Ok someone explain this one to me...

I first and foremost consider myself a pagan of sorts... I guess mostly druidic in outlook and the like.

However, for a while I feel I have christian connections or influences from somewhere. My family are not christian, my dads a hardened atheist and we've never been to church.

I like crosses, churches, monk-style robes and some of the christian stuff rings a note of familiarity and homeliness within me. Like when I first made my staff i made the antlers at 90 degrees to the haft and something stirred deep within that was like coming home.

Its all confusing.

All I can suggest is that you meditate on what you are confused about. If it turns out that xianity is in fact your calling, then I'm sure this will be made clear to you. It could also be that in a past life you had some connection to the church?

It's the ritual - a friend of mine has moved on from being a Pago into the Russian Orthodox Church, partly for the smells and bells and partly because he felt drawn to their theology.

Why worry about it? If it suits you and it's not causing panic in the streets - go with it.

If it feels good, do it. There's nothing wrong with some xtian teachings. It's just that some of them take it all too seriously and get into the whole "my god's bigger than your god and anyway your god doesn't exist"
For me one of the things about being a Pagan is that I can choose what I beleive in.
BM
xx

I knew a lifelong fanciscan monk who was the most pagan person i know. There are lots of similarities between 'faiths' and the trappings of faith. As the others have said, go with it. Mix and match.

Have you considered the possibility that you're a goth? I think a pilgrimage to Whitby may be just what you need.

Goth?! Um well I haven't even considered that. I don't wear black makeup, though its a good colour, and am not obsessed with death.

I know some goths and I don't relate to the way they are.

Its an interesting journey at the moment as I do not believe lots of stuff in the Bible, so in my mind that means that Christianity obviously doesn't fit. The nature basis of paganism fits much more my inner self, but when I first created the "cross" staff as I say it had that deja vu and homely familiarity and I am drawn to churches and would happily wear a habit all day every day if I could.

Its hard to explain but I am drawn to lots of different and eclectic things. Its just trying to figure out who and where I am within myself at the moment. Not having anyone who can really understand me on these things is equally frustrating as people just apathetically appease me or just laugh.

I haven't had time to meditate myself lately and I am finding my thoughts becoming more disorganised in my head. Maybe I need some quiet time.

93
Have you considered more ceremonial high magick or certain wiccan paths?
I too have felt a certain stirring of sorts when attending xtian ceremonies particularly catholicism.
I suppose that all religeons possess a certain spirituality when practiced right.
Its a pity that most are not relevent to this particular aeon.
93/93 93

Perhaps it's a previous life thing? I find I'm drawn to all kinds of odd things and, although I am not someone who claims to remember past lives, sometimes the idea that I've had an intimate connection to something before is the best/only explanation. I once watched a demonstration of stained glass window making, and knew exactly how to do it before the chap told us......though I suppose I could have seen it on telly as a kid or something.

Where does one find out about Ceremonial High Magick? Wiccan paths don't tend to interest me as I've read lots about them.

I guess it could all be past lives calling out to me, but if so then they are confusing the jeebies out of me.

You aren’t obsessed with death and yet you like crosses and feel drawn to the Church. Do you know what, at its basic level, the cross represents within the Church?




I think that if you talk to lots of Christians you’ll find that many of them don’t believe a lot of the stuff in the Bible. Just as Wiccans don’t have to buy into everything Gardner and Murray published so Christians don’t have to go in for everything in their holy book. A lot of the Old Testament, for example, is merely context for the New Testament - that’s the one with the cross, by the way. There’s a lot of good and useful poetry in the Old Testament, however. I recommend the Book of Proverbs:

http://tinyurl.com/47pzl6




Yes, that's possibly the case. Be certain to feed your curiosity, however. Just as any of us would not believe what some of the less tolerant of Christianity have to say about paganism so it's not a good idea to believe some pagan critiques of Christianity. Go to the source of Christianity in our society. Go to church. Go to several. See what happens. Take it slowly but take it seriously. You don't have to believe in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ in order to sit and listen to people talking in a big building on a Sunday morning. You enter a pagan and you leave a pagan. You don't need to tell anyone there but as long as you are respectful - and don't take Communion - then there is no harm. If you do talk to Christians about your interest in Christianity then be certain to emphasise that your interest, as far as you feel it, is entirely cultural and academic and that you only wish to learn more in order to understand your own feelings.

