Ok, from what little useful information I can glean, Ceremonial High Magick is a combination of:

Christianity,
Judaism,
Islam,
Ancient Egyptian,
some Roman stuff,
and then all mixed with the asian theologies of buddism and such.

Now thats a confusing mix!

Also mentions things about Kabbalah however its spelt.


Without spending on books, are there any decent websites with information or books that I could get from the library that anyone suggests?

As always, go to http://www.sacred-texts.com/

You will drive yourself nuts trying to integrate all that! It is a huge area of research and information yet much of import is not open to casual enquiry.

Start with one form, maybe using a broad term like 'goetia' or 'Enochian' or even a Temple Order such as OTO and read the texts on that site, then do a google, read up on that area, take notes and save files and gradually research it until something finds resonance with you. Then take a different area such as Kabbalah and do the same. I do not suggest joining any group straight off as it will shape you before you have the information and can cost a bit anyway.

Best be eclectic until you get a pull or an idea of what interests you I think.
And if you do a bit more hunting around the 'net I can assure you that specific forums exist for discussion and enlightenment and you may gain membership if you show sincerity.

Useful website - www.ritualmagick.org

Google 'Golden Dawn' and 'OTO'. There are various factions within these.

Take a trip to London and visit Atlantis Bookshop on Museum Street, ask questions, browse books.

Go to your local library, get your hands on anything by Dion Fortune. If you're suffering from insomnia, then The Mystical Qabalah is a good cure.

Generally, to differentiate, the Jewish version is spelt Kabalah, and the Western Mystery Tradition is spelt Qabalah.

Save up your pennies and buy a copy of Crowley's 'Magick in Theory and Practice', I just found it for $10 on an American site, so probably cost you about £15 with p&p. (Go to www.bookbutler.co.uk or abebooks.co.uk)

Rhiannon

Magickal Athenaeum

Thelemapedia

Hermetics.org

Oh and don't take everthing Crowley wrote as gospel.

He wasn't the founder of CM but his name is synonimus with it. If your not carefull you can fall into a trap with CM that its very masculine, dogmatic and well...ritualised. This is partly true but remeber the cultual background to the system, the Victorian/Edwardian era of the Gentlman scientists, (just as the background of Chaos Magic was the punk/goth times of the late 70's early 80's).
CM dosen't have to be stuffy and dogmatic but like all systems it does have rules. Messing around with the Goetia or the Enochian Aythers will bring down some results so be ready for them, lean the LRBP and the Middle Pillar, they can ground and banish it things start to get too out of hand.
Heres a fact that gives CM a intresting perspective. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle the creator of Sherlock Holmes and psycic debunker was a member of the OTO.

A very good point, but I think Crowley remains a good starting point. Which reminds me I forgot to mention Francis King as an author to look out for.



Do you think there is any value in learning the Middle Pillar by rote, or do you think it worth having a basic understanding of the Qaballah first?

Rhiannon

If you wish to appreciate ceremonial magic - let alone engage in it - then you should really be fixed in your religious practices for more than several years. From what you’ve said on your other discussion it’s probably best that you leave it alone for the time being.

I dont have a lot to contribute to this thread except to ask "why ceremonial high magic?"

What exactly is it about it that appeals to you? Like Fog Patches, I've read your other thread about working out your path, and it feel to me like you are going things a wee bit arse about face (the wrong way round). Find the path and if that sort of magic is part of that path then great and if not...

Mind you I am one of those people who thinks all that High Magic stuff is a load of *coughs*

Bells and whistles, I have never understood why people need it. *shrugs*

93
Forget the golden dawn stuff.
Although there is no doubting its importance in the history of ceremonial magick things do move on.
In this aeon, the Christian/Judeo deities used in their rituals are not as effective today as they were in the last aeon.
It is much better to use thelemic deities in ritual nowadays.
93/93 93

Use?

Aye "Use" thats one of the major diffrences between CM and Wicca the manner in which the gods are adressed.

