Can someone practise witchcraft without being a witch?

yes i'm sure this would be true. witchcraft covers a great deal of many different paths.
i'm sure there are many out there who dont understand what they do is a form of witchcraft.
i'm sure there are other who do undersatnd but would not like to be labelled as a witch.

Certainly you can.

Lots of paths include a little magick.

Yes, I would say it's like the difference between being an artist and merely being able to paint.

Most folks can do it to some degree but only those who are talented can really claim the title of witch.

Aye indeedy - the ancient Arte...

Oh dear, here we are again. Will you guys ever stop this nonsense?
(You do brighten up my day though )

Elswyth, I'm not a witch nor do I 'aspire' to be one, but witchcraft really does interest me as do many other things.

I think that I basically know what a witch is and does (there are many versions), but i'm interested to know exactly what you mean by having to be 'talented' to claim the title of witch ? This is just a curiousity and not a provocation.

Simply put a Witch IS His/Her craft, it is an integral part of them which cannot be separated. They live and breath it constantly. where as someone who practices witchcraft alongside other things is tapping into that part but not wholly immersed within it.

(At least that is my take on it)

as to the question well I guess my comment above answers that too

Hern I think that is probably the most sensible and reasonable dscription I have heard for it, thank you

I wish you'd stop your bloody nonsense or at least learn to have some manners in your posts.

Showing a bit of respect for the beliefs of others might even be a bit of a start too.

I've noticed you're not shy to ask prying questions but never share anything yourself.

Kind of makes me a tad suspicious about you and your motives on here.

Sorry for this slight interlude folks, transmission will now resume as normal .

I find Woozle's blog pages to be extremely enlightening, not to mention highly entertaining as well. Different strokes I suppose, but I certainly didn't consider his post here to be in anyway offensive, scathing etcetera. But maybe that's just me?

And while you're at it, please learn how to use the quote buttons....

Not a bad attempt at a definition Herne! Its one I could live with.

As for Els Woozle...



I had to admit to finding this comment a bit insulting too. What nonsense exactly? Just because a Witch is a concept you cant really get your head around doesnt make it nonsense. We have tried time and again to explain. The fact that we havent done so to your satisfaction doesnt mean its waffle.

I've read a couple of books on Quantum physics, didnt understand a word of any of it... not sure I ever will... doesnt make it nonsense.

Niggles about posts aside, my take is this: you can practise magic without being a witch, but witchcraft is witchcraft. I am a witch, and I practise my craft. If I was not a witch and dabbled with spells, I would be using magic. Hope that makes sense, and it's just an opinion in case anyone is going to get stressed!!

Tas dons waders and enters the discussion...

You can practice lots of things for a very long time. One day, you might even succeed, and then no longer have to practice.

Ever practical, I like to try and interpret certain questions literally! Besides, inferences do have a nasty tendency to muddy the waters.

How do you get insulting into the word nonsense? Anyway, I can quite easily get my head round what a witch is having met a very real one in person (and modest to boot) and anyway as you say YOU have time and time agan explained it to us all at every opportunity so it is difficult not to know. But some of us don't agree.
The 'nonsense' is not the definition of a witch, it is simpy that i questions your authority to define it. Setting yourselves up as judge and jury as to what a witch is is not cricket is it..? Just a teensy bit self-centred and immodest. Having as i said been honoured to meet a real witch (following your definition here, plus quite a lot more) i have my doubts as to your claims and will continue to challenge your authority to appropriate the term (true) witch for yourselves each time you claim it.

Thats a very odd response.

If you know what a witch is stop asking people to define it. I mean YOU asked and while we are at it, it wasnt just me that tried to give you an answer. As for me judging if someone is a witch or not well that is my right. Fortunately I keep it to myself... I dont think you will find I have said anywhere "you are not a witch". Unlike you I am not that rude. As for you judging if I am a witch or not and "challenging" me... who the fuck made YOU judge? Considering you stated yourself you are not a witch. Who exactly are you to judge who is? And who are you to judge my authority?

