Gods and goddesses is the thing I struggle with most. I was brought up a Christian and so am allergic to the concept of god being an all seeing and powerful bearded man in a big chair. So when I read up on Pagan deities I can't seem to grasp it, as they are normally referred to as hes or shes.

Are they really like us but 'with special powers' or are they just simply energy types that have been given human personas for us to understand them better? What do you think? Sorry if this is crudly written but I am not very good at getting across what I mean. I hope this makes sense.

Ta
MissCheeva

crikey. what is a god....

i see gods as falling inot one of three categories. oh and apologies if some of it seems a bit nebulous, not too easy to find the words to describe some of this.

1. Primal Gods - sea, sky, volcano, weather phenomenon etc. i think in these cases its humans who have 'imprinted' a persona of sorts onto and existing 'energy'.

2. Ancestral - literally the mighty dead. there is evidence to suggest that neolithic man practiced a form of ancestor worship, still happens today in some cultures, and from this evolved a polytheistic worldview. it would seem that ancestors who were revered or worshipped might have been focussed on for one reason or another - say for instacnes they were an awesome hunter or a good healer. over time these form thier own tribal pantheon on a small or larger geographical scale. accounts for the big variation in local tribal deities in iron age europe.

3. Genus Loci - spirits of place. like the first one, a bit like the second too. these ones tend to be centred about a place - such as Sulis was at bath. again imprints on the energy of the place or an ancestors closely associated with it.

hope that is of *some* help

lee

*Sneaks in giggling*

Personally, I think that gods are manifestations of energy.

These two comments by AL I completely agree with



and



I dont think Gods exist. I do believe that everything has energy and all energies can be manipulated and sometimes to do that, we need to give it a form we can connect with. Hence Gods.

Just my tuppenceworth.

You may be right Xalle, but they don't think so

Oooh, it's all going to kick off!

The same thing used to be said when volcanoes erupted.

Well, I don't agree with the 'turning primal things' into gods bit, such as personalising volcanos. But then, the gods I've met are all complex personalities, not some walking volcano with no other character! And their abilities - beyond ours - differ, as well, from god to god.

And the genuis locii I've encountered are all different - it's not one type of character.

But people did do that.

Volcanoe erupted, people said, "the gods are angry".

Tidal wave and people said "we didnt respect/honour the gods properly".

Im just saying.... dont shoot me!

Well, absolutely. You still see it today - whenever something happens, people say "Why?" and try to assign reasons.

After traqedy hits, people try to take some sort of action " to make sure this never happens again/other people don't suffer the way I/we have."

But I don't see allocating cause, or attempting to alleviate it, as confusing cause with the personality of a god.

Hmm.. let me try that again. I can see that people in a Christian culture can confuse the two, because the Abrahamic faiths claim that their god is all powerful, does everything and sees everything. Therefore, nothing happens unless he's caused it, no? "No sparrow falls..." and all that.

For a polytheist it's not the same. And not the same again for a post-Abrahamic polytheist. Yeah, we're human, so we all do the "what I/we do to deserve this??" bit. But your modern polytheist is likely to shrug and say "Shit happens". It doesn't mean any particular god has created it.

True and I didnt mean to imply that.

*thinks for a moment*

Gods are honoured. All of them. There is a reason for that. There is a belief that they have an effect on the world of the believer. Be that effect making it rain or not, or making your magick work, or just being there to be a "friend" through life.

They are honoured because (as far as I can work out) people believe that if they are not, there will be negative influence, or even non-positive (if that makes sense?) influence over their lives, in other words, wont help when you need/want it. Im not that sure that I see there is that great a difference in the two.

Hmm. I don't know people like that, so I can't offer much about that line of thought.

The people I know have relationships more akin to family/friendship stuff with gods. Yeah, they're different, and sometimes they try to order one around. No - sometimes they do order one around. But whether I or anyone I know goes along with that from some god they know well (we don't do it for strangers!) it's because of the nature of the relationship - it's built on trust. When my patron abandons his normal laid-back persona and goes into 'sergeant major' mode I've learned to listen, because ignoring him usually means I'm liable to run into mundane - or spiritual - trouble. Not grief from him, but something I'll need to spend time stitching together when, if I'd listened to him, I wouldn't have had that heartache.

Another one is just simply... um...seductive. Charm isn't in it. He makes people get a buzz out of doing insane things for him.

