For the last few years, I've noticed a lot of courses purporting to teach the basics of the Wiccan belief system incorporate the concept of 'chakras' in those courses.

I can't recall Gerald ever writing much about Kundalini yoga so I'm wondering how those two got together , as it were ( I could be wrong, it's been years since I read Gardner ).

Kundalini yoga is a lifetime study and very complex : there is no guarantee that one will EVER reach the highest level in one's lifetime. Yet I read courses and hear people speak about these things as if they can open and close their 'chakras' like clams at the change of the tides . The people that engage in the discipline of Kundalini yoga ( that I have met - very few admittedly) tend to work very hard at it and have the mind set of 'it may take a life time' and most will not reach the 'top'.

So, could someone please tell me two things:

1) how a 'course' could be taught in a few days ( theory yes, practice no ) and if these day long courses are just the history and theory of it? Surely no one could come out of some course claiming mastery of something which the people who have practiced it for years over the centuries have somehow missed?

2) What on earth it has to do with 'Wicca' as it was originally formulated?

I'm sure I'm just lacking some essential piece of information here as I tend to look at them as separate practices.

Thanks,

Marto

Can't tell you about Wicca, there's much better people on here for that but Kundalini isn't alone in this treatment. I've lost count of the people I've known (online...mostly) who have attended one workshop at one Mind Body Spirit Fayre and become experts in reiki, EFT, auras, massage, aromatherapy, herbalism and so on.

There's something wrong with people, is it since the 80's? No one wants to wait for anything, not a new TV, not a meal, not even wisdom or enlightenment, if you don't tell folk they can have it NOW, they don't want it.

Apart from the Wiccan aspect in which Esk has pointed out

I have often wondered this myself Celtic reiki being an example

Do you have to study their Mythology for some period of time before you reach the title of Master ?

Don't know anything about wicca so can't anwer about that but as far as accelerated courses in everything go, there are so many gullible people around it is very profitable.
If you have a new idea (even pick 'n' mix of ideas) you can live quite well. There are even courses in feng shui for god's sake!! Over here Reiki seems to be the most fashionable. Everybody is doing it and all are experts. Try to find a simple massage is impossible it's all indian head massage, mongolian foot massage ancient aboriginal digeridoo massage (no, really!! it's true).
It used to be 'Mill's own herbal recipe cures all known ills' to take people in. Now it's stuff from other cultures. Nobody is really interested in learning. It's just nice to be able to say i do reiki, or i am a herbalist. It sounds good in the pub and helps the economy too.
Perhaps i am too cynical though but really, 6 month courses in chromo-therapy (???!!!) and only a year for shiatsu here.

woozle bounces off gaily to do some work with the firm intent to invent some form of philosophy and open a school, make a packet and retire to Torre pellice..

As Esk points out it's all symptomatic of the Now Culture we currently live in - instant gratification without the hard work. This is specially prevelant I think in the pagan and new age areas because many of the things on offer either aren't regulated or aren't acknowledged by the mainstream (specially spiritual matters) and so shysters and con-artists can operate easily.

To answer the OP, Vivienne Crowley uses Chakras in her path, and she is an initiated Wiccan HPs. It may be worth investigating her further to find out if the use of Chakras was already established when she was initiated or if she added it herself. I do know that they were already common in neo-paganism when I started back in the 80s, so it isn't that recent.

Neo-paganism is famous (notorious?) for picking and mixing other traditions in with it. I don't think it is a bad thing, although I personally don't think that Eastern Mysticism mixes that well with Western Mystery Traditions. But I am probably wrong and they sit together perfectly.

The thing which would make them a bad fit in this particular example is the intensity of training and understanding that is needed for Kundalini yoga. It is not 'mixable', if you see what I mean. Also, as I stated it is not simple, easy and most certainly not fast! The most advanced people will admit it is unlikely anyone will reach the nirvana state in one life-time. 'Chakras' cannot be 'separated' from the discipline yet how many times have I read or heard someone mention " Oh, you need to wear ____crystal to help 'open up' your throat Chaka' etc. . It simply makes no sense out of context with the original beliefs and practices and that's what confuses me.