Personally I dont give a damn if you believe I am a witch or not. It makes not one iota of difference to me or how I live my life. I do not seek your approval, nor, thankfully do I need it. As to whether I am right or not.. well, once again, to me your opinion on it has little value. Your choosing to disagree with me is absolutely your right, please bare in mind tho, that it doesnt make you right either. As for finding insult with the word "nonsense"...I did. I didnt like your tone. *shrugs* tough.

Tas wonders if she needs to put that extension onto the frog house just yet...

whatever! i bow (out) to your superior reasoning.

Does that mean I can put away the vivariums then?

Absolutely

Being a witch is more than just casting spells, in my opinion anyway

Would the question: 'Can someone practice the Craft, without being a Witch?', make more sense?

Probably not!

Ok, thanks for the explanation Herne and others.
It's always puzzled me a little as to why this subject seems to 'brew up' into a heated discussion, nearly every time! What does it matter what other people think or call themselves? I think, that if you are secuire enough about who you are and what you do, there should be no need to judge others or in some cases 'boast' about who they are and what they can do. That just makes me personally doubt them.

To a degree, I'd day yes.

Whenever possible, when I'm doing a working for someone (a non witch) I try to get them involved in the process. For example a fertility working I usually give the mother to be a poppet to take away with her and ask her to spend a little time each day with her poppet 'seeing' herself as pregnant, being open and ready to conceive a child.

To my mind, this would be a non witch doing spell craft (maybe not full on witchcraft, but close approximation).

We've used the music analogy before, so perhaps it's the difference between being taught how to play a lil melody on the piano to being able to compose an opera.

Q

This.

I have no problem with Xalle's, Comfrey's, or Herne's definition of a witch or witchcraft, but it isn't my definition of a witch or witchcraft. I haven't had their experiences, their upbringing, or their magical results.

I do wonder why Woozle decided to post such an inflammatory post in this thread - calling it all nonsense - if he wasn't going to contribute to it in any way, but I am new to this forum and it seems that this is just 'what he does'.

For what it's worth, my opinion of Woozle's "inflammatory" remark is that he was simply groaning over the fact that - as Athena so neatly observes (see post 25) this topic inevitably seems to end up as a case of "which Witch is the best/truest/properest/most valid Witch". And THAT was the "nonsense" to which he alluded. And for the record, I couldn't agree with him more - despite the (as I see it) misinterpretation of his wording.

I have noticed something similar on a couple of other forums I have belonged too. The newer members post things that may have been discussed before, or may have a different take on it, and the older members are all 'groan, not this rubbish again'. It just seems to me that those remarks should be kept in someones head and instead they should maybe dig up a thread or 2 to show that it has been done to death in their opinion.

I don't think this kind of thing is nonsense, and I would have been a tad upset if one of the more senior posters called a post of mine that.

Oh i agree with you as well.

Actually Tas. No-one said that at all.

FCM asked a question. People responded. No-one in this discussion even mentioned "which witch".

No-one said one was better than the other, no-one tried to define witchcraft. or witches. People only answered the question, the fact that Woozle and Ath thought something else wasy being said, doesnt make it so.

Witch(1) + Craft(2) = Witchcraft

(1) Lifestyle choice, commonly associated with arcane practices complimentary with environmental concerns.

(2) Hereditary learnt or acquired skills and knowledge symbiotic when used in context with (1); otherwise reference to said skills on their own.

Quite so Xalle and ever the wheel turn round and ever some people - heaven forfend, make incorrect assumptions. Thanks for pointing out the error of my ways - I can't (and shouldn't have) assumed what another poster may or may not have meant. So I'll shoulder full responsibility for my own misinterpretations.

Most folks can do it to some degree but only those who are talented can really claim the title of witch. Elswyth's very own words

Oh fuck me, I take the time to move into a new place and look what happens.

