The replies in the "End of a life" thread have sparked a question for me.

I mentioned it within that thread, but it was fairly off-topic and probably might be better discussed separately, hence this thread

I have been on quite a few pagan sites, as well as new age and even interfaith, and it seems to me that the pagan sites seem to have a higher than average proportion of people who have, in fact, been dealt shitty hands, and have hit rock bottom at some time during their lives.

I'm wondering if paganism has something about it that feels more like an answer for those people than the other paths or religions? And if it has, I wonder what it is? The connection to nature and the earth, the tolerance of diversity? The anti-patriachy? Or even the rejection of mainstream society's morality and hypocracy?



Amethystine

I felt, in my former paths, that I was taught that bad things happened to me because I was bad, or I had done something wrong, or had "chosen" that path, or any of a number of things. I did have my harder share of things but recently I've taken a lot of what I've read in Steppenwolf to heart; that Fate tends to reserve such tests for her most sensitive children.

People who suffer extensively more than most are capable of great cruelty and also great beauty. Most artists, musicians, Steppenwolves, basically, are those who have had a pretty crap hand in life. They are the suicides - who don't necessarily commit suicide but grimly keep going to see just how much they can take before they break.

I've definitely had my lower-than-low points, and I really hated the Universe for them now and again. Wasn't I busting my bum for the universe with ritual, with trying to stick to my Path, even when the Xtians would tell me that the reason life was so crap for me was because I'd turned away from Jesus? Losing so much, and being asked to lose even more, which as Herman Hesse relates, indeed helped me gain much, but at a huge cost which seemed to seperate me further and further away from common society. but this poem about Oya pretty much summed it up for me.



YOU!
There! You with the tears!
What you cry for girl?
You Mama's baby?
Need milk from Breast?
I no feel sorry?
STOP!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nine Skirts Twirl
Winds and Gales whirl
Lightening cracks and swirls

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FEAR NOT!
Ya know you are my girl!
Oya take you
Make you or break you, Child!
We dance together now
I no feel sorry
You are me!
Together WE be!
Step into your power now!
COME!
Ride The Winds Of Change
With Me
We work the Sacred Gris-Gris!
And, Girl
Bring some of that eggplant,
I be hungry!


Make you, or break you. There's being flexible and then there is not bending over backwards. There is the steely Hep Mama stare. That doesn't give me a shiny-happy, always-look-on-the-bright-side-of-life point of view to the world. It gives me a "Bring it on, if you're feelin' froggy, then JUMP" point of view. Anything I come across, I can get out of. Anything that blocks me, I can mow through. I've done it before, I'll do it again. I have the gods at my back and my ancestors at the ready. My Spear is in my hand if I need it.

It's not strength, or courage, or anything so high-brow. The thing that keeps me going even at the worst is plain, sheer bloodymindedness.

i can relate to most of what badkitty said. people have asked me where i get my motivation, my drive from. they usually look at me a bit weird when i tell them its because i'm a stubborn b!tch (especially if i tell them i'm as stubborn as my father - he's the cause of most of the bad things i've had to deal with, but he did give me the strength to deal with it, so why whinge?). when you hit rock bottom you do some serious soul serching, and once i found that the only reason that i didn't kill myself was to piss someone off. bloody great reason hey. my only reason for living was to piss someone off.

in paganism there tends to be something for everyone who has been through hell. there are those (like me) who'll follow a path that doesn't lay blame, and just tells you to get on with it, instead of sitting there feeling sorry for yourself, or there are those who follow a path that gives them the necessary tools and time to heal, instead of making them feel guilty. mainstream religions tend to play the blame game far too much, and in my veiw they usually end up blaming the wrong person. also i think the tollerance is a big drawing card, particularly for those who are gay, bi, lesbian or transgender. there are few religions that will even allow such people in, much less celebrate them as being as important as the next person.

Then there are those who revel in their misfortune. I'm thinking here of the sham shamans who have read somewhere that to become a shaman you must suffer so choose something in their life where they "suffered" even though they may now be living in a big house, with money in the bank, and their own private swimming pool.

