I got one of those WWF questionaires through the post the other day, and a question in it really made me think. It asked "Tiger bones and rhino horn are used in traditional oriental medicine and species are facing extinction as a result. Do you think their use in medicine is justified?" The answer options were "Yes," "Yes, because people are entitled to their own cultural beliefs" & "No, not all all."

Now I'm not asking about that question in particular but it was the bit about people being entitled to their own cultural beliefs that got me. After all, people are entitled to their own cultural beliefs and who are we to prevent them from this? I don't want to see the extinction of the tiger or rhino or any of the many other animals killed for their believed powers, but there is a thin line between someone else dictating what you are and what you are not allowed to practice according to your cultural beliefs. Personal belief is a one man/woman thing but cultural belief covers your entire upbringing, your surrounding, your background - your culture.

If tigers etc weren't facing extinction would we really try and intervene? And would we listen if (I hope I've got them right?) Hindus asked us not to eat cows because its against their beliefs as the cow is sacred? Everything in life is against someone elses beliefs so who really are we to say who can do what? What are your thoughts on this subject - Cultural beliefs or anothers belief in what is right?

Oh it's so complicated! In some cultures it's fine to stone a woman to death for adultery, in those same cultures being raped is commiting adultery. I don't think it's right, in fact it makes my blood boil and I'm sickened by a regime that enforces such beliefs. Does that mean I'm right and they're wrong? Do I get to change a countries legal and religious system because I find it offensive? No, I don't. Would I if I could? I honestly don't know.

As for the chinese medicine thing, well there's lots of human beings in the world, a few dying because they can't get these medicines wont do anything much on a global scale, the loss of keystone species forever will have so I personally think we should stop endangered species being decimated. If they weren't endangered then it'd be different of course, there wouldn't much difference between making burgers out of cows and making medicine out of tigers then.

Most of these cures are for the "male problem" - men who want to have sex drives like 15 year olds. Unfortunately, unless there's an herb for Giving Men a Clue, this sort of thing will continue - I can't count how many men came into my store wanting sexdrive overhauls instead of just facing facts.

On a sort-of-related note; I've gotten an eyeful about my use of the word Karma in a sentence; because I am not Asian and therefore have no right to the word or the culture or beliefs.

As an interracial person I've heard this crap all my life - I could spend five minutes dividing my heritage down into 64ths in order to validate why I'm able to use the rituals that I do - and people will not be satisfied. I spent several years on the res but because I don't have a Black Indian card I've heard the same spiel from the Natives. I've shown up to the ritual of Odinists and been greeted with guffaws (my mother's maiden name was Tillotson). Celtics give me a blank stare, and the staunch practicioners on Santeria are also less than impressed by my pale skin.

I recognise that there have been Westeners out there who have a dream about an eagle and suddenly think they're shamen - but there are just as many false prophets out there in their own cultures. If the deity calls you, and you've walked those miles, people can take it up with the Deity that set the path.


Sort of hijacked the thread, but I'm irritated....I can't help that I wasn't born "pureblood" and I know there's that drivel about how we're all African etc etc - but no-one really believes it.

I think thats the point though really isnt it? It IS in danger. If they wipe the tiger or Rhino out, then it doesnt matter what their belief is, coz it wont be about for them to use.

The difference with the cows is.. (god I hope this makes sense) is that us eating cows.. does not stop others from NOT eating them. If the Cow was on the endangerd list, I for one would stop eating them. Not because it respects someone elses faith, but because there is no point in me being THAT selfish.

Whatever someone thinks the healing properties of animal products or by products are, they dont have healing properties if they dont exist, so religion is NOT an excuse to hunt an animal out of existance. Nothing is.

If there were millions of Tigers and Rhinos, just like there are cows, if they bred that readily and were that abundant.. no, I wouldnt give a toss if people were using them for whatever religious practice they chose. I'd also own a gun, and not go out after dark, as I dont think we would be at the top of the food chain!

Actually, I think Badkitty's comments about cultural purity are more related to this topic than they appear.

Just because something is "traditional" does it make it right? And on the other hand, just because something is NOT "traditional" does it make it wrong?

Why do people get so hung up on tradition that they set it in stone and refuse to let it evolve and absorb new ideas, or indeed, let old ideas go?



Amethystine

I think it's because in some cultures religion they see the old ways as the only ways. Sadly if they carry on they will lose the animals they need/use for the medicine.

I guess it's also harder to change the ways of your ancestors unless several people want to.

It makes my blood boil that these animals are coming close to being extinct and these people seem to be to selfish or don't see the bigger picture enough to stop.

Hope that makes sense.

On whether thing are right or wrong. Every religion/belief will see something wrong with others that we don't like. Especially those that treat women/children/humans/animals badly they always make my blood boil and curse a few words but that is the way they have been brought up in most cases. If any one was to try and change these things for the better of their religion/culture they'd have a lot of hard work ahead of them breaking those chains. (so to speak)

The way I see it, there's two issues here, just with the Chinese medicine thing.