If it makes you feel any better Woozle, I don't actually consider myself a Witch, unfortunately though, people that know me seem to and I usually get dragged into weird stuff. However Witch or not, if you are even a tiny bit sensitive to such matters you can spot those that have talent and those that don't.

This might be unpopular but like it or not it's true and I don't give two craps what you think about that anymore.

Please don't keep taking this personally it's getting boring. You are not the center of my universe. This is a discussion amongst many people and your comments are taken at face value along with everyone else's and i answer you as i would the others, noting more nothing less. If you write things as above, it is no good throwing a tantrum when someone replies. Please just grow up. If you cannot, and as i obviously stress you out so much please consider hitting the ignore user button and you may find you'll live better without me .

I suspect Elswyth finds it hard to understand that you are not being personal when you keep on referencing her words.

Sorry woozle, I don't hit the ignore button. It's a bad habit from being a mod on another site. But I can see why people think you pick on them, because you seem to disagree with certain people without actually saying why.

Jesus, instead of answering for someone else why not post about the original topic. I'm sure elswyth is more than capable of anwering for herself.
But anyway if you read above you will know that 'elswyth's own words' was referring to xalle's denial of anyone having said anything of the kind. Read the posts!
Then, i do not KEEP referring to her words as you say. Everyone on UKP quotes from everyone else al the time I think it is normal practice.
I didn't intend for you to hit the ignore user button I intended elswyth to hit it because I seem to irritate her.
as for disagreeing without saying why, if you read my posts half my problem is i spend to much bloody time saying why!!!!
Now can we get back to the thread which i was finding intereting until we started poking our tongues out a each other.

Woozle, would you like to borrow my handbag for a sec ?

as long as you are not going to argue about my swinging technique and if i start mincing about with it take it off me immediately.

Mod Hat On.

Come on guys, please stick to the topic.

I would just like to make a couple of things clear here.

At no point in my original (and obviously so contentious a reply) did I claim to either be or have the hotline on who is the best or greatest Witch. I simply made an observation on how I see the difference between a spellcrafter and a Witch.

Secondly, as Jools has already said, it is hard not to take comments personally when your words are the ones being quoted in an insulting way. Maybe I am misreading you Woozle however maybe you should also take more care in your wording when you post so as to avoid these kind of misunderstandings. As for saying why you disagree with someone, you don't really or indeed you are not very clear about it. I had no idea from your initial reply to me that you thought I was claiming to be whatever. You didn't make that clear at all.

As for ignoring people, no, that would be rude and I would rather know when someone is making nasty or insulting remarks about me or something I post than to sit blindly and wonder where all the in jokes are coming from.

It seems to me that apart from being a rather contentious subject, as all witchy stuff seems to be, at least from a non-witch point of view, that it is one of those questions that cannot be answered to any satisfactory level. Everyone has their opinions and rightly so.

What is witchcraft? What is a witch? Frankly - who cares? There really are more important things to be concerned about. People do what they do. As far as I am concerned no one or no one group has the rights on the words "witch" or "witchcraft". It's a bit like quantum mechanics - anyone who claims to understand it doesn't actually understand it.

As to the question I think that the answer is yes. But it depends on how one interpretes what it is you are doing. Some people say they are working with energies. Others say they are casting spells. Some would say they are altering reality. But I have to admit that since everything is composed of energy vibrating at different wavelengths then it probably amounts to the same thing, regardless of what you want to call it.

I've read a lot of threads on UKP on these sorts of subjects, and having taken on all views, I guess I've concluded that there are very many kinds of 'witchcraft' and equally as many types of 'witch'.

I read the arguments about experience, talent, ability etc, and only get confused.

I began to try to practice spellcraft after becoming a pagan, within the confines of a pagan religion I no longer practice. I only found out much later that one of my great grandmothers was an accomplished witch, and that some of her abilities seem to have come down to my father and, through him (because some are the same) to me. I also learned techniques, not commonly allied to witchcraft but seem to be common to certain witches of any pagan path (or none), and to some who do not practice any form of witchcraft. I refer to walking between the worlds.