I don't feel threatened by any of them, in the sense that "if I don't do this they'll punish me for it." Any more than I would have a relationship with a human being on that basis: that's abuse. And the same thing applies to the human friends I know who are polytheists.

Yeah, sometimes I ask for something and no one offers to help. Other times one of them gives me something great, out of the blue. But that's like ordinary relationships. Not blackmail, or fear. so can't really help there, hun.

Thanks for that Moonhunter, that sums my own experiences up rather nicely.

Thanks to Ancestral_lee for the explanation and to Xalle and Moonhunter for your frankness. I am glad I asked as for once something that AL said has hit a cord. I didn't really understand about the Genus Loci and it does make sense - the times I have been to a place and felt touched in some way.

The explanation of the ancestral and the primal gods also sits comfortably at the moment (I need to ponder it). I will still see how this thread goes and if anyone else has anything to add, but I have enough to be going on with now. This thinking malarkey is hard work

I guess I am releived that you didn't all come back and say "No they are individual persons and they have beards and sit in big chairs governing over us".

So, what purpose do the gods have for you or s that a rude question?

And how do you account for those, like me that have no belief in gods and are affected in no way by the lack thereof?

Sorry that sounded like a demanding essay quesion, I didn't mean it like that, I mean... well... I suppose I mean, why gods? For what purpose/

Xalle can I ask a quick question. If you don't beleive in gods then how do you do spell casting. Most of the advice I have found on spells involve invoking or honouring a god of some sort. Is this not the case for a hedge witch? Sorry to be naive.
MissCheeva

I'll take a stab at both of those.

For me gods and in particular the god I deal with directly, have no 'purpose'. I didn't choose him, I got on by for donkeys not so much as acknowledging him and if I'm honest still pay no more than lip service unless I get a timely shove.

Before I got the nudge I'd have agreed with you on every count, the whole concept of gods was a complete mystery to me but when one shows up that's kind of that. You can try for years to ignore it or rationalise it, I did!, but in the end it's simpler just to accept it. I'm not getting into a whole 'they chose me and didn't choose you nyah nyah nyah' thing with that, with or without gods works equally well as far as I can tell. It's just like... ahhhh we're friends right?, as much as two folk who've never met can be, but I don't serve any 'purpose' for you or you me, but as we like each other and you can be a enlightening person to be around, I like having you around. Same with ole bossy boots up there.

As I began doing magical stuff godless, I continue to do so unless I really, really need to involve him. I love him to bits, don't get me wrong but I don't want to rely on him - that's not really me.

purpose. hmm... they add a new dimension to my experience and perception of my life and the world round me. in some cases i learn something new about myself and the world around me. some guide, some protect, some teach, some show me a hole new way of seeing things.

i could probably get by without them and lead a whole and happy life. however i think it is in my very being to want to have them included.

as to people like you Xalle, not sure. i would hazard a guess that you perceive the world and interact with it in a different way, probably only subtly different. i would need to know more about what you do believe etc to give a fuller answer and 'compare' us.

from an anthropomorphic point of view i can see why people would want to placate those types of gods. however i dont think you alwasy can, in fact probably never.

because thats what they are, their very being is to do things which kill. they arent there to serve or respect us - sometimes they can and will - but thier essence and nature is to do what comes naturally. we are small warm mammals scuttling about. why should they give us more than mere passing interest.

ancestral gods and spirits of place however tend to have a closer connection, more so because we can build up more of a relationship with them.

Moon Esk and Lee,

Those are all very interesting responses. I think I get what you are driving at. Do you mean that, a god came along, much like, well anyone, and said something like "hello... you look interesting, lets be friends"?

I can kinda understand that concept. For example, we are friends Esk. Generally our friendship comes in the form of chatting and sharing our lives and I suppose, support and advice. So basicly they are another entity, like Wights or something and God is just s title?

MissCheeva,

Allow me to quote a favourite author of mine, magic is just about finding the place where everything is balanced and pushing...

I see that balancing point being refered to as the energy needed to make the spell work. Thats the crux of all magick for me really. All spells, workings, "borrowings" (as was discussed on here ages ago) working with spirits, everything comes from energy. Everything has energy. All energy can be manipulated, combined and changed. I find I can do that. Dont get me wrong Im not an expert at all of the above! but thats where it comes from for me. I hope that makes sense.

ancestral ones no, they would have had a longer evolution with the people.