Rhionnach

Brings up an interesting point, there:

I'm not of the opinion that you must be poor to be a shaman, or even a good witch. I lived without my creature comforts for a long time - years. I won't do it again. My idea of roughing it is Howard Johnson's. My husband makes quite a bit of money these days and while we're still scraping due to a pretty bad year, we've been worse. I refuse to "rough it". I don't go camping. Even if I were to life a self-sufficient lifestyle, I'd still have my internet, my washing machine, my dishwasher, and my hot water.

I don't necessarily believe that you can only be taken seriously if you're in sackcloth and ashes. Suffering is labelled differently by everyone - I feel it's a very Xtian influenced trait that one should always pull oneself up by one's bootstraps and remember all those starving people in other countries - suicidal people are half depressed in and of themselves, and further depressed because society tells them they have nothing to worry about. Prime example?




Marylin Monroe. Beautiful, lots of money, and miserable; and all of society told her she had no right to be miserable because she had "everything". So she put her happy mask on - and when the happy mask broke and everyone told her to get over herself, she did. And good bye, Norma Jean.

Again, this is why Paganism speaks to me. I can cuss the deities out. I can flip them the Cosmic Bird and can rant and rail. I feel I'm allowed to get angry, to not just accept what I'm given, and to fight it if need be. To Have Words with the powers that be if I need to and to get things sorted. And that no sense of pseudo-humility dictates that I need to do it and just eat rice for months on end.

Everything but happiness.

I feel that paganism doesn't have that kind of attachment to it - that only "good and true" witches/shamans/etc are the ones wandering as monks without anything. That's a purely Judeo-Christian philosophy, the martyr-complex that we're all saddled with at birth, that we should never have a moment to grieve, or to shake our fists to heaven and shout WHY???? We should bow our heads subserviently and thank the Lord for our dead family, our inability to feed ourselves or our children, because we must be humble, and anyone who has money has never suffered a day in their lives, which just isn't true. To do what thou wilt, as long as you don't act like a twit.

I think you might be right there. I know a lot of pagans who are gay, bisexual or somehow different from the arbitrary 'norm'.

One of the things that has always annoyed and perplexed me about religions such as Christianity, in particular the more extreme, fire-and-brimstone type branches thereof, is the implication that if you believe in Christ (for example), then you MUST believe in this thing, that thing and the other. If, say, the other strikes you as ridiculous or impossible to follow, then it's your fault and you are not fit to be part of it. There's a line in Chariots of Fire - "The kingdom of God is not a democracy". That's always unnerved me somewhat.

I've gone off on a slight tangent, but the point is that if you are different from the perceived ideal, whether you can control that fact or not, many religions simply don't want you and some would wish you dead. Speaking for myself, the idea of devoting my life to a God whose followers tell me that I should burn in Hell is not appealing.

I think the more flexible nature of a lot of pagan paths (and the presence of the option to take which aspects suit your inherent beliefs and start from there) is very attractive to those who don't fit elsewhere.

As for the other aspect of this thread - I can sort of see where Badkitty and AmethystCameo are coming from, with the idea of hanging on through sheer stubbornness. With me, it's a bit different, in that I don't really know what's got me through everything so far. I've been about as low as it's possible to get on a number of occasions in the last ten years and I've always come out of the other end. Scarred, yes, tougher, yes, but still living. Sometimes other people have played a big part in it, such as certain key individuals who were around me when my problems were leading to my drinking far too much and taking rather too many drugs a couple of years ago - someone dragged me out by my toenails and I'm glad they did. However, no matter how close to the edge I've got, I'm still here. There must be something inside us that's stronger than we know and it won't stop fighting. Maybe that's part of the force that's bound up in everything?

Peace,

lyi.

PS - I'm transsexual, by the way.

Often, people who see themselves with no hope will grasp and anything that they feel will offer comfort and that generally is religion. Christians are into suffering and offers a reason why people suffer, which brings them closer to Christ, who suffered on the cross. And besides, they teach that this life offers a respit and the end of suffering will come at the end of life but only if you believe.

