Hello. I am curious to know whether the practise of VLF would be considered "pagan" or not.

Picture the scene... It's dusk in the wilds of Cornwall as several guys and a couple of females descend a coastal footpath and enter a cave. To anyone looking on it may seem innocent enough. But what they are about to engage in is the ultimate taboo in the eyes of many, breaking the first of the so-called Commandments: "You shall have no other gods before me."

So we're not talking about human sacrifice here, which is way down the list of naughtiness. No, we're talking about human worship. Or, rather, the worship of the divine feminine as manifested form.

Welcome to my life. Welcome to VLF.

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The Genesis Document

Some religious traditions teach that the Source, being love, had to create another, out of itself, in order to have something external to which that love could be given. But this is not exactly the case. Rather, in simple terms, Source naturally gave rise to spirit (which is awareness), and when the Source saw itself reflected in spirit, self-awareness resulted. The love between itself and its own reflection was a closed loop. However, this relationship was not satisfactory, so spirit created the masculine, out of itself. And because this child was of the source, it would have a natural desire to love and return to the source, which we call the feminine. Yet, the masculine is not truly separate from the source, just as a baby in the womb is not truly separate from its mother.

This apparent duality reflected itself once more, this time as the apparently physical universe of polarities; the playground of the gods. Here too the living feminine is a reflection of spirit (potentially), just as the man (masculine creation) comes out of the woman (feminine source). In other words, the feminine (Goddess) is looking upon her own physical manifestation from the illusion of an external perspective (the masculine). This was deemed to be the optimal solution in the absence of any genuine "entity" or reality external to the Source.

Individuals are themselves a reflection of this arrangement, in that they not only love themselves, but also apparent "others." In truth, of course, a woman's desire for a man is nothing other than her need to love herself THROUGH the man. The sex organs of men are external because the masculine is external to the feminine, whilst still being a creation of the feminine, in both spiritual and physical terms. The sex organs of women reflect the fact that she is the potential creator of life, with assistance from the masculine aspect (just as the physical universe arose from both the feminine spirit, or Goddess, and her masculine "creation.") The breasts of women reflect the way in which the Goddess sustains the masculine offspring with her own energy. A man's attraction to them in the physical world should therefore be no mystery!

That we are able to pleasure ourselves, sexually (without the need of another) reflects the fact that the Source both loves and is in relationship with itself, without an authentic "other." Everything is ultimately a reflection of the spiritual reality, through which the masculine aspect was created, giving rise to all apparent dualities.

In the absence of manipulation, man will naturally worship the most apparent reflections of the Goddess as form, particularly when her physical beauty is matched by an obvious feminine nature (gentleness, altruism, patience, etc). His feelings go beyond erotic love, because such women remind him of his true spiritual source. And this "spiritual love" is the veneration that leads to worship. A woman doesn't naturally have such feelings for the man, of course, because she is the source and he is the creation. Her own spiritual love of the Goddess is properly reflected in the way she lives her life. Letting go of her egoic identity is the greatest sacrifice she can make, yet doing so will only benefit her, for it is the Goddess herself who fills the void.

The ego then is a consequence of existing as an apparently isolated unit, which reflects itself as the entire system of control that we've been living under for thousands of years. For, just as the ego dominates and manipulates one's true self, so the power structures of the world seek to dominate and manipulate the population in general. This particular phase is ending, however, as people begin to awaken to the true nature of reality and themselves, which is Oneness. So there is no real enemy to fight in the physical world. Going beyond ego as individuals will be reflected in the bigger picture, eventually leading to the paradise we call home. And home, of course, is a physical reflection of the "sacred circuit," which loves and worships itself through and as itself, in full knowledge and awareness of doing so. No energy is lost because no energy is directed outside of the circuit (as has been the case here, not least through religion). The breaking of this sacred circuit is ultimately a consequence of apparent duality (on and off), just as the ego is a consequence of awareness living as form.

