Now that PEBBLE has been going for a bit, and magazines and websites are getting membership (Pagan Network and Pentacle Magazine) because they have actual live events, a bit like the UKP camps, is there any political will within UKP to apply for PEBBLE representation, and more to the point, anyone who wants the job of PEBBLE rep?

Personally I can't see PEBBLE doing anything that the PF weren't doing before, and I don't like that certain groups/people seem to be using PEBBLE to give themselves some kind of legitimacy, but that's my personal opinion.

I'd be interested to know what others think.

Rhiannon

What the hell is PEBBLE? Or am I being thick?

PEBBLE

Don't confuse it with the people who will sell you flight-socks.

Actually our company intranet is named "pebble" for reasons too fatuous to go into here. The information about PEBBLE the lobbying organisation was greeted with gales of laughter in our office. If only I could persuade some pagans to make enquiries to my company (it sells software). But our "pebble" is a term used internally only. Sad.

Really big old thread on PEBBLE here on the forum. Now the 'dust has settled'? The concept's so old it's got cobwebs

Do give us another update in a year or ten

Hi Thin

Yes I read through that thread. I was more interested in what people thought now PEBBLE had been going for a couple of years.

I would guess that for most people it hasn't made a jot of difference to their everyday lives?

Rhiannon

Absolutely no difference at all.

I would bet a year's wages that no-one outside online Paganism and the part of the government that deals with them, has even heard of PEBBLE.

That shows you how much good they've done.

Absolutely none at all.

T

I'd feel a lot more positive towards a "pro-pagan" group that didnt lump Witchcraft and Wicca into the same bracket.

I know you cant define every single path, but come on... its a fundamental mistake.

I think the anonymity of PEBBLE is a problem, it's hard to see how they can represent people who've never heard of them and therefore haven't been given the oppertunity to make their views known.

It's a shame though, I think it's doomed to fail simply because of that old phrase about herding cats. Pagans aren't a group you can champion or defend in unison, we're a bunch of loosely connected individuals who are connected mainly by arguments. So difficult to reach a mutally satisfying concensus among us, which is what you need to present to the government if you want them to take you seriously.

From the brief time I spent with PEBBLE it seemed to me that they are representing themselves to the Government as some sort of cohesive and singular voice for paganism, and so are getting taken seriously (or at least the Government officials are acting like they take them seriously, whether they titter into their coffee once the meetings are over is another question).

Rhiannon

I work in Government, and I am not sure the impact Pebble has actually had. I know they liaise with the Home Office, but not sure about other departments, which speaks volumes to me about their profile. PF has a much higher profile in the MoD.

The problem (for Pebble) is that most Government departments were pretty clued up on non-mainstream religions before Pebble got started. I think Pebble was a handy way of collecting together the main representatives of paganism at the time, but now those groups are anachronistic. Why is Pagan Network still in there? And how come CoA got in? And where are the updates on the very groups that joined?

Like the PF, it is hard for me to accept that any of these people speak for me. They have decided to make decisions that are nothing to do with what I want. They don't represent me, and I bet most pagans would agree.

Too damn right Wyrdwoman. The only folks they can truely represent are themselves. It is rather like the "Baptists claiming to represent the entire christian church".

Don't need representation, don't want representation and will loudly slag off anyone who tries to represent me. I preferred paganism and pagans when there weren't any, before it became a fashion which for the most part is all it seems to be.
I cannot and have never been able to see the purpose of organizing groups and federations and associations. Organizing and representation is for power, money or control and i can't see that that has anything to do with paganism and belief but maybe it soon will have as we become more and more like the other organized religions ).
Never heard of pebble. Maybe they are organised byking kev??

I was fairly close to PEBBLE when it started up and it seemed unnecessary then and my thoughts haven't changed. Nice sentiment, but wholly useless.

Hi Woozle



Ok <fx:when I were a lad>
Back in the late 1980's when I first stumbled into Paganism there was a real fear that you could loose your job, have your windows put through, your pets killed and mutilated and have your name and photo plastered all over the News of the World (and any of the other tabloid Sunday newspapers for that matter.

