Following on from the thread on Mundane Topics and Religion, and the comments that were made about science reminded me of one of my favourite Cult Classic series, Terry Nation's Survivors.

http://www.televisionheaven.co.uk/survivors.htm

SURVIVORS

Inspiration for Survivors came, according to series creator Terry Nation, from the realisation that he -in fact everyone in modern society, had become totally reliant on technology. "I was aware of how little I knew." He said in a 1992 interview. "If I had to make an axe I wouldn't know how take the ore from the ground, turn it into iron and make an axe head. So in a way I, who live in an era where we've landed men on the Moon, am actually more primitive than stone-age man."

This was the inspiration for his 1975 series in which a virus had wiped out 95 per cent of the world's population in just a few weeks, leaving the remaining 5 per cent to stay alive in a world devoid of the most basic things we take for granted -electricity, transport, medicine for example, and the few survivors of the human race are forced to fall back on the most primitive skills in order to live and re-establish some semblance of law and order.

This idea of how much we are in fact dependant on technology that most of us are completely incapable of replicating was something which captured my 12 year old imagination when the series was first aired, and still does. And as time goes on, the gulf between dependance and understanding grows ever wider. If the doom-mongers are to believed, the kind of scenario Nation envisaged is becoming likelier all the time. Many pagans and eco-warriors advocate going back to nature, eshewing technology and re-learning forgotten skills as the only sane course of action open to us. And at times I do agree, although it must be said without doing to much about it.

So, what do you think? Could you cope, if you had to? Should we be preparing for life in a post-apocalyptic society, just in case; or should we beat the rush and join a commune?

I love that series, have all three on DVD and watch it regularly.

Could I cope? good question and one that I wouldn't really be able to answer until it happens. I do have provisions for a short term disruption to supplies. I think I can last about three weeks reasonably comfortably food wise, my water supply is a little low at present but that's because I used some that was getting close to it's date and have yet to replace it. Hygiene supplies I have stocks to last much longer than that.

Practical skills I have very little knowledge really, in that way I am much as Nation said of himself, more primitive than stone-age man, I may be able to knock something together, but again I really don't know until I am faced with it.

I am however in the process of reading up on a few things which would come in useful, such as soap making, woodwork, and that kind of thing. to begin with we would be able to survive (at least for a while) on the surplus stuff which would be around, but we would need to re learn all the skills we take for granted in order to survive longer than a generation or so.

I remember watching this as well, many moons ago!

Could I survive? I don't know. I have skills that I could use that were learnt in the army, but that was a while back and I'll have forgotten quite a bit of it. I can probably still shoot straight, and can probably still use a crossbow so I could hunt for food.
People would have to move away from towns and cities for a while because of the health risks from bodies, etc; but I'd be able to knock up a shelter in the woods, or use a linesman's hut etc. By trade I'm a mechanic so I should be able to keep a generator or water-pump going, as long as I can find fuel.
The problem is that without medication I would quickly grind to a halt as things seized up, so my survival would depend on being the first into the local chemist to raid their stash of Voltarol and paracetemol

I've just looked for my copy of Day of The Triffids, can't find it. I'd reccomend it to anyone who ponders the end/rebuilding of Civilisation.
Theres a point in the book where the central characters argue agaisnt the ever fractioning attitude of the survivoers. And it goes a little something like this.
"A community of less than 12 will degenerate into clods within a generation, There needs to be a basic amout of people to farm the land, Also needed are Teachers and Doctors, the community must be able to support those who do not farm the land."

Well... fat and waddly (is that a word?) as I am. I'm pretty sure I would survive. Only because I'd be so damned determined to! I dont wanna die just yet. I know how to fish using baskets (something I learned in Borneo as a kid) I know how to make a basket too. I also know how to snare.

Im fairly sure I could fashion some flint tools and Im also pretty sure that eventually given much sweat, tears, blisters and a whole new form of swearing I could light a fire!

Im not squeemish, so although I never have, I could gut an animal, and Im fairly sure I could kill one too. Building shelter might be a bit of a problem. Never had to do anything like that before, but bugger me, where there's a will theres a way!

I (sorry we.. me and him) have a survival pack, supplies arent something we keep. And I think the most important thing in it is the flint match!

I've never seen the programme, sounds interesting tho!

When you are really determined, when you dont have a choice, when you HAVE to survive, provided you arent in the middle of a desert or arctic tundra (in other words, somewhere you arent used to) bloody mindedness comes into it!

I might be living on berries and grass and soup for the first few weeks till I work out how to kill some of the furry buggers... but I'd get there.

I actually think there's so much stuff in the world now, as long as the population fell drastically there would be enough resources to draw on for a few generations. You'd never have to make clothes or shoes or cooking pots, and you could certainly find tents to carry off with you. I guess a 4x4 would make quite a nice little house. And as long as books were still usable, you would have access to the knowledge needed to rebuild your infrastructure.

It would be food production that would suffer most from the loss of infrastructure. I think if I needed to, I would certainly find a way to kill wild things to eat in the interim.