This is my understanding of reality, in the simplest possible terms. I put it forward with love and in the spirit of Oneness that it seeks to nurture.

Simple diagram:


[attachmentid=1413]

Are you saying then that woman is "all" and that men are simply a creation from woman and extraeneous to woman?

Is your path entirely female focussed and don't you find that a bit unbalanced?

Are you saying in your view that the feminine can only be found in women and as such only a woman can channel the Goddess and a male can only contain the masculine the creation of the Goddess?

HMMMMMMMMMM....Well Ive read the thread, I dont have a problem with the Oneness stuff; the Oneness being Female in nature? It makes sense! The first God / dess was a Mother, in my mind; No problems so far.........
I tend to view the God and Goddess as one being 'God/dess', more accurately the God and Goddess entwined in a sort of Yin / Yang type of embrace and act of Creation, it takes both to create life.
So tend to give them equal ranking, though if questioned to the limit, the Goddess is more important as she does most of the real work.
But sorry having watched all the 'Matrix-y' type hype, on the 5 Conversation vids, despite being Cornish, I wont be starting up a VLF group any time soon!
Sorry!

No. Men often demonstrate more feminine qualities than women... because they are, after all, "the Goddess" behind the "lens" of masculinity which she uses to love and worship herself. In terms of potential, however, only the female can perfectly reflect the Goddess, because woman is the physical reflection of the Goddess in terms of this reality. I say potential, because as autonomous egoic systems, it is by no means the default setting.

Strong male characteristics, such as aggression and competitiveness, have no relevance to the Source; they have no relevance to any singularity in the absence of "other." Yet they exist as potentials, for everything is potential within the Source, without being a characteristic of the Source (which is Love). So the feminine could be considered the "default setting." And what we might consider to be the "masculine aspect" is a creation of the Source, and yet not truly separate from the Source (because nothing can be truly separate). It is a trick that the Source is playing upon itself. The masculine is a tool, a lens, a mirror.... a piece of software on the "hardware" that is the Source, giving rise to all apparent duality.

Apparently masculine behaviour in women is not a reflection of the divine, but a consequence of living as an egoic system in a manipulated reality.

Anyway, I think it's fair to say that, from the point of puberty onwards, the "path" of man is naturally female focused! This is what it's all about, although we obviously have a corrupted version of it in modern society. The woman also is naturally "male focused," and indeed IS the male (beyond the illusion). The Goddess wears the "mask" of masculinity in order to appreciate herself from an apparently external perspective. She naturally loves the masculine, therefore, because it allows this amazing dynamic to take place.

So this looking at each other (male and female), loving each other, enjoying each other... is the primary game/reality. And, for me, it represents perfect balance.

That's how you see things and that's fine for you however I can not agree. humanty creates gods amd goddess in its own image to presume to beleive otherwise is persumptus (sp ) in my opion.

A number of paths refer to a whole universal spirit about the beings we refer to as the gods and goddess. with the male and female gods being there so that we can better understand the whole.

I think you have taken your point of view and built a beleif structure on it whilst that is fine for yourself it is limited to only those with your point of view as its to narrow to include difference.

but if it works for you thats OK

One can obviously "pitch it" in various ways, and the Matrix theme will no doubt appeal to some.

Despite not wishing to start a group, however, I'm sure that - as a male - the "natural way" of worshipping the manifesation of the Goddess as form has, and will continue, to represent a significant aspect of your life. Whenever you buy your girlfriend a gift (offering), it is honouring the Goddess. Whenever you do something you'd rather not do (because it makes your girlfriend happy), it is honouring the Goddess. Whenever you express your love physically to a woman, it is honouring the Goddess.

The life of heterosexual man is focused upon "recognizing" the Goddess as form and then "sacrificing" to her in an attempt to win her favour. He is often essentially begging her to allow him to express his love. And when she accepts, his sacrifices continue... although it's all pitched in terms of "romance and relationship."