I remember Geoffrey Dickens MP for Huddersfield West and later Littleborough and Saddleworth, standing up in the House of Commons warning the house of a tide of Witchcraft and evil spreading across the country. I remember also children being removed from their homes in Rochdale, Nottingham, and Orkney on the belief that pagan belief = evil satanism. I remember the Reachout Trust fomenting hatred of Witchcraft. </fx>

It is thanks to the work of organisation like the PF and others that this sort of abuse of pagans and their families is now a rare occurrence.

It is notable that while I was looking things up for this reply I found that the Reachout Trust is still going and continues to spout its vitriolic crap.

I think that the jury is still out as the the effectiveness of Pebble though.

Wassail
Singe

Reachout Trust is indeed still going. I got involved in a tussle with them a few years ago, bringing in a few Christian ex-Pagans to support refutations of their crap (on the basis that it should have been harder for them to dismiss the Christians than to dismiss me as an 'obvious devil worshiping mouthpiece for Satan'). The level of academic evidence we brought to bear on shredding one of their popularly spouted 'books' was extensive and thoroughly researched. They dismissed us outright, refusing to respond to the evidence presented. If it doesn't fit the way they want to see the world then they won't listen. It took quite a bit before they dropped the woman from Beacon Trust (Maureen Davies? Can't remember now) who was heavily behind the SRA scandals of the late 80's and early 90's. Even then, they didn't actually drop the concept of SRA from their thinking.

Reachout Trust is one of those organisations that manages to promote an agenda that only marginally falls short of hate speech. But that margin is enough to keep them able to do what they do. Certain organisations, like the PF for example, WILL speak out against things that are in the public eye and falsely paint Paganisms in a bad light. But the biggest weapon we can have in our arsenal is education. Not just education in schools, but education in workplaces too.

I understand a lack of trust for pagan organisations in their potential inability to represent all Pagans. But perhaps what those organisations CAN do is to continue to work for Pagans to keep the right to present their beliefs and practises, rather than have assumptions of devil worship and sexual abuse be the default.... and in some situations there are Pagans who STILL feel being open about their beliefs may threaten their employment, housing and the like. It is not that long ago that Ice and Blu were posting here about the terrible experiences they were having at the hands of the local Christians who also happened to hold influencial posts in the local authority (both housing and child protection IIRC). Without Pagan organisations gaining recognition as legitimate representatives for Pagans, people who still find themselves falling into that kind of situation would only have themselves to rely on in countering falsehoods. talking to 'officialdom' is important, and 'officialdom' prefers to speak to people who act as representatives. I would hope that those who reject Pagan orgaisations as representative never find themselves in need of a recognised advocate.

BB

Mike

I remember Mad Maureen's antics very well, for those new to the business - she managed to convince the social services that she was an expert on child protection - in reality she was a dental nurse with some very weird ideas. it would be a mistake to think the was just a loony working on her own, she had the full backing and support from the evangelical churches, as did her contemporary Audrey Harper, the famous "imposter" victim - who according to her suffered every kind of abuse you can think of at the hands of a group of satanists. She could recall all of the sexual goings on in graphic detail - but alas could not remember where, when, and by whom.


As far as Pebble is concerned the Derbyshire Branch of it used to meet in the downstairs room of our local - though they never actually mentioned it on the occasions we dropped in. Pleasant and welcoming though they were, they had one main fault which is perhaps not uncommon in certain types of Pagos - that is, they automatically assumed you knew absolutely nothing about Paganism, and had naturally come to learn it all from them.

So, with that in mind, I'll stick to representing myself.

I must admit that when I first heard of Pebble I thought "good idea, it'll never work", but I see that two organisations to which I belong are partner organisations of Pebble. Is CoA that Children of Artemis thing that seems to get a bad press? I have to admit that I know little about the various Witchcraft or Wiccan organisations but they do not appear to be on the Pebble list. The current list taken from their website consists of:

The Council of British Druid Orders
Derbyshire Pagans
The Druid Network
Heathens For Progress
The Pagan Federation
The Pagan Network
The Order of Bards Ovates & Druids
The Ravens

Overall I think I support their aims but the PF has changed for the better recently and has much less bias than it used to have. Having said that, it would be impossible for OBOD to work through the PF as OBOD do not demand that their membership be exclusively pagan, the majority are but a minority are not. Pebble seem happy to promote the rights of the pagan members of OBOD while accepting that there are Christian members of the Order.