I had a friend who when at the end of her rope went born again Christian on me, which was a complete turn about for her as she never had much of a belief in anything prior to that. She was wild and had gotten herself kicked out of more than one state due to her antics. Nothing criminal, except for prostitution. Another friend went from a Catholic upbringing, to Athiesism and now is a born again as well. Others will lose their faith and will turn to alternative religions. Some, I think are attracted to Paganism specifically for the lack of dogism. Many have doubts with Christianity and Paganism offers more of a spiritual ideal.

In the end, it is still up to us at some point to realize that life is pretty much what you make it. Of course this doesn't mean that a devestating accident that renders people to spend their lives in a wheel chair is anyones fault but the way you view your situtation is. One can wallow in depression and although totally understandable, tends to make people feel worse and worthless.

People tend to act out when they are unhappy or depressed. Drug and alcohol abuse is a way for people escape the way they are feeling by obliterating the pain and sometimes it takes years to get out of that viscious cycle until we come close to death and see that as a wake up call or suddenly realize that you are the one who made the decisions you made and is causing you to slowly self destruct.

Living ain't easy, it never has been.

What littleyellowidol said about pagans tending to not be part of societys norm group really struck a chord with me, I do think that people who generally fit into the base group of societys average normal people who find it easy to fit in with the usual xtian norms. If you get what I mean...

It's a lot harder for someone who can see beyond the bible and stuff to really believe in what xtianity tends to be all about.

I have generally found that pagans are much more friendly within their group and are generally concerned with whats happening to the earth.
Whereas xtians can use God as an excuse and turn a blind eye.
Not all do, in fact quite a few dont, take for exaple, Oxfams massive fair trade campaign. But that tends to be it, most xitians dont even recycle and stuff.

A point I really set out to make was that when you get dealt a bad hand in life, it usually helps you see things from difrent perspectives and you start to become more understanding, and I think that just makes you look beyond what xianity says..

Dont know what pulled me through my depression.All i know is that one day i said to myself,"i'm going to get over this".
Always had pagan leanings,but it's been the last 3-4 years that I've got into it more.
It feels right,makes me feel free,if you get my meaning.
What I've beginning to realise now is that for years I was thinking that if I was good and worked hard and did this and that,good things would happen.
Something xtrian thats drummed into people.
It doesnt work like that.People walked all over me,but still I'd work hard thinking i was doing the right thing.
When some guy came along and wanted to go out with me I thought at last something goods hapenning to me.
Well 0f course it didnt work and everything just went rapidly down hill and it's not been a good year.
Thinking hard about things I'm realising I have to go out and start the ball rolling if I want stuff to happen.
If I do want a bf I've got to show my face a bit more,go a few more places.
I've started Karate for instance and am going to do some evening classes.
I found this site while going through one of my lowest periods.I started posting and found people here so helpfull and kind.Thats helped.
Life isnt allways brill but there are some nice bits.
I'm sometimes down,sometimes up.I've found that I'm not letting people walk all over me.It's come as a bit of shock to some people that I wont jump and do what they want without question.
I do feel different,in a strange way I feel a bit stronger.

PS.The UKP residents are a nice bunch and have really bolstered me up.Thanks

I can relate to most of this. I first discovered paganism during a period of prolonged unemployment and financial hardship. My beliefs and the people around me who shared them helped me get through very difficult times. I eventually got a job, then moved to another job and lost contact with everyone, and with the changing seasons and phases of the moon.

I turned back earlier this year when my marriage started to fall apart, when I discovered my wife of 22 years had been having an affair for the past 2 years which I had been blissfully unaware of, as I trusted her implicitly. We made (or so I thought) every effort to put things behind us/me, but she started seeing him again, which I found out about and both agreed to call it a day and separate.

