OK I did a little search and couldn't see that this has come up before so here goes.

I am never late. If I am less than half an hour early for trains etc I get rather nervous (in the case of using York buses to get to the station, understandably so!) So when people arrange to meet up for something and turn up late, saying 'oh hahaha you know about Pagan Standard Time' I get a bit terse.

One of the worst examples was when I was at the PF Conference in Leeds in May. They actually built 15 mins between talks because people had struggled to get to them the previous year. So why did we have people walking into talks 30-40 mins after it started?

Does anyone know the reason by this phenomenon? Is it just because a lot of late people become pagans? Or is it something that has developed over the years and it is now an excuse we can use for thoughtlessness? And what is a good way to stop it within groups? Me and my friend state 'if you are not here by this o'clock we will go without you'. But that doesn't work all the time.

I have no idea but it is indeed an observable phenomenon.

Has anyone tried giving people a time at least 30mins before they actually intend to leave in order to circumvent the PST effect?

I tried that once and the person was 2 hours late!

We had gone by then, but received a plaintive text long after we had started. Sometimes it has to be tough love.

In my wife's family, we tell certain members that the event starts two hours before it's actually planned to occur.

The Moot, I think, operates, or is beginning to operate the same way. We are not yet in the position of being able to delay sunrise or sunset, though I've met people who make this claim so yes, it's tough love from us.

My husband was always late when I first met him, so I started giving him times an hour before he or we needed to be anywhere. He got the message.

PST has another word - rudeness. There are times when all of us are unavoidably late (two groups meeting us at Stonehenge were delayed by the A34 being closed), but to deliberately turn up half an hour or more late with no apology, making jokes about pagan standard time shows a lack of consideration for those whom you are meeting.

Rhiannon

Pagan Standard Time seems to range from about one hour after the specified time upwards, personally I prefer to be early if I can, this means that I am able lend a hand with the setting up, etc if necessary, those who turn up late, ie after the ritual has started can just wait until it's finished before being let in.

Storm Raven

This I agree with.

I know that there can be reasons for lateness, traffic and public transport being as it is these days, and not everyone carries a mobile phone. But if I was late I would be so embarrassed, not amused.

And this strays into another of my pet hates, but in this day of instant communication, why is it so difficult for people to get in touch to say they will be late/absent etc? I am a natural worrier and think of all sorts of scenarios if someone doesn't turn up, and it usually turns out they just couldn't be bothered!

Agreed! And the last time that happened to me, the person in question was left in no doubt as to my feelings on the matter. It is rude and it's bloody well taking it for granted that you will always be able to show up on time.

The worst of this is "druid time"

I dont take part in any of their stuff these days, but it is often stated that ceremony will begin 1pm (for instance) Druid time. Which is never actually at the time stated and often up to 3 hours late!!!

This is particularly prevalent at Avebury for some reason and of course I wouldn't like to insinuate its because of the Red Lion nearby

It is rude, it shows just how little regard those who are consistently late without apology or excuse have for those who are hosting the ritual, moot, event, etc and for those who have made the effort to turn up early or on time.

At the group events that I attend we have people making the effort to travel several hundred miles by public transport who do their best to turn up on time to events, yet we have some who are no more than twenty to thirty miles away who travel by car and are consistently late.

Storm Raven

The Red Lion....AKA the Circus Show.

I thought it was just me ! I'm obsessive about being on time to the point of neurosis so spend a lot of boring time sitting waiting for friends, the doctor, tattoo artists etc. At the 2 Pagan events I've attended (both informal and at someone else's house) I arrived a little early and ended up being there an hour before anyone else showed up. Most embarrassing. Next time I'll probably skulk about outside for a bit until someone else shows

Totally off topic Snippety but I am asking you because you know the feeling better than I....how annoying is it waiting for a leg tattoo to heal so you can defuzz your legs again?

I'd say it's up there with PST

I have this problem with my other half, she is consistently late, and seems ot forget how to use her mobile to let me know as soon as possible. yesterday she was running 45 min late and didn't think to tell me as soon as she realised she hadn't left at her usual time...

I spend a lot of time waiting around because I am usually early, I really hate being late and make sure I give myself extra time to get places. so in yesterdays instance I was waiting for her for about 75 minutes

Yep !! Itches like a bastard as well !

