I came across this article via a blog, and it gave me food for thought (no pun intended BTW!).

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/pages/Ho...Id=1.1.1&sflg=1

Also, some of his explanation,

http://www.wftv.com/news/16798008/detail.html

Basically, a student in America stole (?) a communion wafer, much to the (IMO understandable) consternation of the rest of the congregation.

Now, there are those who would ridicule the notion that for RCs the communion wafer becomes the flesh of Christ , and that's their prerogative.
What intrigued me about this though, was how would people of other faiths, including Pagan beliefs, feel about a participant removing something of religious significance from a ceremony/rite/place of worship.

Obviously I don't suppose this question will apply to Atheist Witches with regard to their own practices, as they have no belief in deity (though I may find myself corrected here!) but I'd welcome views and opinions from members.

No you are quite right, as an athiest... witch or not..., I dont have anything "sacred" in a deity sense. However it doesnt mean I dont have things I consider precious.

As for understanding how others would feel, who do believe in gods... I can imagine they would feel the same way I would.. outraged.



This is nothing but a selfish act. It shows no respect for the religion and no respect for the people of that religion. It's wrong... plain and simple.

Thanks for posting this, Tas - I am amazed at the fuss being made here. The guy didn't steal the eucharist as such, it was his share of the eucharist - he only didn't put it in his mouth. Also, I get the impression that had not an officious member of the congregation leapt out and barred his way insisting that he put it in his mouth right then, he would have put it into his mouth after showing it to his friend, which was all he wanted to do. Is that disrespectful? What about the woman who barred his way - was she not being disrespectful towards his intention?

I suppose the motivation is to keep the secrets and the mysteries, but still the church members come out of it looking petty-minded, imo.

You could make a direct parallel with an open pagan ceremony such as I have attended. They hand around a cup of wine and a tray of bread or cake. You could, I guess, take a piece of cake to show it to your friend. But that would not be seen as disrespectful - nobody stands over you to make sure you actually consume the bread. And anyway, you wouldn't do it, would you? No point.

Maybe if you had a sacred alter cloth and someone stepped on it....

They're control freaks, these Catholics, aren't they?

it does seem a bit petty. I can't see the difference between putting it in your mouth and eating it and taking it away for later consumtion. Not iexactly kidnap is it. Surely if it's the body of christ it doesn't matter what you do with it as long as you are not disprespectful. Like most people these days excess uptightness reigns. In my MiL's church in turin because of the hygiene laws the priest leaves the eucarist in a bowl and you help yourselves, same religion different level of uptightness.
I'd love to have seen the news of the world's take on this.

I agree with Julai on this he did not steal it, he seems to have accepted it with the intention consuming it as was the intention that it was given, there is no stipulation in the Catholic Church as far as I am aware that you must consume your share of the eurcharist immediately upon being given it, it is merely a tradition that you do so.

The attitude of the Church and the Catholic bodies in this case is appalling and they wonder why with such a hysterical and unChristian attitude that people turn away from them. If they don't want people to learn about them and their practices then perhaps they should follow the example of Scientology.

Storm Raven

My guess is there may be some sensitivity around taking the communion wafer away as this is a practice associated with sensationalists who will use the consecrated wafer in mockerys of the Catholic mass.

I consider the actions of the student were definitely misguided - there are other ways to get to see what a communion wafer looks like. It does seem a disrespectful way to treat something that many Catholics regard as the actual body of Christ as a curiosity. Having said that, the actions of the woman who apprehended the culprit were ever so slightly over the top.

Rhiannon

What might be parallels in other faiths?
It's also interesting to see people's different reactions/views re this.

I do not think he had a right to take it away just because he was apprehended, if he wanted to show it to the friend and then consume it then thats what he should have done, consumed it not take it away and refuse to give it back or consume it straight away after showing the friend, sounds like something my 6 yr old would when throwing a strop.