Do not be deceived, however... despite the "spin" and manipulation, the "worship" of the living feminine is at the heart of most mens' lives. It's VLF in all but name.

I'm sorry but I reckon thats rot. Have you ever seen a mother protect her young. Trust me you dont get more aggressive than that.

Or could it be that he just hopes his lucks in that night?

For millenia we have been witness to male dominance and the complete subjugation of women.

I fought for my rights as a woman way back and as an ageing feminist I'm actually quite disgusted in what I now see as an attempt to completely emasculate the male.

Women and men should live in harmony with an equal respect whilst still understanding the differences.

Vive la difference, but not to the detriment of the other!

I dont have any problems with how I worship women and there are a few I have worshiped!
But I dont always do what they want, that would just make me their Slave, Im not into S&M, nor am I an emotional blackmail victim, the woman I would Worship, would Worship me back, it would be an equal Partnership, each empowering the other; sometimes compromises have to be made, but thats life!
I hope you are not just in a very sad relationship, were you amount to little more than a doormat!

I'm confused. Is this VLF something you have invented to accomodate your ideas or is it something which already exists which you are a member of? It's all new to me anyway.
By the way, what does VLF stand for?

Go on then - put me outta my misery! What does the "L" stand for?
Oh no - let me try and guess...
Veneration of the Female - erm, Living? Loving? Lusting? Liminal? How about Limited?

I watched the "Conversation" videos, from 1 through to 12. Then became bored. Does this mean I fail the test? Ah - but would it matter so very much? After all, the Female is venerated only inasmuch as she is able by virtue of her youth and beauty to represent the Goddesss. So that means I am probably quite safe. Shame in a way, that cave looked rather funky.

May I offer some advice? Using N.L.P. alongside written video footage is a clever trick, but not everyone is naive. Another tip - watch out for boredom threshholds. Especially here.

I don't see how natural maternal instincts represent "masculine behaviour." And, using your own example, the "mother" is not the aggressor; she is merely reacting to a perceived threat from "other," a threat that wouldn't exist in a world that truly reflected the divine.

Nevertheless, a woman can indeed be "aggressive," and this aggression is ultimately a product of fear, which - getting back to my original point - is a consequence of living as an egoic system in a manipulated reality. It's not authentic and it's not of the Source, to which "other" is merely an illusion.

http://thevalley.ukpagan.com/http://thevalley.ukpagan.com/index.php?showtopic=22850&hl=

Keep up Taz!

I got bored waaaay before convo 12 - but then that's me all over

I can't get my head around this at all. IME there's a whole spectrum of sexuality and gender in humankind. I am a very masculine woman and Mr S is a feminine man. In this we complement each other and it enhances our relationship. But I don't take bugs out of the house, wear fatigues and do carpentry as

I do it because that that's who I am and it benefits my family. Similarly my husband does present wrapping, flower arranging and more than his fair share of childcare.

And what of gay, bisexual and transgendered people ? Where do they fit into this system ?

I find this quite offensive


I would be more inclined to see the ultimate universal as hermaphrodite - a perfectly balanced force from which all shades of masculinity and femininity can emanate freely. I think it's only humankind who evolve archetypes in an attempt to describe their particular state. Thus we have warriors, teachers, magical beings and bringers of fertility that are both masculine and feminine in various pantheons. Personally I don't really include any Goddesses in my day to day faith, as I feel more affinity with the masculine - where does that put me? Sorry but I think this is really limiting and a bit daft

In your opinion. However many, myself included, would disagree with that and not all pagan belief systems have a such a view point. Some, again myself included, believe in many gods and goddesses - who are equal in standing, even if we venerate some above others for personal reasons. Are the gods and goddesses of different pantheons just a reflection of the Goddess? Personally I don't believe so.



Again, this is your opinion and if it works for you - great. However it is not a view I subscribe to . It seems to me to be a rather naive explanation as to why romance and love exist, which in fact has a highly complex evolutionary and biological background stretching back over a million years for modern man and further for the other extinct branches of apes.