Marto

I have visions of little trapdoors slamming open and shut everytime people talk about 'opening' their chakras.

To me, it is just another version of grounding and shielding, but there was a stage when Oriental healing was all the rage and I suspect if someone used Chakras etc as part of their path it is difficult now to give them up. I have never met a person using Chakras who claimed to be a Yogi.

Personally, I blame it all on Blavatsky!

Joking aside, there are energy centres in the body, but as has been noted already, the Indian concept of Kundalini is far different from our Western interpretation. These classes can I suppose teach the principles - but then, I could read a book on brain surgery. Would you then allow me to operate on your brain?

Also, raising kundalini can be extremely traumatic, not to say dangerous. Apparently it can trigger all sorts of mental and physical problems. The idea of concentrating on chakras may well be helpful in helping a person to attain a better understanding of themselves and the whys and wherefores of how they are dealing with all life throws at them. However, I have grave doubts as to the efficacy of doing this as a means to attaining the enlightened state it was designed to enable by its original teachers.

And added to Celtic Reiki - hows about Celtic Faerie Picti Wicca?

She's got a lot to answer for.



Agreed. But, as with so much Indian stuff, it's been totally bastardised by our culture over the last century. I blame it all on Blavatsky. She started it.



Again, I agree Tas.



Oh, I so want that... where do I sign up?

Caerthan

I worship at the altar of your common sense

LOL, shhhhh. Someone will revoke my pagan status if they find out!

I won't tell anyone honest! I shall just spread the Word of Esk......"one Mind Body Spirit Fayre doth not an expert make!"

Personally I wasn't attuned to Reiki over night, it took me six months of hard work to get to Reiki level 2, and 18 months on I am still working at it and each time I work with Reiki it's a new learning experience. As to chakras, yes the concept of energy centres has been around a very long time and I am not sure that you can open and close chakras at will, but I do believe they can be out of balance and that it is possible to bring them back into balance, and in that respect I have been able to help some by bringing their chakras back into balance, for me at least it does work.

Exactly Shak - I agree that one's energies can become out of kilter - and like you I doubt one can "learn" about such things as a fast track solution. That's just wishful thinking IMO.

When I did Reiki 1 it was a weekend, but in reality that's just the beginning. It bothers me that some might take a weekend course to go from zero to level 2 or even Master and start charging people for their services 5 mins later! I work on my Reiki every week and won't take level 2 until I feel I am ready (my Master requires you to wait at least 6 months). I hope to incorporate it into my business at some point and hey we could do with the money ASAP but I won't do it until I know I am in the right place.

Of course Reiki is a special case in a sense because once you are attuned, you have it and that's that. Usui didn't use special hand positions or anything like that. You just place your hands and Reiki flows. But doing it professionally is another matter.

Celtic Reiki, now that baffles me

I agree that some people do the weekend Reik courses and almost straight away start charging for their services, but I do believe there has to be a lot of experiencing Reiki first before going into business. Both my courses ran for 10 weeks and 18 months on I am still learning and I use Reiki almost everyday, although I don't believe I am ready to pass on attunements yet, although at some point I might, and if I do then it won't be one day or weekend courses. And I agree with you about the hand positions, Usai didn't use them, for as you say the Reiki just flows going where it is needed.

Dear Ww,



I'd largely agree with that, possibly with the addition of a few other words like centering and attuning. I know of Kundalini Yoga only through fairly sketchy reading, but don't see much to connect it with what's sometimes described in those terms by some folk within Wicca.

But that's one of the joys of Wicca, or even of Paganism in general. Lots of us mean completely different things by the same words, and lots of us mean the same things by completely different words, but it all still makes sense somehow, and even possesses a remarkable degree of coherence.

BB,

John Macintyre

Which I agree with as long as people keep it to themselves. I've had to throw out enough 'new-agers' from hospitals who were giving false hope ( and yes, it WAS false) and upsetting relatives with their claims of 'healing' and espcially trying to sign up clients for their whoop-de-doo powers at extortionist rates based on their few days and one book 'training'. Shite.

