Thought that this might be an interesting debate.

I consider myself a natural witch, I have have the ability since a child who saw spirit, knew things instinctually and could make things happen by thought alone.

I came across this article

http://aolsearch.aol.co.uk/aol/redir?src=w...tion=WebResults

OOOOoooops pressed the wrong the button and posted before was finished!

Any way what are others thoughts on the subject, would be interest to know what your opinions are.

in my opinion i dont think people are born witches. people can be bore into a family tradition but not have any specific abilities. i do however believe that there are people who are born with abilities and talents that can be considered part of witchcraft but dont have to be.

but if you consider yourself a natural witch then you are. Thats all that matters surly!

Quite how I see it, but don't call me shirly.

I've yet to meet an UNnatural witch

Plenty of people have called me un-natural, but I doubt it is regarding my witchcraft.

All this 'natural born' stuff is pretty recent. In the 70s witchcraft was considered 'oogah boogah' and so very few people admitted to it. In the 90s it was all sparkly neo-paganism and Llewicca, and witchcraft was considered so last millenium. In the early noughties it was all Newage and Chakras. It is only now that 'witchcraft' is becoming an acceptable term in the US that eferyone and his dog wants to be 'natural born'.

As the article states, witchcraft is not a religion or innate ability, passed from generation to generation. It was a job, a skill, something people did on behalf of the community they lived in. Some of the gifts that would make the job easier were probably born gifts, like clairvoyance, or ESP, but the actual healing, midwifery, and potion making would have been learnt. I have never met a child who knew how to cook as soon as it came out of the womb.

When people finally realise that there is nothing glamorous about being a witch, maybe all these claims of 'natural born' will die a death (although I also blame Buffy and Charmed). Until then Ladie Pixie Moondust and Lord Stagsbreath Gloomcookie will have their day. Hopefully they will get bored with all the actual work witches do and move on.

I think a lot of the claims to have been born into the Craft are probably based in the desire to be part of something bigger and more long lasting. The history of modern witchcraft is still so over-run with mis-information and claims to histories that have no evidence that it's difficult for witches to feel that they can claim to be practicing an ancient religion.

Of course, there are plenty of witches out there who don't give a monkeys if they're doing thing the way the witches of way back when did... we're doing it the way that works for us, and therefore don't feel the need to claim some rich ancestry.

Although, that said, there is a little part of me that wishes I could claim some heritage of witchcraft so I could've learnt it all as I grew up rather than figuring it out for myself now!

Interestingly, it does seem to be the Yanks who claim hereditary status a lot more than Brits (could be a generalisation, but it's how I've seen it). Think this could have anything to do with the fact that as a country they are still very young and technically don't have that much history?

Actually this makes a LOT of sense and I hadn't thought of it that way. When I talk about witches being born I'm certainly not meaning in terms of being hereditary, but more that without a natural talent for certain things, then no amount learning will do any good.

As I have said before I think that a certain amount of "psychic" (theres that word again!) ability is part and parcel of what I do, I was still taught how to control it and what have you.

I also think that a lot of my "stuff" is instinctual because I did what I did and never once considered it witchcraft until I met others who did "stuff" too.

So whilst I think you are right, there is also a large element, that is inborn. At least in my opinion


right on sister

This is a slight tangent but its not just witches who have a bee in their bonnets about being hereditory, I've seen others following different paths who make a big deal about not being christened, as if it sets them above others. It must come as a blow to them when they realise that a child who was christened is no more a christian then a child of a postman is a member of the postal union.

But witchcraft is not and never has been an ancient religion, so why would anyone want to claim that? In fact, witchcraft went through a period of being considered vile by everyone, not just the ebul christians, so why does everyone want to be one now?


Now I can understand this, as it is normal behaviour to want to be good at something. I would say at least my daughter will be able to claim hereditary witchcraft, if it wasn't for the fact she shows no interest in it whatsoever. And maybe 99% of us wouldn't have when kids anyway. Learning instead of playing on my bike all day? No thanks.


I think we can safely lay the blame for that one on Llewellyn's doorstep.

Something I've been trying to tell my brother for years! He'll tell people he's a Christian because he was christened when we were kids. The fact our parents only did it to make sure we got into their first choice primary school seems to have gone over his head!

Yes, I would like to make it clear that I believe there are people who have hereditary skills who do become witches, but there are some who don't.