I have had much help and assistance privately from people here, you know who you are, and it has helped me get through a very traumatic time, without falling into the depression that I would otherwise suffer. I'm feeling optimistic about the future, and excited at the prospect of finding new friends and hopefully, in time a new relationship with someone extra-special.

I suppose it is at 'rock bottom' times that thoughts turn to what its all about, some get out of it through born-againnery (and become self-righteous *ssholes in the process), others (like me) find pagan spirituality empowering (power from within), to tackle the world as a warrior rather than as a victim.

And when I'm REALLY down, I write a song or poem.

Blessings to all

Boris

From another angle, in 1984 worked on a survey of drugs and religion at Glastonbury & Stonehenge festivals, and found pagans (about 10%) to be heavier users of drugs (or have a heavier drug history) than any other religion (including Rastas).

Did this mean pagans who rejected society's norms were more likely to take drugs, or that people who had taken more drugs or had more drug problems were more likely to turn to paganism to fill the spiritual gap in their lives?

Or did use of drugs (e.g. cannabis, LSD, peyote, mushrooms) create or facilitate a positive spiritual experience which led them to paganism?

Boris

I didn't mean that you can only be a good witch, shaman, or whatever if you are poor but you know and I know that there are a lot of fakes out there who are deluding people.

Rhionnach

Oh I know, Rhi, but it brought up a good point because I've heard people say that so-and-so must be a fake because look at all the money they have! It seems a very Judeo-Christian tie-in that one cannot be spiritual unless one has no material possessions, and as a result folks sneer at anyone with more than they have - which has always seemed more a sop to jealousy than anything else.

So I wasn't taking a stab at you but in my fibro-addled brain, it allowed me to make a long, expansive, rambling comment that may or may not have had a point! Go me!

Oo.. thats a good question, Boris


And on the wealth thing, that judaeo/christian archetype is so ingrained in society that I think we all have to fight to get past it to some extent.

Also, I think the UK is rather odd in that it has a bit of a distrust for money in general. Compare to the US, where the poor people are "trailer trash" or whatever.

Here, we call them "salt of the earth".

There's a kind of British pride and heroism in having nothing, and I'm not entirely sure why.

Amethystine

we like losers, that's why. Success is a bit, 'showy' for the old British reserve. For some weird reason we like to have a noble effort and valiant defeat more than we like to win. Look at how much the papers like to see a popular celeb fail?

Going back to the original question and Boris's observation re drug use, I'm wondering if there is more to this than just people being attracted to paganism for various reasons.

Could it be that some people, and I do stress the word SOME, are using paganism as a handy excuse to "drop out" of society, and generally let themselves wallow in their own "different-ness"?

And that, in fact, our very tolerance means that we get these frauds hanging on the fringes?

OR.... is it that people who embrace paganism feel more free to express that differentness in whatever form, whether it be drug use or other unusual lifestyle choices?



Amethystine

Eek, that's bit of a generalisation, mate.

Oddly enough, I've heard some Christians say that there's no point in taking care of the earth because the earth is flawed because it is only what was left after Original Sin - this isn't the Garden of Eden, so they have the right to trash it. Indeed, they've argued the point out in such a way that the conjecture is rather dizzying. I don't think it's so much a generalisation as another way of some Christians of subconsciously having a leak on the Earth-based religions. It's rather dizzying to realise just how many of these deepseated fears are the xtian vs. pagan thing...but then look at the current state of affairs with xtian vs. muslim.

It seems a very basic precept to keep people divided an arguing by setting religions against each other. It's a sort of divide and conquer. Control a people by destroying the religion and set up another in its place. Religions evolve because of persecution (Voudoun is a prime example of this) and become something completely new and different. Faith I have no issue with - Religion, however, pisses me off.

On the subject of drug use - many cultures have used drugs to fortell this or forsee that or, in some cases, as a desperate last stage measure to save their culture. And in other cases, it becomes "White Man's Plaything" as my rasta uncle calls drugs.

I think anyone can use anything as an excuse to drop out. But I don't necessarily see dropping out of society as such a bad thing. There is very little about society that actually makes sense....