Hi Bob

You've missed out "Pentacle Magazine" who are also members of PEBBLE. I'm not sure how a magazine qualifies as I wasn't at that meeting.

Actually the whole "let's stretch the rules so we can get our mates on board" was one of the reasons I personally pulled out of PEBBLE. It turned out that a couple of months later Martin and I decided to close the Pagan Association as a formal, 'membershiped' organisation anyway.

Given the newfound flexibility, it seems to me that UK Pagan could qualify for membership too, though from the comments there doesn't seem to be the political will to do so.

Rhiannon

The person who made the rules - Steve wilson - is a member of UKP, so perhaps he can enlighten us about the current rules?

From memory, he set a minimum number of membership of an organisation. But when Heathens For Progress were admitted 0 again, working from memory - they either did not meet that requirement or their numbers were calculated by reference to their forum.

I think Pentacle has a forum, so perhaps it's admitted on that basis?

He did invite a small polytheist organisation I was co-president for, whose membership were definately below the limit, to become a member, but we declined. The word 'bargepole' might come into it.

I think the main reason that things are quiet on issues of bad attitudes against Paganism, is that the Church and Establishment has found a new bogeyman in the form of atheism -which has far greater consequences regarding their privileged status than a few thousand people in (metaphorical) pointy hats.

Having followed this issue in the Theos Think Tank and similar sites - the greater part of their content is to do with the perceived threat of atheism - militant atheism as they prefer to call it, yet mad fundies are more kindly described as having deep convictions. There are hundreds of media-watch reports specifically against the mildest misdemeanors of Richard Dawkins - Richard Dawkins got off a bus yesterday without saying "Thank you" to the driver - typical of the arrogance of militant atheism . . . Such is their antipathy toward atheism we are almost at the stage where they would sooner you have any religion rather than none at all.

Heh. Nice one.

Then there's the frantic inter-faith activity in order to ensure Islam is shown to be included within mainstream culture.

How on earth does one be a militant athiest?

Speaking as an "Athiest", I have to admit to being a little confused as to how or who I aim my militancy at? I mean, how do I choose from the many many faiths who to attack? Do I use peaceful means or do I start taking flying lessons and do I arrange simultanious attacks on The Vatican, The Wailing Wall, Mecca and Stone Henge or do I just try to obliterate one faith at a time?

Amazing how any faith group can attack what they see as abhorant to their faith and I mean literally attack, people, places but when we speak.. we're militant.

That's because many of these fundamentalist loonies are hypocrites - because they believe they have The Truth it's just fine and dandy to attack anyone they think are against them, but when others of different beliefs (or none) attack their, franky, ridiculous attitude then it is militant. Just finished watching Jesus Camp - a very disturbing case of indoctrination of young children (child abuse if you ask me).

I don't know what the religious definition of militant atheism is, but I do know what the atheist definition is: an atheist who constantly attacks and insults other religions for no reason.

Lets face it, they exist. Richard Dawkins isn't even close to some of the attacks and flames I have seen online. And because of that, atheists get it right back, and who can blame the religioius for that? So I get attacked as an atheist by all religions, including pagans, fr the actions of other people.

And so as not to go completely OT, funnily enough the work that Pebble does do impacts on atheism too. The Religious Diversity Act not only covers all people of religion, be they Muslims, Hindus, Christians etc, but also people of no religion. Atheists have the same legal protection in the work place and out and about that religious people do.

The problem isn't the religion, or lack of it. It is the people who are practicing (or ignoring) those religions. They would be arseholes whatever they were, so blaming it on their religion, or lack of it, is a huge white elephant.

Folks, we've really drifted off at a tangent here, can we get back to the original thread please? If people want to continue discussing the OT and so on, either start a new thread (in the Snug since it's not a Pagan topic - hint ) or take it to Wulfric's most recent blog

Please Miss, they started it!

Ooops, sorry.

Sheesh, talk about brick walls!