Who is doing the spinning and manipulations? All of us are - we spin and manupilate the information we receive through our senses to build up a picture of the world about us. You yourself and manipulating data from the natural biological systems and building up a picture that suits your mind-set. We all do this. However, one thing I feel we all have to bear in mind is no matter how much we believe our own personal experiences and how real the seem to us we have to be open to the possibility that they are wrong.

A woman who understood that it was she herself who looked out through the eyes of man (upon herself), would feel profound love for the man and treat him accordingly. So, yes, it's close to an equal relationship. It falls short of worship, however, from the woman's persepctive, because man is the creation and she is the source of the masculine, both spiritually and physically.

No, fear is the product of our inherent evolutionary background. Fear was, and still is, a useful survival trait which was necessary for the continuing survival of the family and extended tribe. All animals have this function built in. It is authentic and without it there would be no life on this planet. I'm afraid there has never been a "Golden Age" when all animals (man included) lived in harmony on this planet - nature does not work like that. It would be nice if it could be like that but life is a competition for resources and survival.

All reality is manipulated by our own brains. What we see as reality is unique to ourselves and is only the brains interpretation of information.

If "luck" means being permitted to express his love physically, then maybe so. However, it's the feminine who loves and worships herself THROUGH the masculine, so it is equally "her luck." She is merely giving herself permission to love herself through the males who appeal to her the most.

I have no idea what this refers to. Please explain!

Out of interest what does VLF stand for? Apart from Very Low Frequency I have no idea what this might be. Unless they are your initials.

Tch Tch Tch!
As i said above I'm confused. Is this VLF something you have invented to accomodate your ideas or is it something which already exists which you are a member of? And what does VLF actually stand for? It is normally considered polite to answer question regarding your own topic.

Fear is authentic to this reality, not to the Source. However, it has turned into a monster of unnatural proportions due to the manipulation that's going on, which is a reflection of our own collective ego. The Theory of Evolution itself is a part of that manipulation.

N.L.P. = Neuro Linguistic Programming. (Please note, there are no "secret" letters.)

"In general, NLP aims to increase behavioral and emotional flexibility and integration by instruction in using language, imagination, and the body in novel ways either by a practitioner/trainer, or by self-application."

And for a clearer idiot's guide, the full Wikipedia entry,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurolinguistic_programming

And more specifically, from the same entry,

"When communicating with someone, rather than just listening to and responding to what a person said, NLP aims to also respond to the structure of verbal communication and non-verbal cues.[12]

Certain language patterns such as the meta model of NLP can help clarify what has been left out or distorted in verbal communication, to specify thinking and outcomes, reframe problem ways of thinking, and set clearly defined achievable goals. In contrast, the Milton model language patterns are intentionally vague and metaphoric to allow the listener to actively engage their own imagination and inner creative processes to find their own solutions for problems.[13]

The actual state someone is in when setting a goal or choosing a course of action is also considered important. A number of techniques in NLP aim to enhance states by anchoring resourceful states associated with personal experience or model states by imitating others.[14] "

Thus aural and visual responses can be rather cutely integrated to attain a desired outcome, as in the response of any person engaged with them simultaneously, as in one of the "Conversation" videos.

Sorry, I was answering other comments. VLF (Veneration of the Living Feminine) is merely giving a name to something that I was involved with some years ago, but have neglected. It arose out of intuition, astral travel, and what I believe to be channeled information.

Ah - so the "L" stands for "Living" - thanks, I must have missed that when watching the vodeos.

Does this then mean that one should not venerate the Goddesses of old as they are dead?

If so, please try and keep your ideas well away from the Morrigan and Andraste!

Clearly this is not for me I will leave it to you hetro boys and girls to see if he's prepared to discuss his beleif or just preach at you.

