Hi everyone,

you will soon all get to know me as master of the stupid question for which I apologise, so I thought I'd ask a few in one post and not take up to much bandwidth .

So this is where I'm coming from first: Not too sure of my position in all this but I'm pretty sure I'm ready to leave christianity behind, there is too much that grates on me (treatment and attitudes towards women, sexuality and homosexuals for a start and then there is the real history of it all too) but I'm here looking for a path to follow, just not sure which one yet.

I did read however that it is possible to do magick without nessesarly "signing up" to a belief system as witchcraft is just that - a craft. So I would perhaps like to try doing some workings and I have my neat new book "The solitary Witch" (ravenwolf) to get started with.

That all said here are the dumb questions.

1) Can people give me some personal examples of magick they have done actually working. Call me sceptical if you like but I want something a bit more than just the book telling me "Do it! it works!".

2) Does it mean becuase I am sceptical a bit (don't get me wrong I don't want to disprove anything) that it won't work?

3)Any recommedations about what I should do first? Or should I leave magick and do something else before attempting it?

4) Anyother points you wise people may care to throw in.

Sorry this is a lot to ask but you all seem very knowlagable and sincere from my experences so far and I am on a bit of a knife edge on where I am going next,

Thanks

Magic isn't compulsory within a pagan lifestyle. Is it paganism or magic you're drawn to?

I'm afraid I'm not going to give you blow by blow accounts of how I work, that's personal and not for discussion on an openly browsable forum. I believe what I do works, but I don't do it often. Magic is not based on the practioners belief but if you're very sceptical it's hard to see how you would get the focus together.

In all honesty, magic is not something you try on to see how it fits and is something that requires a person to explore themselves first before beginning to explore magic itself, in my opinion anyway.

Also, is it Christ you've fallen out with or Christianity? If it's all the structure and dogma surrounding your religion that you're disaffected with rather than the central figure and tenets themselves, perhaps you simply need to approach Christ in a pagan way? Get to know him, what he stood for and relate to him directly. Live the way he guides you to live as a result and leave 2000 years of power trips and misinformation behind.

Good luck with your search.

Fair enough, I wasn't meaning to pry What I was after was just a generic "I did a spell and such and such happened just like, or close to like, I wanted. Thats good enough "Proof" for me.

I'm not totaly sceptical, that is the wrong word (I mean, I am here after all)

Also the misinformation in my opinion is important because there is much evidence to suggest that Christ was not at all devine and simply human, a great man sure, but human nontheless. All the Divinity was knocked together about 400 years later as a way of stopping the Roman Empire imploding.

So I guess to answer the question it is pagansm I'm drawn to, my problem is finding out where I fit and what to do.

Hope that clears up where I stand a bit better, I am notorious for being vauge

For me it is a very personal thing, there is not a set of rituals I follow, If someone needs help I just set about believing that they will get the help they need.

You need to have a good look inside your self to find what you believe in, for me it's family for others it's God and for some it could be science. Once you have that belief then you can call on it to help others out.

I wont lie for me it was hard to find, for a long time I was lost, it wasn't until my grandmother past away that I really made me understand how much family really meant, from that day on I believe in its strength and I still call on the help of my grandmother every now and then just to guide people and keep them safe.

I hope you enjoy the journey you have started.

Esk's absolutely spot on

I'd recommend investigating more about the natural world and how it operates on a more supernatural level. That will help you start formulating your ideas as to things like deity, spirit, and from that your interest towards magick. Don't forget that magick operates supernaturally, ie, not something you can academically study and then practise, it comes from somewhere "within" and only when you've considered your place in the world and everything in it, can you really form any opinion as to whether or not you want to pursue magick.

And yes, intent and belief is the whole thrust behind magick working - without that, you're sunk.

Don't rush to find "a path" - it's quite all right to just "be Pagan"

Why ARE you drawn to Paganism, as opposed to any other belief system?

I agree wholeheartedly with Esk and Pomona.

Like Esk, I work rarely, and the work I do is very intensive and can be exhausting. If you look around elsewhere on UKP (try other posts in this forum, for example) you'll probably find threads where people are willing to share a bit about what they do/have done.

I find the more concentration and focus that is put into something, the more likely it is to succeed. But there are some simple 'rules' which don't (AFAIK) get put into the books, such as proportionality and wyrd/current. Proportionality simply means there are some things magic will not achieve, because it would take too much effort by too many people. An example might be world peace. Wyrd/current is that magic works better if you're working with the flow of events/personalities etc than against it.