Right, if you want to continue the topic of PEBBLE so far as it relates to PAGANISM (HINT!) then continue here. If you want to continue the subject of the OT, with maybe a bit of PEBBLE chucked in, then please go to the new thread: here

Just a general query. Did I hear right when someone said that the Children of Artemis had been invited to join? I am sure many people know my antipathy regarding this particular group, but what are people's opinions regarding the inclusion of a group that censors its own forum and removes members who they consider don't 'fit in'?

If you are then you are eminently qualified to join Pebble, who are an unelected group of such hubris that they feel they have the right to speak for anyone in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland who identifies themselves as pagan. Via HAD they also feel - and this is beyond hubris - that they have the right to speak for the Dead.

Their definition of paganism does not mention Gods, they are obsessing over dictionaries and their talk of a victory over the issue of a pagan court oath is nothing of the sort, court process permitting people their choice of wording where oaths are concerned.

The Pagan Dash campaign also seems to have ground to a halt, or at least has not been posted about much lately. This is the campaign being pushed by Jon Randall to open up the religious descriptors on the next Census so tnat instead of just 'pagan', we can choose 'pagan -' and then put what we want. Unfortunately, as I don't class myself as a 'pagan witch' (just a witch thanks) I am not in favour, although I can see where the idea is going.

The main complaint is that it fragments the already tenuous number admitting to paganism on the forms.

I spent some time scratching my head when I first heard of Pagan Dash, wondering what people thought fun runs had to do with the census. Had this campaign been called Pagan Hyphen it would all have made much more sense to me, but now that I am aware that this is an attempt at a catchy, cool name to sum up the campaign I understand it yet regard it as a failure.

It’s a daft idea, too, that pagans should assert their religion on a census when for so many people calling themselves pagan the entire point is that they aren’t tied into any one belief system and may be Kemetic in the month the census is completed yet Vodoun the next. The idea behind Pagan Dash absolutely fails to grasp the nature of paganism as it currently exists.

Yes, there will be those people whose religions do not change from month to month and year to year, but for what reason, then, may these to be thrown in with the masses of people for whom religion is something which follows mood and reading habits? Pagan Dash is just another bad idea following the Pebble ethic of mashing up the rich, hot diversity of paganism into a homogenous puddle of cold pavement gloop.

I have recently posted something similar in my LJ. I find it very strange that many pagans are striving to homogenise paganism, and this and other Pebble campaigns seem to help that along.

Why should an Asatruar be lumped in with a Hellenic recon? Why should I be expected to be thought of as the same as a pseudo-shaman?

I had a problem with PF when they had the 3 requisites before you could join (thank gods they got rid of those), and the attempts to carve us into a describable whole, although for good reasons, is bound to fail IMO.

To be more concise, we are too arsy to work together.

I had to google that, being a little out of date on what PEBBLE are up to.

I thought you were exaggerating, but apparently not. HAD reburial rite]HAD

Whilst I can appreciate the sentiments behind treating human remains with respect, if I were unfortunate enough to have such claptrap spoken over what was left of me after the acheologists had had their pick, I would haunt the perpetrators for the rest of their natural existence.

Hubris is the right word. What gives HAD the right to dictate how people from a culture about which we know so little should be reinterred?



**edited by Xalle to fix the hyperlink**

It isn't just them. Wasn't there some Druid group down south who picketed some museum wanting various skeletons to be buried according to what their idea of 'pagan' was? Yes, respect our ancestors, but do not for one moment expect that they practiced neo-druidism. Ugh.

If I remember correctly that was the Loyal Arthurian Warband who are a little eccentric in their ways but I believe that they just wanted the bones to be replaced as they were, not re-buried elsewhere. I can kind of see their point but I am torn between the needs of Archaeology and the indignation of some Pagans.

As for Pagan Dash, the Abrahamic religions don't have Abrahamic-Jewish, -Christian, -Muslim and they are far more closely related than Asatruar and Hellenic Recons.

No, it was the branch of neo-druidism that split off from COBD. I think they called themselves Western Order of Druids and were run by someone called Denny. I remember them getting their mugs into the local press because they wanted some Iron Age skeletons to have a neo-druid 'funeral'.

As batty as LAW are, I would hate for another branch of batso pagans not to get the attention they deserve.