I always take a book with me now, especially to pub moots, so I don't look like I have either been stood up or are on the pull.

I hate being late for anything. Im always at least 15 mins early. I just think its rude when people come into somthing late and it always seems to cause a commotion so you either lose track of whats going on or stop completely. In our lectures at uni sometimes they lock the front door of the theater so late people come in the back dont distract the rest. I think its a good idea for most things like event and the like.

Lateness is very common, everywhere. IMO there is only one explanation (other than being unavoidably held up) lack of respect. Italians are always late and some just don't turn up at all, and with no explanation other than, 'we didn't feel like it'. I am punctual to the minute. It's how i was brought up (which i think counts for a lot). I wait for nobody more than 31 minutes (though i would wait more for HRH), then i'm gone. Casually late people can adapt and start getting a little more punctual especially when i am giving them a lift, habitual late arrivers cannot be changed. For example I see the same people every day having to run for the bus, alwqys the same people, these are incurable, pagan or otherwise and should be supressed.
edited to add smileys just in case..

What got me is that PF had actually arranged for someone to stand at the door to turn back latecomers, but they just didn't bother. It was very distracting!

Do you guys want to hear a secret about Germany?

*whispers*

They aren't as punctual as everyone thinks they are and the public transport was more punctual in Korea than here, not that I'm complaining....I used to live in Spain, I got used to things being late a while back

When I was a teenager my sister was living in Dublin. I visited her and on one occasion went with her to a Chieftains concert. The advertised time of start was 8.00pm.

At half past seven I was saying, "Shouldn't we be going now?"
"Ach no, they won't be starting for hours yet."
We got there at half past eight.

The hall was empty.

It started at ten past nine.

It just goes to prove it's not just pagans.

It's not just Pagans, there is London Transport Time, which is relative to how they are feeling, the excuses if any are given for the delays are I'm sure are determined by the rolling of dice.

Most friends who've known me for sometime know that I'm a just a tad obsessive about not being late and plan my journey's with plenty of time to spare, I carry two books, MP3 player with spare batteries, tarot deck, note pad and pens with me, if I'm doing the journey on a semi-regular basis I learn where all the half decent pubs and coffee shops are as well on the route.

Storm Raven

Hear hear.

I'm never late for anything (unless I get hopelessly lost ) because I consider it the height of rudeness to be late just because... Unavoidable delays are fine, but just being "fashionably" or "paganly" late really irritate me - they're basically someone's way of telling you that they don't consider your time important

Say it ain't so!!



Excellent idea!

I hate being late, and it winds me up when people wander in with no real apology or explanation. What makes it worse is that having spent years in the army, I was used to people being where they were supposed to be when they were supposed to be and getting a bollocking if they weren't early. Boy did I get a shock when I came back into civvy street

I'm so glad its not just me who is irritated by lateness... I seem to have always been around people who think it is okay to show up hours after they were meant to, and then just say 'oh, sorry' and that would be okay.

My last boyfriend was the worst offender, he lived in another town so we only saw each other at weekends when he would travel down. He would say all week that he would be here at 1pm on Friday, so I would work extra hours all weeks in order to take half a day flexi on Friday, then get home nice and early and get ready... only to get a message after waiting in all afternoon that he was only just getting the train and would be here around 7pm, or the next day, or not at all. It drove me demented, and I soon learned that it wasn't worth slogging my guts out all week in order to be off on Friday afternoon, because he was never gonna be here - he seemed incapable of being anywhere on time, and I don't think he ever arrived when he was supposed to lol

My former best mate did the same thing, she was always late - but when she got together with her new fella who worked evenings in a newsagents in town you knew damn well that whatever time she said, she wouldn't turn up until he had finished work and shut up the shop at 9.30, because she used to bob in to see him 'for 5 minutes' when she got off the bus, and then just stay with him instead. The worst time was when I had arranged to meet her at 7pm, and she showed up at quarter to 10... I was only still there because I had bumped into someone else in the pub, and she was astonished that I was peeved at her!