Like this post Fibro fog strikes, I hope this made even a lick of sense.

Actually, interesting that bit about some Christians not seeing the point in taking care of the earth - that's a view shared by some of the further-right republicans in the US. The ones Bush probably agrees with, but can't mention in public.

Meanwhile, as a white, straight, fairly well-paid suit-wearin' kinda guy who first got into paganism in Uni, I'm feeling terribly left out here...

I'll get me coat.

That depends on your attitude, mate. A person is only left out if they make sure they're left out - staring through that homeless person as if they don't exist, turning one's nose up at the teenage mum, rolling one's eyes at the plight of others who are struggling or have just given up even trying because the world doesn't give a crap about them anyway and telling them to buck up. All those things that most people do on a daily basis, because they have (thankfully) never been there.

As I said, being successful doesn't make someone a non-pagan. But drawing a line between US and THEM...I can't see how a pagan person can do that and not be a hypocrite. And if you've got the success, hoarding it without spreading it around in one way or another is, to me, what being Pagan is about - most faiths are, but very few put it into practice.

In order to talk the talk, you gotta walk the walk, if you know what I'm saying. Leastaways, that's what I try to do, and when I feel myself getting too bourgeois, I go buy a homeless person something to eat, or give a poor single mum a hand with her shopping, or dress up in my freakiest clothes and make a note of the way people stare in disgust. It isn't always successful - there are folks out there who are just the scum of the earth, though I've found that they're likely to be whom you least expect, and of course, I'm human too and I have my own failings. I'm not a saint. Sometimes, that makes me bitter, but more often than not, it just reminds me of what - or who - is important.

Someday, I'm going to own enough land to plant an orchard, and grow veg, and if someone is hungry, they can come and get what they like. Food shouldn't have a pricetag, the Earth creates it for free. Giving back, that's what I'm about, in my own way.

Hm, after I've had my tea I'll read back over this and see if it makes sense.

EDIT: Actually, I just remembered something. I rode on a train back to Oxford in the company of a very very trashed uni student because she was a young chick in a porn co-ed outfit and some bloke there obviously had her marked as a target. So I sat with her and talked, and it made a really great article which I put up on my site and my journal. Reactions to it were interesting, but I took sympathy with her, and all my mates and other folks wrote to me and said "You must be a saint, how could you take sympathy with that spoiled little brat who never had to work for anything a day in her life???" etc etc.

But, see, she was scared. She was scared out of her mind. A friend of hers had been shot and killed in a visit to NYC two weeks' prior, and she was having an epiphany. Suddenly money and an education she didn't want didn't make any sense, but she was terrified to say anything to her parents because they "wouldn't buy her anything anymore". She was just realising that her life, as it was set up, wasn't going to mean squat, but she didn't know how to break out of the mold, and she was scared to death.

How could I NOT pity that? Yes, it was irksome to have someone so spoiled call me and My People "losers", how she called herself "Punk" (but if you know anything about punk, you know it doesn't come with rich parents and expensive uni fees) but she had her own armour, her own mask, and it was cracking. I wonder how she's doing now...

We're all human beings. As pagans, I think it's up to us to see that, and to recognise it, not because we're trying to buy our way into Heaven, but because we're honouring ourselves.

Or something.

Yep, underneath all the masks, the glitz, the threads, even the body tone, we're all human beings, and we all have the same basic needs and fears.

We arrive alone and we leave alone, and the whole of our lives are spent doing what we can to make the journey easier. Unfortunately, too many of us fail to realise that, and people DO judge books by their covers.

We've all met the show-off, the bloke with the flash car etc. etc. but who is he really? Why is he like he is? Chances are that he's a bloke who's scared to death and grabs on to everything like it was his last chance. He looks at the world and sees that the material stuff makes him more acceptable.
He's scared of rejection and of being left alone.

The woman, the one who dresses as though she were 30 years younger, and seems to have one disastrous relationship after another? She's trying to find the one person who will accept her for who she is. She looks at the world and sees that desirability makes her more acceptable. She's scared of rejection and of being left alone.

