do people dellude themselves into the safe catogory of paganism what is a witch lve read some rather stilted answers bur also some very informed ones too there is only one way to verify that your a witch and that is to check your ancestory my family have been witches dating back to my great great great granma my history is so facinating that when as a child l was told the stories they always made me scared then as l got older my eyes were opened to all the ways of the craft theres a few hedietary witches practising in total secrecy some quite openly and some who never know they have a calling and lm one witch(yes men are witches too) not warlocks or wizards it just the way the ignorant see men when invited to intoduce themselves as witches or pagans l love the craft l love the brothers and sisters in the craft and most of all lm pagan and proud there is also the names of pagans that have dilluted the true path theres alexandrian and gardanian after alexander and gardener who have modified the craft so as people who want to follow are gently led into it Blessed Be to the wise(wicca)anglosaxon for the path will open to them lets see now who has the answers to this poser of a topic Blessed Be Azreal

Erm, could you repost that with punctuation as I'm not sure what the post actually says.

Thanks.

Rhiannon

Hmmm, not sure about that! My ancestors are Catholic through and through and I am most definitely a Witch. I have some time for the argument of it being in the blood (I can understand the idea behind it), but none of my ancestors as far as I know were even remotely involved in witchcraft! I think you may inflame some folks with statements like that, it seems a bit rude to be honest to anyone who doesn't have a great granny tradition...
Also, small note, but the total lack of any punctuation in your posts make them really hard to get through!

Er...come again?

I am Witch, my Granny (God rest her dear good soul had sweet FA to do with it) and I do understand your post, despite its rather erratic punctuation (or lack thereof! ) <-- and NO, I am NOT being catty, or supercilious, OR wishing to appear more well read/educated at the expense of another, please take note!!! To do so would be rude, cruel, AND nasty. I am not any of those. I leave it to those better versed.

Back to your post Angel1, yes, I do believe there are safe categories and that we fit into them or seek them out simply because that is hunman nature. Doing so shouldn't make a person appear to others as being somnehow lacking in grey matter or gumption.

What a person does or follows, is up to that person. I cannot go inside your skin and tell you what is right or wrong. Nor should anyone try*. Therein lies the path to madnesss.

Followers of Christianity have only the Bible's word for how it was. Who is to say that the Bible is any more or less of a fabrication of fantasies that say, Gardiner's works? Or the Rev Sun Yung Moon's?

My personal policy has been,

"each to their own" with the addendum,

"as long as it doesn't harm the horses!"

Angel, reading between your lines, never confuse the desire to rule or to appear "in the know" with outright badness.


I do not believe that Alexander or Gardiner "modified" the true craft. To do so in the first place they would have had to have some amount of power...

For what? The Family Grimoire?

No, sorry, I can't agree that there is only one way to verify that you're a witch. You could have the ancestry and still be, to quote from Harry Potter - a squib - a person with no ability whatsoever. To put it another way, you could come from a long line of cellists and be tone deaf.

Besides, I have to say that on this site at least I think we (yes, speaking for a load of folk in all likelihood) are a bit fed up with claims that one way is the ONLY way.



Good for you



Yep. Don't have any argument with that observation.

I'd add that there are also a great number of non-hereditary witches practising in just the same way;)

Gosh!!! I never knew that!



Amen to that brother!



Ah. There we diverge. I don't believe there's any "True Path". It might be one person's True Path, but there are as many Truths as there are people.



I'm getting a sense of deja vu. Blessed are the meek/peacemakers etc. No-one comes to The Father except through me... etc etc.

Sorry. It's a bit dictatorial and dogmatic for my liking.




And, um, who will "mark" the answers? You, I suppose? On what, or whose, authority?



Quite so.

Ow, my eyes! Somebody has an infected punctuation gland!

Personally, I am not a Wiccan and find a lot of it doesn't fit into my worldview, so I'd naturally say 'no, it isn't'. No organised religion ever has been the 'true path' or ever will.

Sometimes, I am glad I have experience of working with kids with another language. It helps. Lots.

I rather enjoy enthusiasm, and look forward to reading more responses to Angel's post.

HHMMMM.....An Hereditary Witch, who thinks we still call male Witches, Wizards and Warlocks and uses fluffy Wiccan 'Blessed Be' terms!
Im glad you can trace your lineage back so far, but could it be that Hereditary Skills may miss Generations, like Hereditary Illness's?

Im sure there are now lots of Hereditary Gardnerians and Alexandrians, etc, too!

Ach. Weel. Thereby hings a threid. Etcetera.