I think it best that you leave ceremonial magic for later years.

You may want to try a few readers, as they will group together the best known or most representative of writings from various religions. Sometimes trawling through the Bible can be a bit soul destroying (pun intended), so finding a book to dip in and out of may be better. I do like the Book of Proverbs but I also have a World Religions Reader (and Chas Clifton's Paganism Reader which is excellent) that gives philosophy from all the World Religions. I have linked a few below.

World Religions Reader by Ian Markham

World Religions Reader By Gwilym Beckerlegge

Christian Theology Reader

I dunno. I have always been a bit suspicious of my Thelemite friends. The Gnostic Mass? Cakes of Light? Robes? Ahem! A lot of it seems to be very close to High Christianity (or the Bells and Smells brigade). Methinks the two may go together quite well.

93
There are many books on the subject of ceremonial magick.It wouldnt be too difficult to find one.
I reccomend "Magick in Theory and Practice" by Aleister Crowley,as this is undoubtedly the most comprehensive work on the subject ever written.
Also,much of traditional ceremonial magick uses the old judeo/christian deities which are no longer relevent in this aeon(they still work but not as effectively).
It is wiser in this age to use thelemic deities.A good starter being "Abrahadabra"by Rodney LLewellin.
Good luck in your search.
93/93 93

It’s wise not to rush in where angels fear to tread.

93
Of course one has to have a thorough grounding in the basics.This is why I reccomended this book.
93/93 93

A book which Paganboy can buy for £12.99 is going to equip him, a young man raised by atheists and without significant experience of religion and the history of these ideas, to approach ceremonial magic? I don’t think so.

I'm gonna have to ask. what are these numbers that are in all of your posts?

I think it might be esoteric...


http://alternative-religions.suite101.com/..._thelema_primer

Well thanks for all the advice.

Just to set things straight, I'm not interested in THE Church, I just like churches as places and buildings.

From the stuff I have read and experienced and discussed with people I do not feel that I am a down-and-out Christian as my beliefs and values do not always fit with theirs. At times they are diametrically opposed.

Its just a wave of feelings and sensations that I get when I get near churchs, hear hymns, or see a cross. And whilst the cross in Christianity may represent the crucifiction of Christ, for me it just again sort of stirs feelings that are hard to explain, a sense of familiarity and closeness.

I've read books on Wicca in most of its forms, druidry, general paganism, Christianity (I was even member of a Christian Union though more through interest than faith), shamanism and lots of other belief systems. Druidry is the closest that I've found so far that fits though even that doesnt seem to fit entirely.

I read somewhere that the Knights Templar or such orders sort of combined paganism and chrisitianity though finding reputable books that do not cost the earth seems hard.

Isn't faith and religion fascinating!

You're quite welcome.




Have you considered the possibility that you are a mason?




I think you’re going to have to start attending church. If you have an itch then scratch it. You may have been to church before but it's not the case that all churches are the same church, all Christians are the same Christian, or even that you are the same person from one month to the next.




Most of modern paganism is bollocks, frankly, as you may have discovered from your readings, but come back in a couple of hundred years and things may look more interesting. People will have quietened down a little by then, once they have got over the novelty of being able to believe anything they wish, returned their respect to tradition and have started taking history seriously once more. Things are just a mess at the moment.




The Knights Templar are a sideshow.




I think so.

93
This particular book deals with the very basics of asana,simple rituals such as banishing rituals etc.
I never once claimed that it would give a fast track to more advanced stuff.
It is advisable,obviously,to educate yourself in any tradition before jumping straight in.
Joining an order to gain the knowledge to advance is the only way to go.
93/93 93

i totally agree with you there Thelemite.