I must admit, I have wondered if it was me who had the problem, getting all annoyed with people when they can't be arsed to be somewhere on time... I am very rarely late for anything, only when it is totally unavoidable. It does seem to be a pagan thing, within our group we joke about pagan mean time as there are always latecomers to every event we run, who are often amazed that we have started a workshop or something without them! We do try and wait a bit for people we know are coming, but when you have a room full of customers who have paid for a full days workshop, and have all managed to get themselves here at the right time, it can be tricky.

I think theres being late and being LATE LOL. Druid/pagan time just takes the p*** as far as I'm concerned.

My hubby is ex army and its taken him years to train me

I'm one of those who arrives early - everywhere
If i'm late its because something totally out of my control has happened
But i have learnt to take a book or my MP3 player
(& also to be snotty to people who are constantly late )

In my opinion, consistently turning up late and keeping other people waiting is just a way of telling them that you consider yourself more important than they are.

They should just sit around wasting their time until you deign to turn up.

Since when was hoovering the sitting room a "waste of time" Andy?

I think that being very late all of the time is very disrespectful indeed. I live with someone who arrives no less that 15 minutes prior to any appointment! If I should threaten that record time, he starts pacing the hall

I live in a place where time has no meaning! No amount of cursing, phone calls or insistence will make them turn up on time (repair men)

If you know that you're going to be late for an appointment, it doesn't take much to make a phone call (if possible) to let them know that you are on your way and that you're okay.

Heh. It's not confined to using other people's time.

Ever come across the pagans who think they have a right to a lift somewhere, even if it's far out of your way? Or have turned up on a campsite without food, drink, a bottle opener, cutlery, pots, pans, cooking appliances, chairs or, even - in one case - a tent?

I don't mean virgin campers or those pushed for what they can carry on public transport, but people who consistently behave as though being pagans means that what's yours belongs to them, and who are astonished if you suggest a reciprocal arrangement, or that they're being a tad unreasonable.

Far, far worse than pagan time IMO, is N.H.S. hospital/doctor time.
You have an appointment at 9.30 am and if your very, very lucky you get called in at 12.30pm or maybe even 3.45pm, having had nothing to eat or drink since about 7.30am because you had to be ready for the hospital transport to arrive supposedly at 8am but which may not have turned up till 10.30am.

Interesting to note that no one who's posted so far has any justification for pagan mean time (and the thread's not the first rant I've seen on the subject!)

But _someone_ must be one of the late ones?

Why? Why? Give us a clue...

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

I was always brought up to be on time or early ~ twas seen as the height of bad manners to be late etc without warning your host or apologising ~ and even though I can't wear a watch (they won't work when I wear them lol) I still adhere to that time limit rule........ thank gawds for mp3 players and books

I'm a stickler for time keeping too, which inevitably means I'm always too early for everything.

I think particularly with workshops and conferences and other events where organisation is needed, people ought to be warned sternly beforehand that if they don't arrive on time they will be locked out. All that waiting five more minutes and then another five more minutes is not only a timewaster, it spoils the feeling of the event and the participants start with a feeling of flatness and demoralisation which is unfair to all concerned and insulting to the organisers who have taken the trouble.

Oh, but sometimes it's the organisers themselves who don't seem capable of a schedule. Open rituals where you arrive on time and stand about for half an hour while they get their act together, not knowing what's going on...not a great introduction to a group!

See how green I am buy not owning a vehicle; can I get a lift in yours?

See how I have shed consumerism to live a simpler life; do you have any spare food?

See how impressed I am at your choice to live off the land and sleep under a hedge ... way to go !

As for PST, well this has to come under the header of attempting to meet everyones' expectations again doesn't it. However, being accommodating will always be taken advantage of by the few who are either just not organised, or have conflicting family "accommodating" needs of their own.

Now me, I've not worn a watch since I was 14, however I still manage to obtain the time from various other sources to arrive before time for appointments when required. Although when in the countryside time has a curious way of reverting to and instinctive sun-up sun-down relativity - tired? must be time for bed. Oh you have a watch; only 8:30pm really?

Maybe this all down to an un-natural dependency on 24 hour time. Perhaps if we were allowed to work to our own biorhythms our internal clocks might be more accurate(?)

heh. When given the opportunity I do biorhythms. Boy, do I do them. Who cares what the clock says?

And yeah, I haven't worn a watch either since my early twenties. I love camps - sleep when you feel like it and wake when you're ready.