What I do and how I do it is only partly aligned with the religion I now hold (Heathenry). However, I also know that not all the knowledge has been written into texts we have access to, so that doesn't bother me. I am what I am. For some of what I am, there seems to be no name, and the things I do, and how I do them, seems to be fragmented across different paths so, when I call what I do a form of 'witchcraft' the name sits uneasily, and books about witchcraft don't address it. That doesn't worry me either.

Like the word 'pagan', I'm content to use the words 'witch' and 'witchcraft', even though the sort of things they seem to convey to most people aren't always an accurate fit. But do we need to go around the circles of defining these terms when no conversation I have ever seen or taken part in arrives at a satisfactory conclusion?

In the end, it seems to me, the most we can do is gain a glimpse of what others mean when they discuss these terms. And often, it also seems that many of us cannot find a really good fit in terms of describing what it is we feel, or do. Sometimes I catch a glimpse, buried in a post, that resounds for me, and I think to myself "Yes! I've been there! I know that!" but that's rare.

And does it matter; does it really matter, whether someone we think hasn't a clue feels they, too, would use the label. How do we know what they mean by it? How can we, unless we are willing to work alongside them, IRL, and feel it for ourselves? For the rest - does it affect what I do or how I do it? Does it impinge on my life? No. I'll just continue to quietly get on with what I'm doing, learn from others where I can, and maybe touch base when something someone says touches me. And that's fine. I've long since learned there is so much to learn, and none of us know all there is. We only do what we are capable of doing - and what we feel driven to do, when we feel driven to do it. To the best of our ability... whatever that is.

Hooray!

I cant say Im a Witch or that I practise Witchcraft! Though many Pagans Ive met would say I am, funnily enough, usually the ones who call themselves Witches!
But it doesnt fit how I feel or think, I use the term Shamanism / Animism because it fits slightly closer, but thats not quite right either!
Its mainly me being me! or CS Craft if you like!
The Labels are simply there to give us a general starting point on which to build and learn about each other as Unique Individuals! There are many terms and labels we use eg 'Walking between Worlds', 'Seidr', 'Journeying', they all mean basically the same sort of thing, yes ,they are unique to each Individual, so there will be slight differences in technique, reasons for, what happens, etc, but we basically all understand the Meaning behind these Labels!
The same could be said of the Labels Witch and Witchcraft!

Persactly

Absofeckinglutley!

You have eloquently summed up exactly my thoughts, and what I've wanted to say in a few threads on this forum.

I have no problem with people calling themselves witches. It's when they play that game of "you tell me and I'll tell you if you're right"- that is misleading. It often means endless pages of cat and mouse, until tempers escalate. Now some may try to accuse me of the same in my fancy for science, but the terms are no big mystery. Just type them into Wiki and its all there. I'm not about to write whole volumes on it when that's already been done quite thoroughly. Rather, like anyone else exploring the cosmos around them, took my observations to the library and checked it out, then experimented and observed further. At least everyone I know that's interested, does that. One can try to say the same for witchcraft books but I find these often too limited in their views of causality. Fine, if that's what they want to believe in- all the reason not to argue where they missed the big picture if they insist on questioning me. As far as I'm concerned it all boils down to psychic ability in the realization of the integrity of your existence. That doesn't necessarily require some paranormal ability, rather, evolving your sensory and mental faculties to some sort of "state of the art". In this respect, things like empathic and clairvoyant abilities are actually amongst the countless possibilities. Mind over matter/metaphysics/magic.

As for witchcraft without being a witch, there's alot of indigenous cultures out there that do it without necessarily calling themselves witches.

Couldn't agree more Quasi - and there are also some people who, despite stating that they are NOT a Witch, profess otherwise elsewhere. Odd.