93
The thelemic greeting is "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"
The response is "Love is the Law,Love under will"
The number of both Love(Agape)and will (thelema)is 93 and so they are just shorthand for the full greeting and response.
93/93 93

Oh, I see. The advanced stuff.




I live in a community within the streets and avenues of which many visitors often find themselves lost. The best advice which a local may give when a lost visitor asks for directions is always prefaced with the apparently idiotic aphorism that they shouldn't start their journey from here.

93
Do you have a valid argument or even a worthwhile opinion on the subject or are you going to continue to post inane drivel?
93/93 93

Yes. See the post I made in this discussion at 09:50 today, 18th September. You may have missed it first time around as I tend to type with the number lock off.

Hiya PB,

Have you thought that possibly the buildings that you are drawn to are on older sites that now have churches on them and it's the older stuff that may be calling to you?

The cross thing for one was around long before the Christians adopted it as their symbol.
It was used in one form by druids to "represent the Thau, or god"

It was also the symbol of Tammuz

Britannica Concise Encyclopedia: Tammuz

Tammuz, Mesopotamian god of fertility. He was the son of Enki, god of water, and Duttur, a personification of the ewe. Worship of Tammuz was centered around two yearly festivals, one in the early spring in which his marriage to the goddess Inanna symbolized the fertilization of nature for the coming year, and one in summer when his death at the hands of demons was lamented. He is thought to be the precursor of several later deities associated with agriculture and fertility, including Ninsun, Damu, and Dumuzi-Abzu.

I also found this http://mystudies1.wordpress.com/2008/09/14...n-christianity/ for you to have a look at too.

Hope it all helps you in your search anyway and doesn't just confuse issues even more

The more economic view is that Paganboy has been raised in a traditionally Christian culture and has at some point imprinted upon the signs of that religion within our culture, the curiosity he now exhibits being part of a normal process of learning about that culture and his place within it.

My advice would be to read up (either in books or on the internet) on the different paths and the things that interest you in them. Learn about them and their backgrounds. With regards to Christianity it is not unnatural to feel some affinity with churches, etc., as they have been part of our culture for 1400 odd years.

Or, alternatively, make your own path. Experiment - see what works for you and what doesn't. I'm not a fan of pick and mix but that's just me - it doesn't do it for me. However, we can all give you lots of advice but ultimately it is down to you to find out whether something works for you or not. Don't worry about things not working as that is all part of the journey (and what makes it interesting).

There are many roads to explore. It's not a race and there are no time restrictions.

Good, sensible, solid advice Wulfric


PB, good luck on your journey, enjoy the scenery, it's a beautiful, big wide world out there

Barnx

More thoughts to ponder.

Well I don't think its as Fog says as whilst I may have lived in England all my life, Christianity has never played even a small part. Never been to church (apart from weddings and funerals), I was in the choir at school but thats just cos I liked to sing and even then we sung loads of other stuff than just hymns

Maybe it is something as people have said that its the place the church is that has meaning. Investigating this "cross" meaning I see as important as I don't think its necessarily Christianity related.

I have decided this weekend is a meditate weekend. Maybe things will become clearer.

Cheers,
Graeme

You've got to give the xians their due, they did know how to build good, impressive, inspiring, spiritual buildings.

That's very good advice from Wulfric.

I would add - try reading the Bible. I had lingering doubts for some years due to a patch in my teens when I attended confirmation classes and my local village church, which was a comforting place for an angsty teen. I read it cover to cover a few years ago and found it an interesting and astonishing experience. It made me see that without a doubt I am definitely not a Christian. It might do otherwise for others.

Also why not go and see a vicar or priest ? You don't have to tell them your Pagan leanings. Just ask them to give you an outline of their faith. Maybe attend a couple of different churches - Catholic, C of E or a Quaker meeting. See if any of it speaks to you. I don't think you have anything to fear or to lose by this.

Sensible advice there.

Hiya PB,

How's the search going? Have you had a chance to meditate or read any of the suggested matter?