1 - People should be free to hold/practice their own beliefs, until it begins to impact negatively on the whole of a community. So if there were loads of tigers, well, I'd still say it's a stupid idea, but they could kill and eat whatever they wanted.

2 - People are free to hold a belief, but shouldn't expect everyone else to hold this belief. (See the hindu/not eating cow) comments. Welcome to multiculturalism - we all have to respect each other.

Anyone who thinks eating bits of an animal will make him 15 again in bed needs a good kick to the head on general principles in my opinion, but as long as it's a common animal, then go for it. Just keep an eye open my flying docs.

Actually, that didn't sound respectful and multicultural at all. Oh well!

Some of us just have it anyway

Seriously, the bit about ancient people/cures etc may be fine but generally ancient folk didnt wipe things out for cures etc, they controled/respected what was around them, its everyone else jumping on the bandwaggons that destroys hings

I agree with what a lot of people have said here. If it's extinct, no-one gets to enjoy it. Once it's gone there's no bringing it back.

At the risk of being barbecued, I also object to cruel methods employed, and "wastage" for want of a better word. The rhinos have their horns hacked off and left to bleed to death, the sharks have their fins hacked off and are thrown back to bleed to death or be eaten, bears are milked for bile, or have their feet hacked off.

I know in western society animals are also kept in appalling conditions sometimes, which I also think is wrong, but the majority of the carcass is used - for food - unlike those mentioned where a small portion of the animal is used for medicine that may or may not work.

*weatherwitch wonders which 'head' polarbear means*


Does anyone think a substitue would acceptable? Such as a man-made chemically produced rhino horn etc? After all, aspirin no longer resembles white willow bark anymore, infact much of our culture welcomed the new medical breakthrough of mass produced drugs.

And badkitty does have an excellent point about background too, "If the deity calls you, and you've walked those miles, people can take it up with the Deity that set the path.

I could never comment on such a delicate question weatherwitch, though considering the focus of the "medicine," the phrase poetic justice comes to mind!

Just found another old thread debating 'tradition/culture' v. <whatever> which was touched on in the Snug posts 'Anti-cultural' and 'Over-reaction'.

When reading Xalle's comment: "If they wipe the tiger or Rhino out, then it doesnt matter what their belief is, coz it wont be about for them to use."

I can't help thinking about an article I saw recently: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7660921.stm

"Many people around the world are opposed to whaling, but for some communities in Alaska it is part of their traditional way of life."

It's rather a big question isn't it. Distinctly fishy

As questionable or less-so than the news posts: Albinos Flee Witchdoctors?

I sent that to a friend in Burundi and he replied saying he was deeply saddened to hear it and that there's a national campaign to sensitise people (that's what it's called here) on albinos.

Nice, sensitise away, I'm sure many poachers would turn up to learn which are the best parts to use *shudder* Doubt it's going to make anyone in Tanzania believe albino parts are anything but the best solution to financial woes...

So we want to blame the Chinese for wiping out tigers etc by using their body parts in medicine?

Hmm... of course we have no cultural habits which might endanger species. Habits like wanting to pay such low prices for food that agricultural farmers are forced to eliminate habitats for birds. Or like wanting to have our own house instead of living in a house with many other people, so other habitats are built over. Or wanting the right to visit beauty spots which means the number of tourist destroy other habitats. Or wanting to be able to use antibiotics or steroids or whatever for health or leisure reasons so that rivers are polluted and damage the ability of some animals to breed. Or to simply carry on having a lifestyle that means we can use central heating, or cars, or consume in what seem to us moderate amounts which other countries feel they have a right to aspire to, which, in turn, destroys other habitats and endangers other species in other lands.

Yes, a lot of endangered species (or ones we've made extinct through the way we live) may not be large glamorous mammals, but they're still species of animals. The point is: how much of our own culture would we be willing to do without to stop the rot?

Well said MH. Many of these cultures don't have access to regular western medicines either. Their 'tradition' is also their medicine. We are always ready to condemn but it is mostly us causing all the problems in teh first place. Who was it that practically eliminated the tiger, the chinese or the westerners, mostly european, on safari?
Then what is the problem with sex medicine? All very nice if it works but if the culture deems you a nonentiity, or your life becomes lonely and hellish because you have sexual problems and the same culture says that eating ground up tiger liver will cure you, and most sexual problems, many sexual problems being psychological in nature you will try anything. Who are we to judge. How do we know tiger bits doesn't work for them?
The rarity of animals doesn't enter into it imo. We are eliminating the rainforest at an alarming rate extinguishing creatures and plants at an even more alarming rate just to satisfy out so-called needs. Are our needs any more valid? I don't want to see the extinction of the tiger anymore than anyone else but realistically the tiger will become extinct anyway and most probably in my lifetime.
It's not even the ignorant poor people driving this, it's commerce, as usual.

I have no problem with people using rhino horns and tiger penis and what not. I have lived in too many cultures now to have a problem. However the only ethic I would support is that the numbers killed for these purposes are limited.

Sustainability is the only ethic I would try to impose here.