A chat with my OH has lead to an idea that making Witchcraft an ancient religion, and therefore something that has as much weight behind it as, say, Christianity or Judaism, is again something that's more important to the Yanks than to us because of how strong a hold Christianity has over the country.

Maybe this comes back to how young the USA is compared to Britain, we managed to loosen the Church's grip on the country years ago, and they're still trying to catch up.

All theory, of course. Have we got any tame Yanks on here we can put it to?

Im with WW on this one.

I cant work out how you make it a religion.

As for born and heriditory. Personally, I think you are born a witch. I agree many skills are learnt, but I've never met a witch who didnt always know they were a witch, I've never met one who just decided to be one.

Oh I have and they are the very first to point the finger at others.

Its actually quite amusing

I dunno about this either because it had to be spelled (pun intended) out to me. As I said, I just did "stuff" and I had no idea that this "stuff" could be deemed witchcraft.

I'm still not certain it is, but that particular label (tho I hate labels) is the only one which adequately explains what I am in as short a time possible.

But then I do believe there are many different types of witch also and I doubt one type is really any better than another. Different does NOT mean superior!

Nor for that matter does it mean inferior

As for a religion ............ umm no

I decided to call myself a witch. I was not born into a famous witch family, or a fam trad. I was brought up CofE and christened too. I had no thoughts on religion whatsoever until I hit adolescence. I had no psychic, telepathic, or clair-anything experiences as a child (still haven't, come to think of it), yet a few years ago I thought 'What I do is considered very like this thing that was called witchcraft. I like the idea of that'.

That is, I chose to become a witch. Some people may say I am a 'natural' (I am grumpy, ugly, and have the temper of a bull with a headache), but being naturally good at witchcraft doesn't make you a born witch.

I suppose that goes back to the "can someone practise witchcraft without being a witch" debate

I actually think this subject is fraught with misunderstandings because of what we consider "natural" or not, and it then in turns starts the whole "what IS a witch" debate again.

All I know is I certainly didnt come from a family tradition unless Anglican priests have suddenly become occultists .

But I do know that some, if not most, of the practises I employ in my craft have come from something I have never been taught.

I used to be bloody minded on this subject and believe all witches were born, but if you say you aren't a natural Witch WW, then who am I to argue.

Except I know you are a witch and I personally believe that if you didnt have an inherent "witchiness" then you wouldn't be one

I have to say I agree with all of that.

Can I ask then how you define witchcraft? and just what you think a witch is?

I think some of the confusion regarding Witchcraft arises because many opt to take words back to their original meaning e.g Religion L. religare "fasten, bind fast," from re-, intensive prefix, + ligare "to bind" (From eytmology dictionary)
So from that point of understanding, Witchcraft could indeed be classified as a religion.
The author responsible for writing the article linked in post number one actually states that it IS a religion but i was unable to find out why they thought so.
I tend to disagree with Lupines opinion regarding Christening. Christening/baptism is an initiation into the Christian religion whether we're forced into it by our parents before we're old enough to make informed choices or not, subsequently because of the words spoken over you by a priest, its a blight one has to carry until "undone" or properly renounced.

Noranti, this very question has been debated very recently here, here and here

Oooh sorry dear, really do need to get new specks! sorry again, teething trouble and getting use to forum life!

I have to agree and disagree in many respects. It has been said Witchcraft is not an Old Religion, never has been, but this is in fact untrue in many respects but it comes down to what you define as Religion rather than what you define as Witchcraft. I do not personally think Witchcraft is a religion but it is a very ancient practice. Just how much of this has survived in its original form is open to debate, but modern paganism and modern Witchcraft i.e. Wicca, Traditional Craft etc in my opinion comes nowhere near. It is comforting to believe the ancient Witches were midwives, healers etc, but my experiences have lead me to believe they were quite the opposite, being feared yet sought out, albeit secretly, for their knowledge.

I have to agree with Xalle, in that, although it is not hereditory in the sense of having to be passed through a family line, every Witch I have known has always known they were, even if they weren't able to put the label to it. They just know! If you have force it then you are not it. Arrgghhhh I'm gonna duck now from all the bombs thrown at me but I seriously have sought and sought information all my life - well pretty much - and it just isn't there. No books, Internet sites etc can afford me the path I seek. It is within me. and whilst talking to others who are interested opens channels for me sometimes (eek new age channelling coming through...stop now!) it is myself I look to for answers.