Should I start reinforcing the sandbags that surround the statutory sanctuary of the sofa? Should I hole up?


I only ask because I fear the onslaught of more nonsense... ( <-- don't worry, I'm only being me.)

'The true path' ? Funny, I escaped a religion that claimed exactly the same thing-Christianity. Don't like this assumption that there is only 'one way'. Far too dogmatic for me and frankly, something I'm sick of hearing.

Och good Christ Flaxen! ALLAH is the one true God!!! Don't you EVER read the news?

( )

Oh- so THAT'S where I've been going wrong! Calling him by the wrong name! Still, never mind 'all gods are one God' so it makes no difference really

Wicca is A path, and whether it is your true path only you can tell, but it's not for me.

Sorry Tas call me nasty but I think its rude to start a thread without a thought about wether its readable. a full stop is not beyond anyone who can type a url.

and I also don't think its polite in your first dozen posts to slag off differnet path to the one your on.

My view on this is that a path is only true for the person on it at the time, I am not a wiccan its not my place to say weather its a "true" path or not. As far as I can see it is just as true as any other path.

OK angel1, I'll bite.

Who says that Wicca (or wicca for that matter) is the 'True Path' and the 'True Path' to what? Witchcraft?
Even as a non-witch (or Witch) I don't call male witches wizzards (sorry, got all Pratchett there) or warlocks.
Anyone who's even lightly looked into this knows that warlock means oath breaker and a wizard is a different creature altogether.
Only the uninformed, wannabes, Fluffy (sorry Buffy) a Charmed fans call them that.

Funny that you use the Blessed Be salutation, the other family lineaged witches I know use Merry Meet, Merry Part and Merry Meet Again along with Bright Blessings.
Maybe it's a family thing.

No need to apologise to me mate! I couldn't agree more - however, I have screwed on my beneficient head this afternoon, but only as an alternative to going on the rampage, ripping off sundry limbs, and battering the thus disencumbered eedjits with the soggy ends.

That said, maybe our OP shall respond, with or without punctuation, and share their thougts and views further, apropos the replies...

Bless!

OK, I'll bite in a little more depth.

[quote=angel1,Jul 29 2008, 03:30 PM]
do people dellude themselves into the safe catogory of paganism what is a witch
[/quote]

Witches and pagans are not necessarily the same thing. Most witches might be pagans, but it's not possible to say most pagans are witches, with any certainty. But one may certainly say, with confidence, that not all pagans are witches.

[quote]
there is only one way to verify that your a witch and that is to check your ancestory
[/quote]

No. there are very many witches with no family history of witchcraft.

[quote]
my family have been witches dating back to my great great great granma
[/quote]

That's nice. Did your great great great grandma tell you? I'm guessing you're, what - about sixteen (judging by the spelling)? So your grandma would be in her sixties? And your g-g-g grandma would have lived around the late nineteenth century? If you have any written evidence of an unbroken family history of witchcraft Professor Ronald Hutton would probably love to hear from you.

[quote]
as l got older my eyes were opened to all the ways of the craft
[/quote]

the craft? There is no one craft - there are many. nearly as many as there are witches.

[quote]
(yes men are witches too) not warlocks or wizards
[/quote]

I doubt there's many pagans unaware of this. Have you ever spoken to any pagans before joining this forum? You may be surprised to find a lot of the information you're giving is either well known or else people will disagree with it from an informed viewpoint.

[quote]
it just the way the ignorant see men when invited to intoduce themselves as witches or pagans
[/quote]

See the bit about pagans and witches above. Do all hereditary witches identify as pagans? I had the impression from somewhere that some don't.

[quote]
most of all lm pagan and proud
[/quote]

When did your family cease to be Christians and call themselves pagans? I admit I'd be surprised if it was in your g-g-g-grandma's time. What does 'pagan' mean to your family? is it just being a witch? If so, what made your family stop being Christian witches and become pagan ones?

[quote]
and there is also the names of pagans that have dilluted the true path
[/quote]

Ah, but - as others have said - there is no one true paths among paganisms. Thereby lies the road to delusion and arrogance.

[quote]
theres alexandrian and gardanian after alexander and gardener who have modified the craft so as people who want to follow are gently led into it
[/quote]

There are also grave doubts as to whether either Gardner or Sanders had ever been in contact with any hereditary witch prior to Gardner creating Wicca.

[quote]
Blessed Be
[/quote]

Is surely either a Wiccan or a Christian phrase?