Hmmm Middle Pillar and Kaballa? Good question Rhiannon, A decent source of information will explain the Kabbalist aspects of the Middle Pillar as your learn it.

The Kaballa (Quaballa I don't care how its spelt and I don't give a stuff about how Majic/Magic/Magick is spelt either) Is one of the buldling blocks of CM if you don't have a understanding of the tree of life then you won't get very far

Perhaps that’s how it is presented. I understand that there are quite some numbers of people parading themselves as ceremonial magicians. Gods, however, are not a technology.

Can you just clarify that statment Fog Patches please?

Fog patches. i live with a cerimonial magician. i can tell you the gods get ordered around alot in this house. they drink rather alot of absinthe as well.

he is also friends with alot of other CM's and i can tell you they all deal with the gods as well. maybe the watered down pretend CM's are too afraid to deal with the gods

Oh, hi there. I'd reply at length but I'm in the middle of some meticulous bargaining with my kettle.

nice to see another that thinks its fun to mock CM's. fog patches you obviously dont understand CM or you would post something worthwhile instead of snide comments. good luck with your kettle you might need it

Surely, otherwise I would be locked in negotiations with one of my pans, and we all know how intransigent pans can be. By the time I’d had my hot chocolate it would be time to get up and have my corn flakes.

Those milk bottles can be right bitches first thing in the morning.

i was trying to help Pagan boy with his thoughts on CM. i wont be drawn into anything with you Fog patches. if PB needs any information i suggest he contact us directly. (for the record im an ecelctic witch)

this is a board for adults with adult views on a number of subjects. i feel this conversation is beyond that so i will leave this conversation.

Me too.

funny thing is, Cerimonal magic is given such a bad rap with so many people saying stay away until you know what your doing. this is rubbish. anything needs to be read up on first. Pagan boy asked for some reads on this not to be told to stay away.

i think personally he has done the right thing and asked for an insight instead of blowing it away.

Paganboy if you want more information John Odin and i have groaning shelves with relevant books. i suggest you PM either of us and we can try and give you the information you need. also Rhiannon and jape had good references as well.

hope this helps

MOD HAT ON (And because I'm still giggling over the memory of a Vodou ceremony last night where I got to meet Brav Gede in possession, it's a big black top hat.)

I and the other mods are not going to allow this topic to descend into facile name calling and sarcastic asides. Paganboy 28 has a very valid question in his opening post - please stick to answering it. Stay on topic and stay civil, please.

*Laughs loudly* Yup my drinks cabinet is never complete without a bottle of absinthe scurried away in the back, and I've become rather partial to a nip or two myself as a result.

On a serious note Pagan Boy, I know you said that you didn't want to fork out for book but I would thoroughly reccomend trying at least to get the following on inter-library loan.

"Techniques of High Magic" by Skinner and King, which is an excellent step by step guide to learning and practising Ceremonial Magic with a solitary bent, it is packed full of achievable exercises, some of which could carry over into daily solitary practise even if you decide that CM isn't your thing.

and

"High Magic" by Frater U.'.D.'., again an execellent source book, it approaches the concept of Ritual/Ceremonial magic in a different way to the above, where as Skinner and King try and provide a sort of Curriculum text book with a systemic approach, Frater U.'.D.'.'s is more sort of "here is a tool kit" type approach.

Both of the above are more digestible than some of the older and more high brow tomes out there written by the likes of Crowley and Regardie. Lol my first book on CM was Regardies "The Tree of Life" and had I not been such a cantankerous old cow I suspect it could have put me off CM for life, I would never want to inflict the brain squelching ooze that reading it caused on any one, I swear Regardie swallowed a dictionary and then attempted to use every word in it in each paragraph, the guy was seriously verbose. So I would firmly suggest you start modern and work your way back to the fore fathers if and when you get more interested.

Paganboy, I think that Xalle's question is an important one for you in determining whether reading books about ceremonial magic will be a productive pursuit for you - why are you interested in ceremonial magic?