Interim between what, though?

I would not be able to defend myself against any but the weakest of opponents.

Co-operation between humans depends entirely on being brought up within a culture and having consensus about behaviour. I don't think any fiction has been written which realistically explores the repercussions from having lots of people, not enough food and no rules.

Day of the Triffids - there was fighting in that, I seem to remember, but rebuilding a society? How would you actually achieve that, with constant raiding and pillaging going on?

Incidentally, if you lived in somewhere like Somalia, would a crisis of any kind make a lot of difference to you?

It is not just the physical ability to survive, the weediest looking types may surprise you, it is the will and the guts that count. I could survive well enough, I have taught myself the skills and practised them over decades.

There is no second-guessing or negotiation, you have to deal with immediate realities and threats and be willing to kill to defend youself and yours, aye and make mistakes too. You need to be able to plan ahead and strategise (if that is a word) through more than a seasonal cycle.

As Xalle said, a flint match or equivalent is number one, after clothing and a good blade. Then tools. But the small things like needles, string, containers are what you need to think about.

You will need more than anything, resilience.

I am a marksman with a rifle so I have one for the first years, but I also have a bow and arrows, a sword and so on, for hunting and for fighting and most importantly I have the knowledge of how to replace them from nature - and the will to use them, not just to live but in defense of what I believe. There has to be a reason to do more than survive, otherwise it is just darkness and bestiality.

One of my all time fave books and I still can't find it.
That was one of the themes explored in the book, They didnt exactly rebuild society, it took about 6 years to build a isolated society on the isle of wight. Yes there was fighting between the the survivors.
One of the concepts of the book and its follow up (Night of the Triffids-Simon Clarke) was that their society didn't produce anything from scratch-no manufactuing, they had cars, planes, electricity ect but it was all leftover from the fall of civilisation. They were a scavanger soceity.

Ive got a few Survival Skills, so I would cope!
I also know others who know different skills!
So dont think that would be a problem, for a while!
I agree with julai, there are a lot of resources in the world, so many things wouldnt be that difficult for a while!
But there would be plenty of problems in the form of other humans, who knew nothing, but would be happy to mug or murder you for what you had!
Personally killing them would probably be easier for me, than killing the animals to eat!
But I also have a plan!
Kidnap Ray Mears!

Good series by the way! I also watched it aged about 10!
Day of the Triffids also good!
I suspect that Pagans would have a better chance of surviving than most generally! Due to our wide ranging interests and knowledge about Nature!

The gods sure do come up with some weird things. I have been looking all over the net for this series but hadn’t a clue what it was called. I knew there was a terry in there somewhere but that was it. And then lo and behold I even get a link.
I would love to say I was inspired by thought and reflection to embark on my path but in truth it was probably this TV series that led me to where I am today. It had a profound effect on me and the memory still does. It gave a direction to my at the time random crawling around in nature.
I have done both military and civilian survival courses, quite a few of each. I spend and have always spent a lot of time in the woods and mountains and have had some quite long periods alone living rough and hunting and gathering. I suppose you cold say it is a hobby. The most eye opening courses I have done have been the combat survival ones. One stage of these was a bunch of civilians against ex-professionals. All illusions about eating pignuts and making bows just vanish when you realise how much other people are going to influence everything you do. I’ve shot just about every weapon could lay my hands on some with accuracy some not and made fire in numerous ways and made bivvys out of branches and all the other stuff they teach but more important than all this above all I use my brain and can turn off the small amount of empathy and compassion I have and can be a right bastard and have no illusions as to how difficult it will all be so I’m sure I would survive. Even more so now I have a wife and child to protect. But I’m now coming up to 50 and though fit I physically tire quicker than when I was younger and will anyway probably have forgotten many techniques so am bound to be less of a survivor than I once was in terms of procuring food. But despite this I think that the main thing is to be realistic (as in seeing things as they are, not as you would like them to be), ingenious, creative, inventive, crafty and ruthless which I think I am, and to have a big dollop of determination and self confidence both of which I have in large quantities (in a living rough situation I mean, not necessarily in normal life). I really don’t think that survival will be so much a case of nuts and twigs and peaceful gathering of berries as theft and violence and fear. Therefore I count the ability to be detached and calculating (in the sense of using my brain) above everything else as the number one thing that would help me survive (unless of course there is a thunderstorm in which case I’m doomed).
As Julai says I’m not sure that it will be necessary to have to learn smelting and brewing or metal working as, if the population were reduced drastically, there would be more than enough of everything to go round for generations. Food and water and health would be the problem but I think general day to day mental survival would be even more of a problem especially to anyone who has not experienced cold, discomfort, solitude, fear, real darkness, hunger etc. Many people would suffer at the catastrophic interruption in their lives and just curl up our toes and go to their happy place. Having seen what some physically weedy blokes and (especially) women managed to do on some of the courses and how the hilariously tough and apparently macho guys often turn out to be the ones that end up bursting into tears and giving up I think it all depends on your psychological make-up and your determination to come out on top but also to be able to function as part of a group (unfortunately something I don’t have which limits my chances of survival). But then if you are laid out with tetanus or tick fever, the squits, flu, infected cuts or asthma and so on being able to make stone tools or fire with a bow or hunt with a piece of string and a pin is not going to matter in the slightest especially if that is the day the large well armed group comes out of the city to raid your place.
I think this is a fascinating subject and read no end on the matter and put as much of it into practice as possible, but not so much the ray mears stuff (which though interesting and fun is imo not really that practical in the mountains or for anyone that has always lived in a town), more the psychological aspect of survival; at what point would I personally give up and above all what will other people do and how will other people react? Stick anyone in a wood with a good book on wild food and most will be able to survive, psychologically I think we are all going to have some problems..