[quote]
to the wise(wicca)anglosaxon
[/quote]

The Anglo Saxon means (male) witch, not wise. Though it may be a corruption of the AS word witega, which means prophet or seer. But did your family speak Anglo Saxon, then? I admit I would have assumed any hereditary tradition would use the form of English contemporary to their own times.

[quote]
for the path will open to them lets see now who has the answers to this poser of a topic
[/quote]

You may not mean it this way, but we've had a lot of people who have passed through this forum claiming to know more than others, and that the wise ones will recognise their words for what they are etc. Regretfully, it comes across as self satisfied mumbo jumbo designed to lure people into recognising how important the poster is.

[quote]
Blessed Be
[/quote]

As a greeting/farewill, surely this was invented by Gardner? Or, if he was telling the truth, confined to a group of witches in one particular part of the country. Would you be willing to tell us how your family came to use it?

[quote]
Azreal

[/quote]

Does your family have a cult of angels (given your forum ID and the name you have used here? Could you tell us more about that? What significance does 'Azreal' have for you? Does that spelling have any particular significance, rather than the original (Hebrew) spelling: Azrael?

Sorry, but men ARE wizards. Look at Harry Potter. Are you telling me Harry Potter's a witch?

But actually I don't mind the lack of punctuation in this instance, it's rather charming. If I may use the word. It's a literary style called Stream of Consciousness, isn't it? With a noble lineage. Look at James Joyce.

Blimey, what AM I going on about. Hit me, go on, hit me.

in his intro he says he is 50 with several grown up kids.

PLeeeeeze let's not start picking on people for the way that they write,spelling or lack of punctuation! It's not that difficult to understand the original post!

Let's not forget this is the first week of the school holidays.

Well I've been pretty safely assured that one can be a Pagan and/or Witch alone or as part of a group. That's what really appeals to me about both Paganism and Witchcraft.

If I find out now that I have to join another "true path" I'm going to be a bit pee'd off.

Somehow, I doubt that's the case though.

From what I have read, if I remember rightly, it wasn't until after Margaret Murray's book "The Witch Cult in Western Eurpoe" published in the early 1920's that anyone even considered the possibility that there could be branches of witches or wiccans with an unbroken lineage back to pre-christian times. Unfortunately Murray's theory was disproved, so there is currently no research to support the existence of hereditary witchcraft existing back more than a few generations other than in terms of folk customs and fam-trad.....

So surely even angel1's heritage of witchcraft is fairly brief as religious traditions go...

Personally I come from a family of christians and don't consider myself any less pagan because of it.....

Angel1, I'm a newbie myself and try to stay away from the controversial issues, the blasting you have got from this post will maybe warn you off for future reference. Everyone here is pretty open minded to other's views, but they expect that courtesy to be returned....

I am an initiated wiccan, descended from a family of devout Roman Catholics... by the definition of the original post, this means I am not a 'true witch' however, so should I just pack up my bat and ball and go home?

My wiccan path, is my path and it is right for me - it is not the 'one true path', not everyone wants to be wiccan and why should they? It is no better or worse than anyone elses path, and I personally don't know any initiated wiccans who would ever say otherwise.

Not worth answering much further, such illusion and nonsense either descends to fixated madness or dries up in the light and blows away. Sorry Angel1, it is fortunate for you that you are nothing that you think you are, or you would go totally insane in a few exposures to magickal realities. 'Azreal' will not accept you except as food.

Seems to me that you have possibly had one or two minor moments of awakening and have tripped out on them. Hopefully you will come back down to earth and not crash or get burnt on the way. Then you may build on the original connection, if it is still there, and find what you are. But it isn't witch by a long way. Good luck.

I find it very funny when people call me a Wizard (conjures images of unseen university!) I get a little ruffled when called a Warlock (negative conotations abound) and as for Magician I have never performed "tricks" on stage or otherwise, if you want someone to do tricks buy a dog

I have been considering the whole Witch thing in light of the many many many many (you get the idea) threads that have been posted here... The more consideration I give it the less inclined I am to say "I am a Witch".

Thats not because I dont fit into various peoples views of what that is. Its more that Im eternally tired of all the grief which usually follows the statement. Not just here but in life generally.

I walk a path that no one else can, because no one else can be me. Its not The path, its my path. Its not wrong or right it just is. I practice magic. I utilise magic, but I am not a Witch, atleast not in the sense that YOU (aimed at anyone using the word) mean Witch.

Just as a throw away point, I never liked Blessed Be etc either, I have always preferred the merry meet, merry part, merry meet again.