Personally it sounds like a twisted form of the 101 books on wicca you see in waterstones and a desire to prove that your not having sex just for the physical fun of it but for a higher reason.

oh and the youtube things suck btw the silly electro voice had be turning it off in a record 10 seconds.

I hadnt realised there were 12 vids! Groan! 5 was more than enough for me!
The funky cave (lite up light passage) someone mentioned was a Cornish Tin Mine, probably Geevor.
In answer to your original question 'would VLF be considered Pagan or not?'
I guess as it worships the Goddess, it 'could' be classed as Pagan by some, but not by me personally, it sounds far more New Age philosophy to me!
I know some may argue that many Pagan Traditions are New Age too, but personally Ive always felt a big gap between the two.
Anyway bored now so Im off!

Yes, seeing the Ultimate as a perfect balance of male and female energies is quite understandable. And it's true to say that the masculine is of the Source, yet nevertheless a creation of the Source, giving rise to the illusion of duality. Even the most beautiful woman can be distorted with a simple lens. In a similar way, the masculine is an exagerration, through which the Source can be in relationship with itself (through us).

"Woman is the radiance of God, she is not your beloved. She is the Creator — you could say that she is not created." - Rumi

"All qualities are feminine." - Osho

Actually there are 15.

That which never existed cannot truly die. Why worship fictional characters when the Spirit of the Goddess herself walks among us as form?

As with everything, it will either resonate with you, or it won't.

Well, dear old Gerald may have died, but his spirit I am sure lingers on, alive, well, and kicking ass!

Why worship anything? Ah! I forgot - that great imperative which has driven humanity since time immemorial - nookie!

I suggest you keep at it producing those videos though - there could even be a degree in Media in the offing!

Because there are some who Belive that The Goddess takes on many aspects, Morrigan, Kali, Venus, Freya, Bridgit, Mamma Ezrule ect

Can you answer me a Question VLF?
How does the VLF system correspond with the Tree of Life?
How can The Source which be attributed a Gender? Maybe i'm missing something?
Where did VLF come from, by this I mean can you point me towards some more then your Facebook, My Google Fu has drawn a blank so far?

So you claim that all other gods and goddesses are pure fiction and your Great Goddess is the only true deity/spirit/whatever. Highly offensive remarks there as many here do believe in the individual existence of the gods - and not as some abstract personification of nature or a mere aspect of a greater being but as individual beings in their own right. And many would claim the Great Goddess is pure fiction invented by the likes of Margaret Murray.

I agree with CornishShaman - sounds too much New Age stuff.

What manipulation? Who is doing this so-called manipulation? To be frank the only manipulation I see is your own to twist the world to fit your own world-view. Well, that's fine because as I say we all do that - every single person on the planet. It's perfectly natural.

But I would like to know who you think is doing the manipulating? And if it is ourselves then, as I mentioned, it is a perfectly natural to all humans throughout history. Unless you think some outside source is manipulating us. In which case what is that outside source - a devil like figure? Some form of energy? What?

Actually Wulfric, I suspect it's yet another super dooper secretive Path to enlightenment. Just picture it:

gullible and nubile young lass goes to cave with her fella to meet lots of other fells - all of whom have knowledge of means by which she can attain knowledge of her universal spirituality. Even better, by becoming initiated (presumably after she has sat on the throne?) she attains a state of Goddessliness.

But to do this, she has to remember to subgugate her ego.
To whom, it hasn't been made terribly clear, but hey - call me a pedant! I can handle it. After all, I can also handle the fact that as an older woman, I have become less like the Goddess/verification of the Living Feminine...

Erm, anyone for a spot of orgiastic fumbling in a dark and dank (womblike huh) cave? With a bunch of enlightened chaps who have initiated other living Goddesses? Bring it on suckers! The world's full of daft young women only to eager to find the way to true enlightenment. And better to find it whilst you are young and fit enough to enjoy it!

Durgha eat your heart out!