And the cool dude, the one with the huge circle of friends, the one who seems so laid back, and can be found at parties several times a week. Even with all those people around him, he feels alone. He desperately tries to reach out to people because he looks at the world and sees that popularity makes him more acceptable. He's scared of rejection and of being left alone.

The very thing we are is the very thing we fear.


We should all try to look further than the packaging and really SEE the people underneath the masks. We are all vulnerable, scared things. We just all use different defense mechanisms

Amethystine

This is interesting. I have to admit I wasn't really really feeling left out - I sometimes forget that dry humour doesn't go across the 'net well. Your last post was really interesting though BadKitty.

The crux of what you're saying seems to be that social values are an immutable element of all pagan paths. I have to be honest - I'm not convinced by this. I think social values are important (and all too rare these days) but aren't necessarily part of paganism - pagan paths might include it, but might not. As far as I'm concerned social values are more of a political thing, and I'd like to think there's room for right-wing pagans (they must exist somewhere) alongside the left-wing ones we already have.

People who are pagans aren't just pagans - they're left-wing pagans, right-wing pagans, pagans who are members of large families, pagans who've lost their families, pagans who don't even speak to their families anymore. Like I said, they're all pagans, but that's not all they are, and they don't have to agree on everything. Least of all, politics. In (my) ideal world, a couple of cashmere-clad highly-polished lawyers could walk into their local moot and feel just as welcome as a biker or a goth.

The original thread seemed to be saying that pagans have harder lives than non pagans. I don't know how one can back up this observation, made from the perspective of one person. All sorts of people have shitty lives. Christians have shitty lives too. And their reactions to the shit are not all as uniformly grovelling as some would like to suggest. There are all sorts of attitudes and shades of opinion within the definition of "christian", just as there are within the definition of "pagan".

The question surely ought to be, why do people have shitty lives and what can they do about it? Badkitty has eloquently answered the second question. What about the why?

Just suppose, for a moment, that before we come into this life, we decide to take on certain challenges. We see our future life from a universal point of view that is not possible once we arrive in the physical. We decide we'll have a go at strengthening certain aspects of our eternal nature by pitting ourselves against difficulties. Then we get born and we forget our magnificent plan, and the shit hits us.

We tend to think the point of life is to have fun and be happy and materially successful, but I have come to the conclusion that the whole point is to get through the shit. It's to survive the relationship breakups and all the other things. Does anyone remember Richard Dawkins (I think it was) and morphic resonance? One bluetit learns how to peck the top off the milk bottle and get the cream. Suddenly all the bluetits in the country know how to do it.

(And then, shit again! they go and invent plastic milk bottles...)

But the point is, if you learn to survive pain and come out stronger, you light the way for all the others who have pain. Either you are one of those, or you fell into the pain by mistake, but the only thing to do in either case is to learn to get out of it and help others do the same. I personally don't think this is a pagan thing. Everyone has their pain, only some hide it better.

It's also that paganism has only really emerged in the last century (yes, except for all those people who kept their paganism under wraps and called it Christianity or country lore or whatever). So most people weren't born into a pagan family they had to think about things and decide to become pagans, and being dealt a sh*tty hand and watching your life fall apart is a pretty good reason to question all the things you accepted before and look for another way.

Julai!! I've been trying to remember that man's name for AGES!

Is he the memory of water man?

Or the seven experiments to change the world man?

Or am I completely on the wrong track?

I've heard something like the blue tit theory before, except it was based on a critical mass being the catalyst for universal advancement. I think it's called the Hundredth Monkey theory?

On your point about our choices before we're born, I agree. I believe that some of us choose more "interesting" challenges than others.
I play a lot of computer games, and sometimes one can get quite emotionally involved in them, get adrenaline rushes and all sorts, as if it was real life. I wonder whether our lives are basically a kind of "game" that we're playing somewhere, but we got so immersed in it that we forgot we were playing.