It's amazing how much you can carry on public transport, just ask Mojie, she once picked me up off the coach, I had a backpack, a large duffel bag full of clothes, etc and six man tent, I'd brought it down from Oxfordshire by bus and train, across London on the tube and onto National Express.

Yes I've seen them, if someone offers me a lift I feel that I duty bound to recompense them in some way, even if they won't accept money towards the fuel, wear and tear on the vehicle.

Storm Raven

I haven't worn a watch since I was at school. If I don't lose them or inadvertently bathe them then, like with mel, they don't work. However, there is very few times when I am not in sight of a clock. The works PC, the home PC, the mobile, TV, DVD/VCR, cooker, alarm clock etc etc ad nauseum. I am sure there will be a crunchy or 2 around who haven't had to look at a clock since sundials went out of fashion, but I find it hard to understand how people can honestly claim they were late because they didn't know the time. I would prefer if they said they just couldn't be arsed!

I have a good time sense, and I understand some people don't, but if you care about your friends then a quick phonecall is always welcome.


I had a boyfriend like that once, only it was much much more than a tent. *sigh*

I also can't wear a watch because of the stopping working thing.

It gets worse though because if I am angry, electrical devices in my vicinity start to cock up too. I have had phones that have had unexplained static on them when making calls but that have worked fine for other people, I have had MP3 players that just shut down for me but work for everyone else. Not so long ago in this internet cafe, I was really pissed off and tried to print something. Ream after ream of blank paper came out. Nothing on it. The guy from the internet cafe couldn't understand. Everything was working perfectly except with these things that I wanted. He doesn't even ask me what's happened anymore if the computer just shuts off suddenly on me

I have such stress about being late to things exactly because of my watch issues :S

Els I understand the Watch thing (it happens to me)
I was brought up to be punctual .if my elder sisters (9 & 12 years older than me ) were even 2 minutes late my Dad would give them right dressing down. needless to say i was nearly always early.
The thing that really bugs me is mates who seem to think cause you have a car you can always wait around for them. no matter that it takes you 2.5 hors to get home and you need to be home for 6pm they think you can wait around till 5 and still make it home cause you don't have catch a certain bus or train.

Pagan time and lateness really gets my goat and I have very little paitence with those who use "pagan time" as an excuse


Mojie

My first response to this was, haven't I read this before except it was in the context of the Society for Creative Anachronism & S.C.A. time.

Sometimes I think it is because organising groups of certain types of people like pagans, people in the S.C.A. or other interest group of your choice is like herding cats. Other times I think it is because the culprits think it's okay in the "yeah the flyers say to be on time but it's no drama if we are late because these things never run on time" which perpetuates the issue or "it doesn't bother me if people are late, so why should it bother other people if I'm late" type way. The ideas of manners etc seem to be a foreign concept to them.

This behaviour is one of the reasons why I stopped running workshops and lectures for a couple clubs because it was just that bad. They have asked me to do something for them yet cannot have the courtesy to turn up on time.

Ocassionally, though rare, being late can be unavoidable; usually if it is somewhere I have not been before - the last Pagan Fed conference in Newcastle took three circuits of the city centre before I found the venue and a further circuit before I found parking.

And all because I refuse to buy in to these GPS devices (shouldn't the driver instruct the vehicle what to do and not the other way around?) instead preferring a standard paper map, which also gets me to all those places in the country only found with an Ordnance grid reference, and my own inbuilt PGS (Pagan Guidance System).

The GPS devices have trouble in cities due to the buildings blocking the satellite signals, give me a map, directions and full address with the GPS device as an assistance to my sense of direction and common sense.

Storm Raven

I am extremely disinclined to trust those things. Too many people use them as a substitute for- rather than an aid to- proper navigation, leading to pilots discovering powerlines (and likewise, mariners discovering rocks) that aren't featured on their GPS map or aren't where they seem to be due to differences between the survey data used, often with very messy consequences.

Where possible, use a chart or map, a compass and forward planning.

Then your in the wrong bit here around Cologne and Leverkusen you can set your watch by the public transport.

I must admit to being a bit hung up about running late I am always early or I arrived so stressed. but I have a friend who runs not on Pagan time but on Gay Pagan Time and he can be anythng from 3 hours late too 24 hours depending on his chances to get laided!