Primal ones... dont know. sudden 'revealings' of gods arent unheard of in world religions. i simply dont know. maybe humans did the appealing and effort making to foster a relationship - probably for selfish reasons " no more rain please" "calm seas please, we need to go fishing"

Did they *simply* not just Manipulate them They are *just* energies after all

They are both energy and persons - just as we are (at least that's how I see them). We are just bundles of energy whose particles are vibrating up or down, after all matter is just condensed energy if you like. All things are connected at the quantum level and have an effect on everything else.

As to relationships with them, yep - just like friends or family. The word "god" is only title and in Old Norse literature they've also been called wights so it's just a matter of personal emphasis I suppose and also personal interpretation.

The Abrahamic view of deity has coloured how most western people view deities but that's not the only view - look at the shinto deities for example. They are not all-powerful, all-knowing - the Abrahamic god got ideas above his station

Asking a pagan forum what they think gods are is gong to get you a multitude of answers!!

The following is my opinion only and it can be taken with the odd bucket of salt or not. Bear in mind that, as an atheist, I am not just allergic to gods, I absolutely do not believe in their existence.

However, there must be a reason why people anthropomorphised natural occurances. As Xalle stated, people saw a volcano blow up and, not knowing much about physical mechanics, assumed there was something in there. Not necessarily a god, but something. Over the millenia though it did become a 'person', as anyone who has met a crazy cat lady will know that we anthropomorphise things like mad. God was made in mans image!

Now we know a lot more about volcanos and earthquakes, but the Abrahamic god was not just concerned with the physical world. He was also concerned with the emotional, moral and supernatural world too. As Christianity is still the largest religion on the planet in its many guises, however well people understand what causes natural phenomena, they still believe they are ultimately caused by God's wrath. I wonder how many pagans believe that.

My personal belief is that the forces on this planet were just too much for humans to understand without putting a face in them. So 'love' became a love goddess (take your pick - there are 100s!), conflict became a war god, and so on. I still believe in the forces, I just don't think it is right to anthropomorphise them. It seems that we are trying to 'control' planetary (and sometimes universal) forces by constraining them into human guises.

I get exactly where you are coming from WW.

Doesn't add much to the discussion I know but sometimes its nice to know others share your POV's

i wouldnt say it is our way of controlling them - i would say it is our way of interacting with them, we are simple beast and to anthropomorphise is to bring it into a context we can relate to.

I would say that amounts to much the same thing. I would no more (or less) wish to communicate with love or war than I would with a cloud or the wind. A force of nature is a force of nature, whether or not it is tangible.

I personally do not believe humans are simple. I believe we have got into the habit of giving forces a human face and that it is easier to stay there than to sit down and think 'is this force really best served by making it into a grumpy old man?' the mere fact that there are so many gods means that humans are very complicated indeed!

I go with Xalle & WW as well...

Nature is nature, we're part of it, it's in us and all around us so why bother with 'faces/ identities'.

So deities - Energy Or Persons? I say energy

Barnx

I agree, especially because I sometimes suspect I spout nonsense only I understand.

More or less. Though sometimes it's like some stranger walking into your life and you end up smitten.



That's pretty much it. When they're around life is a bit more exciting. Like Crow at the Vodou event recently - they can liven things up! Or it can be a conversation about something in my life that's worrying me; or it can be a nudge - look at this: you need to think about it. More usually it's just the pure pleasure of their company - they're like friends who never outstay their welcome, are never boring, whose demands are directly related to something in my own life, and who can occasionally give some very enlightening information it's impossible to get elsewhere.

Apart from that - no, they have no purpose. But neither do I.

I am glad to know that not beleiveing in a god is OK. I think the reason I stopped thinking about paganism (and had time out on the forum for so long) was that I felt I had to believe as alot of what I read talked about honouring gods and so on.

I do beleive in a higher power but for me it is more that we are all made from energy.

Many thanks to everyone that answered. Even if I don't beleive in a god it helps me to understand others that do. It does make sense what they say but it just isn't for me.