And yes, people from other faiths do have their problems, but my observations were based on what I read. So.. perhaps pagans are more able to talk about their problems in public on the boards than the christians or whatever?

Amethystine

I have just joined, and was struck by the notion that pagan people are often those who have, at some point in there lives reached bottom or suffered greatly.

My own past is mixed, with lots of wonderful things and much happiness. Though over time that has changed to sadness and hitting what to me has been the bottom. I have gone through some bad times and Im still here, still optomistic. However, I dont think its what drew me to this path, not entirely.

I think past experiances have made me aware of the hypocrisy of much of society. There is a lot of control out there, from the power of global markets, to political spin, advertising hyperbole, and last but not least the established religions. So many agendas, its hard to find truth. But truth is all around us, in nature. Thats what drew me to Paganism and the goddess.

just an observation:
I have seen many Xians who when something horrific came into their lives "prayed" for relief or answers just as their religion had taught - when they didn't get what was expected in return, or recieved what they felt was nothing, then they didn't know what to believe in. I know of several who are athiest or at least agnostic at this point.
I was raised a Xian but never did buy the line about being taken care of just because I believed. That's why paganism called me: It is my idea that any God/dess helps those who try to help themselves - nothing for free that I've noticed.

Interesting topic. I have wondered about these things myself, having read a lot of pagan posts here and elsewhere. I agree with much that have already been said, but has another reflection, onr that you have already touched. Namely tolerance. Not just that you can find comfort and a tolerant haven among pagans, but the fact that we may be more open about our experiences and talk openly about depressions, losts, anger and fear.
I mean, take chistianity for example. Such feelings have been connected with shame and guilt, the concept of good and evil, heaven and hell have perhaps forced people to close their eyes to the less... agreeable aspects of life.
We know that life is a bloody rollercoaster (to quot the fabulous and wise mr. Keating) and shit does happen. To us all. So, what´s the fuss about? We talk about it, suffer, breakdown and move on.
Sort of.
Pagan believes, if one can talk about pagan believe as one concept, generally involves a more down-to-eath view of life and death and all the aspect inbetween. It is very human to err, to feel sad, to suffer, to doubt... so why not talk about it and perhaps help eachother a bit along the way? That is my opionion anyway.

Blessed be
Deerheart

What a thought provoking question.

I do not if the Pagan suffers a harder lot than a person of a different religion or a person with no religion. I think through life we all search for meaning for the crap that befalls us. No other way off life has offered me the answers I'm searching for.

Had an awful year last year. Went to a Xain counselling service. Now I'm not dissing the faith, perhaps I would go as far as to say the counsellor was a very narrow minded and perhaps didn't practise what she preached.

All my issues, in her opinion, were due to the fact that I was interested in Paganism (she had asked at the outset if I had a spiritual path), she carefully explained that various perils had befallen me becuase I had placed myself outside of God's love and protection and let Satan in.

Poor dear nearly choked when I said that I didn't believe in the devil. Not quite as much as when she was using a visulaisation technique which I suggested to her was in essense very similar to spell craft.

I guess my slant on this issue is Pagan's may not suffer more or less. I think that maybe we're just looking for different answers and perspectives on why we suffer and different ways to empower ourselves and alleviate our own pain.

Queenie

I have to say I've known some lovely xtain people who do care for the earth, who have a sense of awe at the beauty of nature and take a lot of time to help others. Some xtains don't. I've also seen many xtains suffer terribly because of the guilt their faith seems to bring - its not for me.

Do pagans suffer any more than anyone else - I doubt it. Suffering is relative, and how can you compare really?

The key thing for me is taking responsibility for my life, just because I'm learning magic andspell craft, doesn't mean life is any easier, its not a short cut, I still have to put in the hardwork. I was never comfortable just leaving something up to God, in some repsects appealed to the lazy side of my nature, but well, I guess theh faith wasn't there, so I never could beleive my needs would be met.

Do i suffer now more than I did as a non pagan - no I don't think so, life is shit at times and at other times its wonderful. Life is life, the suffering comes with the joy!