Intresting Point Woozle. Psycholigally people are pack animals, if such a event were to happen then all those who wern't equipped to cope mentally would probably fall under the control of Faschist Warlord Gangs.
I think that one orgiansation that would survive a catastropic event would be the Orgainsed Criminal Gangs, The Mafia, The Yardies and the Triads allready have a Hierarchial Infastructrre in place and a outlaw mindset would be a advantage. Who would be stealing lorries, diesil and clearing out the supermarkets? Not your Bank managers? Jeez thats a depressing image isnt it, we trade one bunch of criminals in a for another. And no "law" to keep them in place
Or would there be a resurgence in Religion? People would turn to God for help. Bad news for us pagans then we would be driven underground or a return to the Burning times Hangings in the Town Square for stealing a loaf of Bread.

A few years ago i read up on martial law both in england and italy.The hairs are still standing up on the back of my neck.

I was fascinated both when I first saw it, and more recently watching it on dvd by the way the survivors tended to clump together into discrete groups; the scavengers, the feudal lord of the manor types, the martial law tyrant, and one chap with the noble(?) aim of gathering a harem in order to repopulate the country, except he cocked it up by bringing the corn dolly into the house in the wrong season. The immediate problems of survival, and the different approaches to it are so realistically done. And Abby Grant definitely - um- inspires me still.

For myself, I'm not sure how good at the business of survival I'd be. I know I'm mentally tough enough, but physically? I'd stand not a hope in hel of learning to shoot, I can't see clearly enough for that, and the chances of finding an optician are slim. James Burke did a series, Connections, anyone remember that? which got me thinking in much the same way. Apart from the sociological aspects, which are huge, the question of re-learning how to make, a plough, say, or to use Nation's example, an axe. Where would you start, and how soon? If the first generation who remember how things used to be do not start to teach the children, how quickly would the knowledge be lost? And then there's the question of deciding what to teach them, obviously most of what we learned at school would be of little use.

I'd like to think that there would be a natural resurgence in paganism as we were forced to connect more with the land and the seasons, but if most of the survivors were the human equivalent of cockroaches, aka chavs, theres not much chance of it, unfortunately.

Survival is not a problem for me. Grew up in some pretty pioneering parts of Canada and raised on the basics thereof. Have always had to be self-sufficient, creative and pragmatic. Have hunted and fished with self-made devices. Obsidian carves better than any knife. Know how to build all kinds of things from scratch. My father was a mineral prospector as well as a civil engineer and pyrotechnician. Inventiveness runs in the family. Of course, if food resources run into a clinch, there's always plenty of "long pig".

I think it would turn out like parenting for me; Something which in theory I thought I'd be admirable at, but in fact haven't a clue

This is a question that comes up quite frequently round the camp fire at the re-enactments that I do.

Generally the opinion is that as medieval re-enactors we are quite well placed to survive in the long term. We have a diverse range of achaic skills amoungst the group to call on - from fire lighting, hunting, preparing food and cooking on open fires, use of various weapons and armour and the skills to do things like tanning leather / hides,, potters, making armour / weapons (including various smiths compleat with forges) and various wood skills from green wood bodging all the way through to (round) house building and thatching. There are members with animal husbandery skills, mounted members, and members who can make and use black powder from first principles and so on. Not to mention the skills we bring from our 21 C lives, which include various teachers, medical and army assosiated folks.
In addition we already have many of the basic tools / equipment in our possesion (everything from tents to crocks sutable for open fire cooking, fire lighting equipment, knives, axes to outdoor clothing, preserved foods and more). We have a well established and respected comand system, based on 'households'. There is also a general knowledge of how to survive well without 'modern' things like fridges, lights, clean water, and flush loos without getting ill.

This, the general opinion says, would give us a head start on those who survive, but would have to salvage or steal items whilst going through a very steep learning curve.

There was a plan, half joke half real, for the 'end of the world' senirios that were being bounced around 1999 / 2000. I guess that if I survived the inital plague, bomb or what ever culls the human race I would hope that enough of us remember that plan and put it in to practice. Meeting up at our chosen site, which has all we would need to set up a fairly robust comunity or at least a base of operations to move on from.

Be bright,be bold
Fillionous