MissCheeva

God looked Boab in the eye. He seemed upset.
- Jist hud oan a minute, pal. Lit's git one thing straight. Every f****n time ah come doon here, some wide-o pills ays up abooy what ah should n shouldnae be f*ckin daen. Either that or ah huv tae enter intae some philosphical f*ckin discourse wi some wee undergraduate twat aboot the nature ay masel, the extent y ma omnipotence n aw that shite. Ah'm gittin a wee bit fed up wi aw this self-justification; it's no for yous c*nts tae criticise me. Ah made yous c*nts in ma ain image. Yous git oan wit it, yous f*ckin well sort it oot. That c*nt Nietzsche was wid ay the mark hin he sais ah wis deid. Ah'm no deid; ah jist dinnae gie a f*ck. It's nae fir me tae sort every c*nts problems oot. Nae other c*nt gies a f*ck so how should ah? Eh?

excerpt from THE GRANTON STAR CAUSE by Irvine Welsh.

Ach Jape - ah couldnae hae pit it better masel' son! Weel said the Big Man!

(Ah could WEEL relate tae His degrees o' scunneredness an' aw! )

I'll have to go with them being 'people', though they aren't eve close to being human. They are energy in the way that we are energy (we are, after all just a few volts of current and weak magnetic field contained within a spongey, self-propelled, rechargeable battery) but that doesn't preclude sentience.
I've been finding it very difficult to communicate with them lately, so I'd prefer if they physically manifested themselves in my house so we could chat the easy way, but there you go...

To me they are more than personifications of energy, they are a part of the energy that makes the world like we are but the are bigger, more all emcompasing. They have their own thoughts, feelings, opinions just like people, but they are also more powerful, maybe more evolved in many ways but not that distantly removed from us that they don't understand us.

They are immersed in the energy in a way that makes them more powerful, have more oomph than us. They know how when to act and how best to apply energy in how they act.

But that could be down the to the confidence they have in themselves as well as the wisdom/knowledge in how to apply it best.

When was the last time you saw a diety of any sort go ummm how should I do it? Ummm, ahhh, Errrrr, did that work?

*physically hurts laughing*

Just on side note, once I catch my breath, the Romans apparently looked down on the Celts for not putting their gods in human form but depicting them as animals and such. think there might be an interesting divide between those culture who did depict gods as human entities and those who did not put them into solid form - and then those with semi-human forms such as Hinduism and Africa.

my understanding and for the record i do believe in gods, however i dont believe that they have any need for submition or ritual worship or any strict adherance they just want to be remembered and are there when we need them.

I firstly see them as archetypes and things to aspire to, to invoke their qualities with in you. I also see them as sprite beings that are the representative or avatar of a specific physical force or object with in nature like a god or goddess who embodies the wind or the sea or the sun. They are the balance and un seen force that holds reality together altho i dont belive they influence reality unless really nessesary then they awaken a representative within humanity to become enlightened and godlike.

It is my understanding that the ancients and primal gods were the elements like the rain or the sun the winter the forest the sky the moon and then these became anthropomorphous in to human like forms for us to relate better to them. Whether they have any personal form is their secret and one they have a right to keep hidden. It is my opinion that they are in many ways like us in what ever way they embody them selves. So saying that neither is above or below the other .

In Tibetan Buddhism there are 6 main realms in Samsara. They are:
The God Realm..... Pride.
The Demi-gods......Jelousy
Human Realm........Desire
Animal Realm.........Ignorance
Ghost realm...........Greed
Hell Realms............Anger
(think thats right?? )

Anyway, according to Buddhism, you can be born into any of these realms. Even being a god is possible. But all the samsaric realms are subject to impermanence...
... so being a god, or a ghost, or being in hell doesn't last forever.

The best rebirth is in the human realm. It has the right balance of pleasure and suffering and choice... A human can engage in spiritual practice, developing wisdom and compassion and so escape the wheel of suffering (samsara), and attain Enlightenment.

Edit: In the picture i've attached, the Deva and Asura realms (gods and demi-gods) have been merged. These two realms are sometimes depicted in this way. By the way, the gods and the demi-gods are always fighting. The asuras are gods too but feel cheated and jeleous of the devas.... they always fight the gods, but are always defeated (poor old demi-gods!).