My favourite was a lady trying to do a Jesus and Lazarus imitation at a hospice . I had her escorted off the premises and the nurse who let her in disciplined . And in case you think I'm a hard heart, let me assure you that the tears that were cried when the patients DIDN'T miraculously get better as had been promised because the lady claimed to be able to 'channel the infinite powers of the UNIVERSE' to 'cure them' were absolutely gutting.

Maybe a lot of these 'new-age' healers should remember the caveat of Primum non nocere - First, do no harm. And harm comes in many packages, not least of which is the giving of bogus credentials as to 'power', false promises and the giving of false hopes. Hope and sheer will is frequently the thing that helps people hold on, even in the face of incredible odds against them. The person that takes that away by claiming they have 'better' is lower than the ground their victims will be layed in , IMO.

Marto

Persactly Tas there are the differences in the physical make-up too!!

Here are some examples




&

Wow! That guys a NATURAL! Just goes to show you what can be accomplished with absolutely no training in a discipline whatsoever!

I'm humbled.

Marto

Yuck, that's pretty shocking! I'd think that some Christian claims would come into the same category. For example I was told I should give up a special diet I follow because I was "in bondage to food" and God would give me the strength to deal with the consequences. Of course nothing like that happened, I just got very unhealthy in every way and 3 years on am still dealing with the fallout .

Dear Marto,



Most folk who do Pagan Hospital Chaplaincy work on behalf of reponsible organisations seem pretty well aware of the dangers of arousing false hopes in patients - particularly with those who become interested in Paganism while in hospital - and are appropriately cautious with the words they use. I'm not aware of any significant problems of that kind that have arisen in this country so far. It hadn't actually occurred to me that self-styled commercial 'healers' would treat hospitals or hospices as hunting grounds for clients. I'd hope people who did that could be charged with fraud.

Joking apart, the very broad use of many terms in Paganism is actually a good thing as it keeps reminding us that we can't really know all that much about what someone is, believes and does from a few key words or labels. You need to spend a fair bit of time talking to them and getting to know them as a human being before that really starts to become clear. I think this helps us keep focussed on what the words are trying to describe rather than on the words themselves.


BB,

John Macintyre

Interest in working with the Chakras has been around as long as the occult revival in the late 19th century [and earlier]. Moina Mathers the wife of one of the founders of the Golden Dawn was actively teaching chakra theory in connection with western ritual way back in the early 20th century and Alistair Crowley himself in Liber HHH gives a chakra ritual. It seems to be trendy now to blame Blavatsky for all the wrongs that have accured in the western occult revival [partly because of her Aryan theories] but in truth she was an amazing individual with great insights [according to the limitations of her own time of course - as with us all of course] and the neo-pagan movement has much to thank her for, along with the Golden Dawn and Alistair Crowley.

Im my personal opinion there is nothing wrong with adopting techniques from other traditions if one finds resonance with it, as the spirit of man is universal. The western occult tradition is itself a mish mash of Greek, Egyptian, Roman, Etruscan, Celtic, Norse etc etc all of which are Indo European as is the Hindu Indian tradition, though there is also a strong Mesopotamian/Judaistic element to modern neo-paganism and much of that is Semitic, yet most people seem to have less of a problem with that for some odd reason and will more easily reject the Indo European traditions of India.

However most importantly in out modern consummerist culture we have adopted something far more insidious which is the 'give it to me now', 'fast track' lifestyle which has likewise been grafted onto our spiritual lives, and any tradition that simply offers a 'transmission of energy' has now become more important than one that demands years of practice, as such traditions offer an instant fix [Reiki being a typical example, which is why it is now so excessively popular]. Thus if one is to glean ones practices from other traditions, its not where it come from that is the problem, but your intent and your willingness to study it with care and time. It is not Blavatsky that is to blame for the corruption of modern neo-paganism, but the New Age consummerism of the 1980's [in particular] that is to blame and unfortunately post 80's neo-paganism is now very much a product of this consummerist 'fast track' New Age 'spirituality', that relies on the 'psychic' emotionalism of the moment rather than any real firm practice.