My reply wasn't criticism, it was just a note to the OP that a bit of punctuation would help those of us who DO have trouble reading these posts. It's not picking on someone to point out that I find it really difficult (it may just be me!) to read an entire long paragraph with no punctuation at all! So, apologies if anyone was offended, but it was just a heads up to the OP!!

MOD HAT ON

Like it or not, this is a reading forum. Punctuation is a must. I had to read the post myself several times before it made sense to me. No-one is having a go they are expressing a wish to be able to understand the post. Considering how many misunderstandings there can be when capital letters, full stops and decent punctuation is used, it's not an unreasonable request.

However, I am sure that Angel has now noted this and will in furture try and comply. So lets just move on with the debate.

Thanks folks.

Im with you Ethereal! Im just me, being me, practising 'me - ism', the rest is just lables! though i prefer 'Hi' or 'Hello' to all the Merry, Blessed, stuff!

Having reread the OP it seems a question was being asked - "What is a Witch"? Hmmm.

Here we all go again, someone shove Hammy off the wheel - I want a shot!

However, I may have misinterpreted, and it could be simply Angel1's way of sharing his joy at having found what he considers to be his one true Path - and if so, then that's nice.

I am all for folks being happy in what they do - just so long as they don't proselytise too much!

I disagree. It read to me more like 'I am a witch because I have been a member of teh aynshunt Wikka relijun for years n years, and the rest of you aint.'

I may be being uncharitable, however.

That's how I read it too

Me three.

Hmm. Here goes - dons teacher head again, despite it being the holidays...

"do people dellude themselves into the safe catogory of paganism what is a witch lve read some rather stilted answers bur also some very informed ones too there is only one way to verify that your a witch and that is to check your ancestory my family have been witches dating back to my great great great granma " (OP, minus punctuation.)

& the edited version,

"Do people delude themselves into the safe catogory of Paganism?
What is a Witch?"
l've read some rather stilted answers, but also some very informed ones too.

There is only one way to verify that you're a Witch, and that is to check your ancestry. My family have been Witches dating back to my great, great, great granma." (Etcetera.)

It seems to me that Angel has indeed asked "What is a Witch?".

I'll do the rest if anyone wants - it's good practice!

Yes but the question was rhetorical because he answered it himself with the sentence "There is only one way to verify that you're a Witch, and that is to check your ancestry"

Maybe. However, when someone asks a question it is usual for the question to be the main part of the post, not the tons of boasting surrounding it.


What is delusional about calling oneself a pagan? Some people are just that - pagans.


As countless people have stated above, this is not true. Making absolute statements about these paths is disingenuous at best and disrespectful at worst.


Boasting. And unlikely.


The lack of punctuation makes this possibly a two-edged sentence but this is how I read it: that Alexandrian and Gardnerian Wicca are the diluted version of the OPs 'real' wicca. No, they aren't. It is disrespectful to suggest that, and again, it is wrong. Wicca (as in the actual name of the path) did not exist pre-Gardner, whatever people claim now.


This comes across as arrogant to me. It's not really a poser is it? More of a ramble about what Angel1 believes.

I have seen many posts like this on many forums and message boards, and each time it is written by someone who has just read a Kate West or $RW book and thinks 'that's how I feel! I must be descended from the True Witchy Way!' As I said, I may be being uncharitable, but I bet I aren't.

Sometimes I almost regret not doing rhetorical! ( )

IMO, if someone is happy living their dream, who am I to disagree? The whole Granny bit is laughable, yes - but it's also so hackneyed as to be not worth bothering with.

People who are opinionated come and go - some stay, some trundle away into the sparkly mists of Pink Unicorn Land. I wish them all safe journey. In fact, I'll even go so far as to chuck in a couple of those Blessed Be thingies. Cos I'm nice.

I promised myself i'd stay off this thread being totally fed up with the whole bleedin' question but this seems very much like a challenge to me rather than arrogance (but that too).
Riddle me ree!!

Awww come on everyone "does" rhetorical even if its just to say "Why me, God" or to to their other half, "have you always been this difficult" LOL

Yes.

(Erm - that wasn't another rhetorical question was it?! )

OK then, if as Tas says the question being asked is 'what is a witch' then there isn't any 1 answer (as we've seen on here!!). What it isn't limited to though is a person who has the ancestry to prove it. I have no ancestry I know of to prove a link through the ages and I know what I am. I still feel the initial post excludes all who cannot claim granny (or great great great etc) connections.