In terms of name and structure, I myself gave VLF to the world very recently, hence the crappy videos and the lack of an official website. In terms of what it represents, however, I believe it has always been with us in one form or another. I felt that VLF would appeal to pagans more than any other group, but I guess I should just fetch my coat and leave.

Most realise that we are all "of the Source," and that the gender dynamic is primary in our lives, as well as being the very system which allows life to continue. Why shouldn't this be a reflection of the spriritual reality? The Source is not a gender, but because we call its reflection as form "feminine," we have no option but to say that the Source is Feminine, which is just another word for Love. The masculine is a disguise that the Source uses to love herself and to give love (simultaneously), for how can there be something external to God? Of course, there can't! So the illusion of duality is necessary. We ARE the Source, and devoting our energy "outside" of the gender dynamic is what's keeping us enslaved and mere puppets in the hands of the manipulators.

You'll have to be more specific regarding the Tree of Life issue, as it means different things to different people.

Forgot to add: The Theory of Evolution is a lie then? Hmm, sounds like you fear science and what it would reveal about your own beliefs. Are you advocating some sort of Intelligent Design or are you a Creationist?

It sounds to me like you've made up a theory that sounds nice and then twisted everything else and shoehorned it in to make it fit. I'd love to see you tell Cernunnos that he's really feminine.

This demonstrates the extent to which we've been conditioned and how readily we'll adopt the value system of the culture/society in which we live. Sex is primary; nakedness is natural; form is temporary; flowers wilt.

Still, worship is beyond sex. It is both symbolic (in terms of ritual) and seeks to serve and honour those in whom the divine feminine is blooming, taking both character and physical beauty (which is also in the eye of the beholder) into consideration. Giving such value to feminine qualities (love) will manifest as the emergence of a world built upon and sustained by love, of which sex is but one expression.

Actually, science is finally beginning to reveal the truth... That matter does not really exist and that we're living in some sort of giant hologram; that consciousness creates reality.

Evolution, creation, intelligent design... these are all distractions to keep us from the truth; the truth that WE are the creators of reality, because behind the masks and the illusion, we are the Source.

Whatever the reality concerning "spiritual beings," they too are ultimately of the Source, which is love, which is "feminine," which manifests here as egoic woman with the potential to reflect the Source into this reality. An "ordinary" woman has the potential to be "superior" to any "role" that is played out in the heavens, if only briefly. For when she is beyond conditioned roles, she is one with the Source. To then give her power away to those playing the roles of gods and godesses should be unthinkable, yet it happens.

NO!
Its a product of living in the natural world and the human animal is no different to any other when it comes to VERY aggressively protecting its young.

This is not a part of some "egoic system" this is a part of nature and as such a part of the gods/esses themselves !

Wrong again. No woman who has learnt to love herself needs "permission" to do anything.

The physical act of a woman TO a man is not a way of affirming herself but an act of love from her TO the male.

So basically you have invented a 'religion' and are hunting for converts. Am i right?
I ask because it all seems a bit flappy to me but that might just be because you haven't though it all through yet. It's hard enough to design the lay out of a kitchen let alone a whole new belief system. Or it might be that i'm missing the obvious. But on a tangible level what does this worship of the female entail? Sex? Can my grandmother be a part of it and worshipped too?

I'm talking about the bigger picture. The original statement implied that the hypothetical man was trying to "get lucky" (sexually) with the woman. However, the man is but a mask that was created by the divine feminine for this very purpose (love and the sexual expression of love).

As a human being she should obviously love herself. But this is not what I'm talking about. The Source was not content to merely love itself in isolation, which is why it created the masculine. Beyond the illusion, the love between a man and a woman is essentially self-love; and sex between a man and a woman is essentially masturbation (because separation is an illusion).

According to your beliefs, which not everyone shares. I for one do not believe there is a Source, beyond the universe (or multiverse) itself from which everything stems - i.e. different forms of energy (of which we are one) operating at different wavelengths.

Who are playing the roles of the gods?