I missed this thread at the time.
I tend to anthropomorphise probably because it's easier that way. Personally i think that the god/ess is simply an energy, perhaps even with a form, exactly the same as us and hampsters and aardvaaks. With regard to people's beliefs or not, i have always got the feeling that it's a bit like friends or dogs. If you want you can have one and you get the one you think you want, if you don't want one he/she won't bother you. Hence things not changing for people with no belief and things often getting better with those that have belief and also hence that if you want a cruel demanding god you get one and if you want a nice friendly giving god you get one of those too. A bit like life really you get out what you put in. Pretty simplistic i agree but shit it works fantastically for me. If you start feeling that you need to sacrifice your pet dog to them to get that extra euro in your wage packet or find the love of your life then probably that is what the gods will start to exact from you. I think if they are there for a reason, they are there to maintain balance both for good and of course for bad.
I'm a goddess person, i cannot for the life of me feel the male part that is supposed to be there but i can't feel i'm lacking anything. If i need one i'm sure he'll appear. I think that like in life if you treat your friends/gods well you get valid friendship back. If you try to be pushy, aloof or subservient you get shat on. I don't thing gods have a job description. Probably they just are like stones and xylophones and stella's sea cows - just there doing their own thing and being friendly or otherwise to those that want/need them. Gods of ants or ardvaarks wil follow the ways of ants and ardvaakrks.

Ya think?

*cough* placebo effect *cough*

I have no gods. There is bugger all wrong with my life that I cant change for myself. I dont need a god to help me do, get through, cope with, address, understand or improve anything and I think if people took a little more responsibility themselves for the state their lives were in, instead of depending on "something else" to assist, be a shoulder to cry on, take responsibility, "help them through", they would be a lot happier and a damn sight more grounded. This is by no means a pop at everyone with gods. Woozle you said it yourself. You get out what you put in. If you put your time and effort into a god, you get something out of it. If you put that same energy into your life, you would equally, get something out of it.

I'm not criticising those with gods, this is relevant to the OP. Is it gods, or is it what you indend? How you direct your energy?

No i didn't mean better in a material sense. Life can be tough with no friends but if you have a good friend things are often better. Same with gods i think.
It's true, you get out what you put in but that doesn't mean you have to work at it. Just be friendly . Personally i put everything i have into life and and get more than my fair share back and imo the goddess adds the flavour. It's not a hard relationship at all. The gods imo are just there and everything would be totally normal without them. I do not use her as a crutch. As i said the whole thing turns over anyway gods or no. But i firmly believe you get the gods you deserve. Sometimes, reading some of the stuff on here and elsewhere about people's relationships with their gods (from what i've seen more heathen than witchy though), i really do believe that no gods are sometimes preferable. Why complicate your life with a nasty, demanding, vindictive god? I can't seem to get my head round this the gods choose us business and you just have to get on with it. You are a case in point. With your magical abilities, if you had had an interest, the gods would i'm sure have chosen you but they didn't. As far as i can see you and i are just the same. We get on with life without worrying about the gods. The difference is though that there is a god in my life and not in yours but there it ends. You may prefer material friends, for me sometimes the goddess is enough (sometimes not though). I just see it like friendship. Tell your friend to bog off and they do.
Sorry if this is a bit garbled, it was a long night.

I'd love to agree, because what you said sounds lovely and reasonable ... but, IME, not true.

I didn't pick my gods. The ones I might have chosen either never talked to me, or do so only in passing. As for not being bothered if you don't want to be - well, it's possible to entirely ignore them, if one is sufficiently determined, but I don't think anyone can conjure a relationship with a specific god for the asking. They seem to do the choosing.



Heh. My patron is just about the most laid back god I know - most of the time. And then he gives an order and, boy, had I better follow through. So is that cruel and demanding and nice friendly and giving?

Gods aren't always so easily categorised. They have personalities as complex as ours.

As to the getting better or not - almost as soon as I became pagan I had a seriously bad experience, which went on for ten months. OK, my gods helped me during it, to some extent. But, at the time, I felt they could have done a lot more. A lot more. But they weren't around simply to help me out of a sticky situation I'd got myself into. And they seemed more interested in whether I could get through it with honour, nerve intact. That's when they got seriously interested.



I'd say you're likely to get shat on if you don't stand up for yourself. Or if you try to cheat them, or use them.

See this is the bit about gods that I dont get. No.. wait this is a different topic. Off to start one.

yeah, pursued it elsewhere, on the new topic.

Actually, he's not so different - a lot of them do the 'mentor' bit. Ask Pomona about Pomona, if you see what I mean. But I'll take that to the other thread.