I think the what is a witch question has been posed on here so many times and we have had a thousand answers, showing the great diversity in Witchcraft today. It is highly personal, and individualistic, and cannot be summed up quite so easily. I think that some would be offended by the exclusive nature of the OP's declarations on Witchcraft (and they were declarations rather than questions I think), and am surprised that Angel 1 hasn't replied at all to the many replies he's recieved. Open a can of worms then run and hide? Strange... Because if I (and it appears many others) have mis-read the original post, then it would help if Angel 1 clarified in some way. It seems only fair, if we are reading it wrong, not to enlighten us. Or if we are reading right, then to just post a long treatise and then not engage in further discussion is pointless.

I agree.

We can only post according to our interpretation of what is being asked/proposed, but frankly, until Angel returns to clarify the points we've raised, further speculation by us is really just a waste of typing and brain power.

I have two thoughts about this thread: one, that either Angel is just asking and posting according to his viewpoint, or two, that he's intending to start an argument in a vaccuum - and given that we're all willing to debate what we *think* he meant, he's managed that latter rather well...

Angel, until you come back and respond to the thread, I'm inclined to believe it's the latter and so I'll just leave this thread be and concentrate on ones where the original poster participates in the thread too

give im a chance, its only been a day!

um...here's my weebly response.

The truth of something is, imo, heavily influenced by our own perceptions and beliefs and what we 'know'.

A 'true' path is likely to be different for most people, in the sense of having a religious belief.

But there seems to be two paths that people may tread, their personal life path (that we are 'on' and may include all sorts of different things like our emotional growth in life, our experiences and choices etc etc) and our chosen path in a religious sense, which may or may not be an organised/semi-organised/unorganised path.

For my point of view, there isn't a religious path which is less or more valid than another (with the exception of practices that are set up as a religion but is a mask for something more sinister eg child porn ring). my reason for this is that perceptions and meaning, knowing (or not knowing) take presidence over organised paths because I believe that I am more 'true' to myself (rightly or wrongly).

With regard to the witch thing....um...that's a tricky one...the more I mingle with those who regard themselves as witch and I observe their 'ability' or hear their discussions about the kinds of things that occur, my intuitions nudges me into thinking that it is some kind of ability that is akin to psychic ability (but of course there are differences - possibly, not sure about that though).

If being 'witch' is similar to psychic ability then there has to be some biological basis for this ability. Whether its heredity or not, I don't know. But I think that it is likely that there will be at least something bound up with the genetics of it all. It would give a strong survival advantage. I think that environment will help or hinder this ability to develop.

Regards fizz.

I tend to view my life path (mundane stuff, work etc) as a reflection of my Spiritual Path (which includes my emotional growth and as close as I get to a religious path).
As for the 'Witchy' abilities thing, I dont see a lot of difference between a Tao ist practicing Meditation and a Pagan practising some form of Meditation.
The biggest difference seems to be more to do with what we call our Deities and how we perceive, they want to be addressed, eg Prayer or Spells, etc.
I also dont tend to view these Psychic type abilities as an 'evolutionary step', but more as an 'evolutionary throw back' to our distant past when our senses were everything when it came to survival.

Yes I agree with the above. I had become a 'witch' in heart, mind and path before ever I came upon a Wiccan book or internet site. At first I was excited to have found all these wonderful books and took much of their wisdom into myself. However there came a time when I came across other 'witches' who said I could never call myself 'witch' because -- I hadn't studied for degrees, I hadn't been initiated, I had no witchcraft in my family, I was too fluffy, I didn't know what I was doing etc etc......

All of this may be true to some extent. However the path I walk took me many years to find. I did not come to it without wisdom or study. In the later years of my life I have found peace and meaning and a beauty around me that I had never known. It doesn't matter to me now what people think about me or my path or my rituals or workings. I am my own Witch and it is valid to me and that is all that matters now.
I still hold to the Wiccan guidelines because I believe they are wise. I have learned much from Wicca but I am not bound by it and have no desire to be accepted into the fold. I thank Wicca for what it taught me and gave to me but it is not who I am. I respect you all and all of your views but they are yours not mine.

There is a place in 'Paganism' for us all. I thought that diversity was what it was all about. There is no right way or wrong way. Just 'The Way'.

Here! Here! Good for you kitchen witch, you have your own beliefs and hold them true and never let any one say you are doing things right or wrong! You have found your path and walk it well! In my younger days I took too much notice of so called Craft Elders who mixed my head and craft up, because I wasn't doing it there way, It has taken me years to untangle the threads of damage these people did and I am slowly getting some true clarity on my own true path.

Bright blessings x