The person who laid hands on him also had no right and over reacted, I would be a bit upset myself about the eucharist being treated like a curiosity but not enough to do more than verbally question the student, if it were something I considered sacred then I understand the congregation being disturbed by this. Having been brought up strict catholic I do know the importance of the eucharist to the mass rite and what comes to mind is since it is meant to be the living body of christ, and non believers are considered to be under the devil's spell, the worry about it being removed from the church could lead to the fear of it being used in offerings to satan etc.

My own impression from reading the articles is that the student did not go to the mass with the intention of bringing the eucharist home or to be so disrespectful to the other members of the congregations belief, this started out as a misunderstanding and has continued on with both sides refusing to back down with injured pride.

In Wicca the chalice is representative of the female, and as such the contents would be held equally sacred to a Wiccan. What if someone took either the chalice or its contents? Would there be an outcry among all Wiccans?

I'm using Wicca only as an example btw. I realise that Pagan Paths lack the infrastructure of the Abrahamic faiths, so does this make them more vulnerable to plundering?

What if someone took a candle from a church or shrine? Or flowers? Would this be similar? Is it the act of removal (regardless of whether it was premeditated theft or not) that is so upsetting - or is it the fact that WHAT was removed was of a particular importance to the religion (in this case Catholocism)?

Dear Tas,



I don't think there'd be an outcry among all Wiccans, but the Wiccans who happened to be there would almost inevitably ensure a rapid removal of the chalice and contents from the offending party, followed by the rapid removal of the offending party from the vicinity.

As a Wiccan, I'm not actually sure I'd feel a sense of sacrilege in such a situation, or at least not one equivalent to that one might expect a devout Catholic to feel. Believing in the reality of the Gods and Goddesses, it seems a bit presumptuous for a human being to pass judgement, condemn and punish on their behalf. And as far as human feelings are concerned, if someone was really intent on deliberately insulting Wicca by thus disrupting a rite - well, by behaving in such a way they'd simply be demonstrating their own defects of character. If the Gods truly took offence at idiots, there probably wouldn't be so many of them.

BB,

john Macintyre

I think the crux of this is that none of us were actually there when this "theft" took place, reading between the lines I am inclined to believe that his behaviour prior to this wasn't exactly exemplary, could this be why someone actually noticed that he had not consumed the Eucharist? It sounds to me like a teenager taking the piss, and in which case yes, it is sacrilegious.

This is an OVER-exaggeration with the worldwide fury:



Respectfully, he should have consumed it during Mass. But stories like this above, do NOT do the RC Church any more favours in my opinion! And what happened to 'forgiveness'? Jesus forgave! God forgives! All forgotten!

A similar thing happened at my High school. One student took the Holy Communion back to his seat to examine and to show his friend. One of the teachers caught the boys 'playing with it', they got into trouble, sent to detention, end of story!!

Though not being an offerings sort of person i do leave things at the various rock altars in the valley. If someone were to remove the offerings i don't see that this would make any difference because the offering has already been made and becomes redundant.
imo removing anything that is not an offering, challices, cups, athames etc. which are personal property regardless of spritual value would supposedly be classed as theft.
If someone drains the unconsecrated wine from the cup before the ritual, wgaf? Top it up again. If they do it afterwards surely the gods, if anyone, will have their say.
I really canìt see though what removing a eucarist has to do with anything. As i said here insome places you get to pick the one you want as it were, presumably, if the priest is not looking take two or three even, but you wouldn't though because if you are inthe church in the first place and even line up to get one it would imply that you are a believer therefore not likely to do anything naughty. This guy is propbably reacting against all the flak. After all if he believes this is the body of christ then surely it is between him and christ. If he doesn't, it's just a bit of wafer.
The world is going mad.

I just wanted to add, that if they want to do things 'right', then by right they should also be given the water (turned into wine) which represents the blood of jesus christ.

The Eucharist conveniently represents both the 'bread' and the 'wine'. At the last supper, all had bread and all had wine. At normal mass, only the priest drinks from the chalice.