Yep you're right, its the LAW who are campaigning for the stonehenge skeletons to be replaced at the moment...

As a dear friend of mine is closely associated with HAD, I have an inkling of the motive here. The primary purpose is to prevent other people assuming they know best about which religious rite to use when re-interring the dead. In the past that meant using Christian rites, though I clearly recall a pagan meeja whore affectionally known as 'Psychoceramic' to some insisting, a few years ago, that some remains of someone in an area from an era and locality which might imply they were e.g. Saxon, insisting on an e.g. Celtic burial rite.

Why should HAD’s speculations signify? If those performing a re-interring do not know the religion of the person being re-interred - that’s know rather than assert or guess or assume or interpret or confect or reconstruct - then no religious ritual should be performed, pagan or Christian or whatever. A HAD ritual is no more respectful nor useful than a Christian ritual when re-interring someone who has no connection with either modern paganism or Christianity. A punch in the mouth is just as much of an insult as a slap across the face. HAD are simply mistaken if they think otherwise.

Heh. Probably so. I had not interpreted the HAD ritual as necessarily being religious. Is it?



See above.



Mildly aggressive language here. Any reason for that?

Indisputably:

Sorry, I used the wrong phrase. My bad. You referred to religious ritual. I hadn't interpreted the HAD ritual as being a religious ritual. It reads more akin to the sort of thing the HUmanist society might come up with.

I think that given the evidence of their own site which I have presented to you above this is not a realistic reading. HAD are not a secular organisation.

excuse me but what are HAD to do with Pebble

confused of nofolk

Just to clear a few things up, Moonhunter I know you are working from memory, however HFP conformed to all the membership requirements for PEBBLE when they joined, the members of the forum as full voting members of HFP as is made clear, it is the full membership of HFP that decides HFP's position on any subject.



Dear Wyrdwoman, could you let us know what exactly the PF has done and/or is doing with regards to the MOD, I know the founder and representative of the MOD Pagan Network which has been running for over a year and is in discussions with very senior officials of the MOD as regards the full recognition of Paganism, he would be most interested in liasing and coordinating with any other Pagan group that is active in this respect within the MOD. I would also like to point out that he has been active in this respect for a number of years and has never been a member of the PF.

For those who have said that PEBBLE has done nothing for you, I suggest you look at the following:-

The Pagan court oath

Words and definitions submitted to the Oxford English Dictionary which is the body that all other dictionary publishers refer to.

The inclusion of the eight most commonly accepted Pagan festivals in the PCSU (Public and Conumer Service Union) diaries with both the Pagan and Heathen names, the union only has approximately 319,000 everyone of whom gets a diary, the other diary printers tend to use this diary as the standard.

They are working on gaining legal recognition for handfasting ceremonies.

The member organisations such as the Ravens have raised the positive public profile of sensible Paganism with their events and articles in both the Times and Independent newspapers.

Storm Raven

Mmmm, condescending much? Well, seeing as the only Pagan group that has ever been referenced in employee magazines, such as Paperclips and Focus, so far has been PF, then you won't find it beyond the realms of understanding that I am more likely to think of them as representative within the MoD. I have never even heard of MoD Pagan Network. Is it part of PN, whose voting members are now such a small group I would doubt they still qualify for Pebble membership? Or is it a group independent of PN that coincidentally has the same name? I was a member of PN for 7 years, and have worked for the MoD for 6 years, and have never heard of this group.

You may want to advise your friend that their profile could do with raising, as there are several pagan soldiers being bullied by padres, and a lot of pagan civil servants who are citing PF as their only protection.

Firstly my intent in not to be condescending, if you feel that is the way I've addressed you then that is entirely up to you.

The MOD Pagan Network is a fully independent group that is growing amongst both the civilian staff and military, the profile of the group is being raised and the representative and founder of the group, Zin Walker is active in dealing with the problems of religious discrimination, he is well known within the MOD on both the civilian and military sides and is published in the MOD internal publication, he is easily contactable on the MOD network.

If you are aware of anyone being bullied because they are Pagan in the MOD please ask them to contact him, so that he can take it up with the relevant people.

Storm Raven