we developed the language to express them. That that development went hand in hand.
Xalle
QUOTE(elswyth @ Jun 28 2008, 02:29 PM)
QUOTE(Julai @ Jun 27 2008, 08:31 PM)
This language thing - do we have thoughts outside of language? How complicated a thought can exist without being couched in words? I believe our  intellectual development as humans has been enabled by the fact that we started to use words to anchor our thoughts, ideas and experiences.

*




As a linguist, this topic is particularly fascinating to me. I would say that we do have thoughts outside of language but usually in the form of pictures or emotions. The reason why I say this is that I will often see a picture of what it is in my head that I want to say. So for example, I will mentally see a picture of a table and then struggle to find the right word in the right language for it because all the words are the same to me, they all represent the image. It's just when I verbalise and then get the wrong language stuck in my head that it's an issue.

I once read a book called 'Language' (can't remember the author's name and it's going to bug me) and the author postulated that complex thoughts only came along as we developed the language to express them. That that development went hand in hand.
*



Damn, beat me to it wumman.. I was off wondering how to word it. Pictures, thats exactly it, pictures and emotions, like... seeing a picture of a lake and feeling either morbid fear or loss or joy.. depending on what has happened. I also tend to get smells which can be trying to give information. For example, I was once in a building where the I got the smell of fresh paint and the feeling of how wrong and to a certain extent confusing that was. It was indicating to me, that the part of the building I was in was in fact relatively recently built.

Communicating with those no longer physical is a complicated process.
Flaxen
QUOTE(elswyth @ Jun 28 2008, 02:29 PM)
As a linguist, this topic is particularly fascinating to me. I would say that we do have thoughts outside of language but usually in the form of pictures or emotions. The reason why I say this is that I will often see a picture of what it is in my head that I want to say. So for example,  I will mentally see a picture of a table and then struggle to find the right word in the right language for it because all the words are the same to me, they all represent the image. It's just when I verbalise and then get the wrong language stuck in my head that it's an issue.
*



laugh.gif I can so identify with that-the amount of times a Dutch words comes into my head and I cannot for the life of me think of the English equivalent! Very interesting as I speak English daily and rarely speak Dutch now.

Inverurie Jones
QUOTE(Julai @ Jun 27 2008, 08:31 PM)
This language thing - do we have thoughts outside of language? How complicated a thought can exist without being couched in words? I believe our  intellectual development as humans has been enabled by the fact that we started to use words to anchor our thoughts, ideas and experiences.

I am beginning to think it could be mere wishful thinking to imagine that someone who spoke a different language when alive, could suddenly communicate to us in our own language just because they're dead. And surely without a brain you can't form sentences in any language - how exactly would you do it? That's assuming you still retain a consciousness, and i'm not even convinced that is possible without a brain.
*



Well, left to my own devices I think entirely in pictures. If I try to think in words, my lips move.
Gryphon
I get emotions, images and impressions from the dead.

Keep getting militry dead for some reason. Think the reason for that may be the above poster rolleyes.gif

(that smiley is supposed to be looking upwards rather than rolling eyes)
Inverurie Jones
They follow me about. 'S not my fault.
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