Oh, and FP



It may well be a more economic view, from your standpoint, but that doesn't mean it is.

Good evening, Hyppydylan.



Far be it from me to disagree with anyone but I have offered the most economic view and so it likely obtains. Let me tell you why, that you may see that my posts aren't random strings of grammar. It’s the principle of parsimony, you see, which states that the most likely explanation is that which is the least complicated. Certainly my suggestion is a lot more parsimonious than your own suggestion.

This said, Hyppydylan, it's up to Paganboy28 to find his own way in the world. We may advise, as he may advise us, but we're just onlookers. I'm happy if he's happy.

LOL.


You are talking about Occam's Razor, a principle which is often missing from religion. Unfortunately.

Good morning, Wyrdwoman.



Yes, I am. I don’t want to pack too much buk-larnin’ into my posts or people might not enjoy reading them.

Indeed. However I find it amusing and somewhat ironic that you use so many words to describe something that could have been described in 2. After all, the principle states 'do not multiply entities needlessly'. Could words be entities?

Yes, words are entities but do not signify in this context. I accept what you say but I find it’s best to explain, even to ask questions, rather than to simply reference.

Guys.

Topic. Please stick to it.

We've found something that we absolutely agree with each other on.
I'm so pleased (and I say that in all happiness and without any nastiness or 'cuteness' intended in the slightest)

So PB,

How's it going?

Well...

I guess someone will say this should be in my blogs but since you asked.

I have had a bit of time (though not enough really) to contemplate such matters and discussing with my peers at work (2 of which are christians) I can, I think, safely say that I would not fit in with the christian crowd.

There are too many conflicts and things I cannot finalise or resolve in my head. At its core I can empathise with some of the christian beliefs and their ethical basis but then that is not something that is solely christian-based.

What I do know is that one of the only times I feel truely at peace with myself is when I am out in the woods or such in contact with the ground and environment. I admire churches in a sense that they are fabulous buildings and places for people of a like-mind to gather and join in discussion and collective worship. Whilst I do cherish my quiet moments and solitude, I cannot feel that collective worship is something that brings something else to the spirituality and religiousness of it all. Its not about conforming or getting a sense of validation but I feel that it is a healthy and fulfilling practice that can at times be lacking in some forms of paganism whereby groups are still secretive and withdrawn (for some reason).

My empathy with symbols and such I feel is deeper than purely a christian thing as I have a similar sort of feeling for other symbols as well as crosses and such. For some reason symbolism of all sorts sets of notions in my head that I do not fully understand.

But I must reiterate again, this has nothing to do with anything in my family currently as my dad is a very firm atheist, my mum is dead (so religion is out) and she was barely christian, my nan is about as religious as my family gets and she sings along to Song of Praise maybe at the weekends if she feels like it. Thats as far as it goes....

I also think that there is a certain atmosphere in churches that I pick up on and it again resonates a sense of well-being and comfort through me. I do not know why but this seems to happen no matter where the church or what it is. Maybe its the peace and serenity inherent in such places, or maybe its something about the place the churches are built on.

The thing with the robes and staffs again it just feels "right". I cannot explain it any further than that. Robes are very comfortable and when I put them on again its like putting on old comfy shoes, its like a home-coming. This again doesn't necessarily have to relate to christianity.

So in all, I think whilst I can see where I could fit christianity into my life or vice versa, I feel more comfortable at the moment as I am in my sort of limbo-ish state of neo-pagany druidic shamanity.

So there you have it.

Hmm. Churches, robes and staves all appeal to me, too. They get me into a more spiritual state of mind. I can sympathise with Jesus, but have little time for the people he hangs around with. Christianity as a religion is utterly incompatible with my beliefs, but the physical trappings do have a certain appeal.

What! Sackcloth and ashes are appealing?

No, no...the posh robes. The fancy ones, with hoods.

Ah!
You mean these ones?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...I7ADBS%26sa%3DN

Tsk!

I can see I am going to have to get a picture of me in my robes!