You have to ask the questions - How did Witchcraft originate? Where did it come from? Who made us this? What cultures coloured our view of Witchcraft? Who were the original peoples that claimed the title Witch? When you know this, you can start to understand what we (well those of us who wish to connect to Witchcraft) are trying to connect to.

well so I believe anyway. Perhaps I should just go and have another huge glass of wine and shut up
Aronwy X

I could not agree more. Brilliantly put.

I think if you've come through the fluff and the elitism, the "how to be a witch" and of course the "you can only be a witch if" stuff with your head still in tact and your broomstick still in one piece you can call yourself a natural witch lol.

Born a witch? born to become a witch.

Now that I like

I think I have mentioned elsewhere that I think everyone has innate ability in some form of "witchcraft"

hmmm, assuming wine drinking is "some form of witchcraft" then that includes me too

BB
TR

Who can say what we are 'born to be'? How many bodies lie beneath the sod who, while carrying a rifle, lost their 'inheritance' ? Can one then say " They were born to die young and the world bereft of what they may have offered?

Was I 'born to be' what I am? Is the being who I am 'proof' of this? For I am many things, which was I 'born to be'?

All I am left with is what I am. Who can really say more, or if they do, how many have the luxury of feeling some kind of innate unraveling of the universe 'as it was meant to be'? Who could be so egocentric as to with surety declare this power unto themselves? Alone and with no comparison, who are you?

I cannot not say, nor will I.

Who can say more than 'I am'.

"Judge no man’s life until he is dead" - Sophocles

These may seem not relevant to the question and yet to myself, say it all.

Marto

Marto,

Once again, NO-ONE is claiming superpowers or to be able to unravel the mysteries of the universe.

But what if the 'I am' includes innate talents that come under the banner of witchcraft ?

Is it really any different to saying 'I am a person with brown eyes' or 'I am a person who is impatient' or 'I am a person who liked people' ??

Its not - its just something that is there, as a part of you. SO we can stand up and say 'I am' just as easily as you can, and apart from when people pester us to define it and itemise it, we are able to do so with no ego issues.

With all respect, I do believe you read my post wrong. I was merely making an existential observation of the epistemological proposition - 'born to be'.

Surely people are robust enough to take on aboard such philosophical observations without, as you say, their 'egos' being involved?

If not, than I would humbly submit there is a fragility here I underestimated and I apologise.

Marto

This is so well said and phrased. Trying to put explanations into written word so that the explanation is received and understood is no easy task!








My husband would say that explains a lot!!

Okay, we seem to be drifting far, far away from the original topic point, can we please get back to it?

Since there is now a debate about posting styles I'll split this topic and start a new thread. I'd be grateful if all involved in this new thread could move away from the personal and try and remain polite towards each other...

These are interesting questions but I suspect the answer to the origins of witchcraft will never be known. You'll probably find it's a combination of things: experimentation, observation, intuition, and so on. Perhaps it is a natural ability - part of the surivival tool kit the evolutionary process endowed us with but as society grew and became more organised and complex a process that has waned and grown dormant since it's need lessened as social hierarchy and systems of government developed. Perhaps also the gods had an input in this - although to what degree who knows?

The problem is what is magic? What is witchcraft - and I know this has been delved into in quite some depth so apart from saying I believe it is a perfectly natural system (i.e. not supernatural) and since we are part of that natural system then it may be that we have a natural way of utilising it, I'm not going to go any further with this train of thought.

Cultures and societies colour everything we do. In years gone by it would have been mainly our own culture as there would have been little contact with other cultures except through trade or warfare. But these days we have instance access to most of the world's different cultures - although these are becoming homogenized - so we are shaped, often unknowingly, by other cultures. We are to an extent a product of our own culture and society and so our views and ways of seeing things are coloured by that - to greater or lesser degrees.

The Germanic peoples would have been the first to claim the title Witch - it is as has often been noted a Germanic word. Sorry - being a little facetious there. It's all down to how one defines what a witch is and that changes from culture to culture and from one age to another.

Medea, Circe and a few one-eyed Thessalian women want a word with you .

Otherwise, great post!

Marto

I imagine they would