Of course 'real firm' practice is something everyone cliams they do, but in comparison to the decades of practice required in the past, the 18mths of 'firm' practice that people now proudfully claim they have done [believing 18mths to be a great achievement] would have been looked upon with scorn just 50yrs ago.

wolvie that first photo is of the guy who created Ienga yoga. my mother used to practise this and i used to go for fun. its really tough and it trains your muscles to work so much better.
it is not so based on chakras but more on muscle use. the guy in the second pic is just doing what every drunk can do. get into all strange shapes. the alcohol just loosens the muscles. the next day tho i bet his hangover was a killer.

I like Athena's tag-line, find it out of place in this thread - very staunch opinions of what a 'new-ager' is, who fits the category of 'yogi' and what is and is not 'wicca' - wonder if Gerald Gardner himself would have been so rigid, given his immense interest in Eastern traditions and his incorporation of it into Western occultism? Same with Crowley, same with Blavatsky, same with Fortune...

I very much liked Synophiucus' post.

Elements of Chaos Magic would also align with eclecticism based on 'firm practice' (I like that phrase, makes me think of sex magic ).

As for bogus healers, I think that's interesting psychology for a whole other thread, however, many divs have worked for 'responsible organisations' lol

Whereas I agree that some cynicism is healthy and common sense (whatever we defined it to be in the thread of that name) is important, I think the viciousness with which we approach a lot of subjects and ideas can be self-detrimental. So, something's unlikely to work - don't do it. But we get a bit engrossed in pointing out the flaws, whereas there's likely also to be some benefits. I like what was said before about the universal nature/spirit of man. It holds true. We're all travelling that circle, just at different speeds and incarnations. Would people be so impatient with their own children if they decided to flirt with a concept?

Finally - eclecticism - occult knowledge and practices have been traded by cultures across the globe since day dot. That's nothing new. People try things, work out if they work and adapt them. From the Chinese to the Africans, the Native Americans to the Eastern Europeans. Long may it continue. As for 'not waiting' and having no patience, some of the best achievements and worst mistakes have come through man's impatience with his own mortality - makes for an interesting collective history

If you have the time, patience and inclination to dedicate to one path and philosophy - and there are those that do - then good, and become good! If not, it doesn't make you less good at what you do, just different - in the same way people who stick to a path are not guaranteed to achieve it in full, those who are eclectic are not all doomed to failure. Steep learning curbs abound on both sides, but as the signs of the zodiac are different in nature - like Capricorn and Pisces - both are intriguing in their own right.

By the way, you might like this book - not bad on the matter if it's the one I'm thinking of. Basically Gopi Krishna writes prolifically on the subject of Kundalini.

My motto has always been: "if it works then use it, if it doesn't then don't for the time being - until you are ready". I think it isn't advisable to walk around and remain fixed on one path only, without having an "interest" in other fields or branches, but that certainly doesn't make you an expert in all of them.

I don't like the "new name" giving either when you use one or two techniques from another system. There are carrots and there are peas, but when you put the two together, it doesn't create an instant beautiful pottage without the knowledge, does it?!

My hubby has been practising Yoga for many many years, he does it every other night in the front room, and it does take some serious dedication. He would never call himself a Yogi though, he does it to alleviate his sciatica problems which he used to suffer from so badly that he couldn't get himself out of bed or out of his chair without screaming from the pain. It has done the trick for him, he hasn't had any back complaints for many years since he got the hang of the Yoga. Although Yoga isn't a "Western" thing in origin, it works for him, so he uses it as far as he can get with it.

I can't label myself of what I am as I don't know it myself other than that I base my knowledge on trial and error. I have taken a much less physical route than my husband and enjoy the usage of "Hand Yoga" (Mudras) combined with other things to improve the problems I had with my hands due to repetitive strain from typing, and to improve my quality of life in general. Have I got a name for "what" I am? Nope, never have and never will, as I simply don't see a need for it.

For me, I think it comes down to that: whatever I do, read, or study, ... it is all to add to the way of life, and to enhance it. Sometimes one needs a purpose in order to pick up a book about a different system, it always happens when the need arises; and until that time, just be happy with who you are and what you do, never mind what it is called or should be called.

A lot of paths intertwine with one another any way, just like people move from country to country, so does knowledge. It is very difficult to put a red marker as to where one path ends and where the next one begins.

Cardamom.