There are other 'rules' but I can't recall them all. Two which come to mind might be expressed by an ol adage 'as above, so below' and 'don't use magic if you can accomplish what you want by other means'. Oh, and then there's ... nope, that one's slipped my mind.

I don't do much magic because (1) I don't usually (these days) do something for myself; I'm more likely to do something for someone else, if I'm asked, (2) magic is an incidental, and not something that isn't central to my life as a pagan, so I'd rather spend my time on the things which are. Oh, and (3), it takes a hel of a lot of time, effort and preparation to do most of the stuff I do. Whatever the books say, five minute magic doesn't produce much - IME anyway. YMMV.

Did you come into paganism for the magic? Or (I think someone else has asked this) do you believe that, if you're pagan, then magic is part of that?

Oh, and there almost as many forms of magic as there are pagans. And as many different forms of working - some work purely with their own effort, whatever they believe; some work by using spiritual beings of one sort of another; some work in partnership with spiritual beings, of one sort or another.

Hi, lots of good advice here especially regarding finding a path, but there is nothing wrong with me throwing another tuppenceworth into the pot, espcially as I am one of those "witches" with no other path other than the craft itself.



Yus, can give you lots of examples ranging from small glamours and protections to hexes, banishings of people and things... silly things like my youngest sister wanting to work with specific people and not wanting to work with others and ensuring that happened... working with weather, there are lots and lots of examples.



There is a little debate about this. I personally think it would be very hard to have a successful working if you dont believe or want completely what you are trying to achive. Huge focus is required, getting a spell to work is like catching cobwebs. It takes a lot of effort and patience and belief in what you are doing. You know that whole thing when you are doing something really really delicate and you think... I musnt drop/loose/ this and because you think that you do? Spell work is much the same. Nothing else, no other thought or doubt can enter your head when you are doing it or it'll all go tits up!



I've never understood this sort of question. Magick isnt something you just "give a go" to. It is not something to play with. It sounds fun, but it isnt, it takes time and effort, you dont just "give it a whirl". There needs to be a reason to do magick and usually, it is a last resort, especially if you aren't a natural at it. Before doing any magick my advice would be, ask yourself why you want to do it, for what purpose?



Yeah. Serious magick isnt for everyone. Most can fiddle a protection or a banishing, but in the same way you dont just pick up a gun and start randomly trying to work out how to make it work, you dont just decide that working a few spells might pass a little time.

Not having a go, just being blunt and honest.

Who is it with the tagline: "There are no stupid questions, only stupid people?"

There are stupid questions, but you haven't asked any



First thing most xians say when they leave the church: "I'm looking for a path to follow". You want to be good at magic - you don't follow anyone. Put your best foot forward and watch out for booby-traps lol Now you've freed yourself of doctrine don't go replacing one religion with another. The world is a far more interesting place when you take the goggles off



Mmm. To start talking modern-day magic without indoctrination, check out Chaos. A good practical introduction - go HERE and start with Oven Ready Chaos (bypassing the historical gumph) and follow it up with Aspects of Evocation. If you have a go at Sigils and Servitors you'll know whether it's your kettle of fish and whether you believe in it. Umming and aahing about whether to cast a circle is all nice and well, but magic is there to be done - put it to the test and then, once you've decided whether it's 'real', start thinking about where you want to take it. No point spending the first three years wondering whether you're chasing fairies through Narnia

I've never read Ravenwolf but I'm assuming it's gumph - anything unimaginative enough to string two totem animals together and on wholesale in Waterstones must be, at the least, questionable...

You're looking for the 'constants' - the stuff behind the sparkle; things you find all over the world. Concepts and ideas that ring true from Africa to China, Australia to Siberia, the Middle East to John Dee.

Shamanism is good reading material - someone like Mike Harner's Way of the Shaman and Roger N. Walsh's Spirit of Shamanism.



Do it. It works.



In the time you took to ask that, you could have put it to the test

Go check out Hine and get back to us. Roll your shoulders, take a deep breath and enjoy. Don't be afraid of not knowing, most of us don't most of the time.

So, as you can see, not dumb questions at all. There is an old adage that goes something along the lines of 'the only stupid question is the one you don't ask because you're afraid it is a stupid question to ask'. You never know, you may be asking the question several people have been too afraid to ask.

What path? Ultimately I'd have to say that the path you choose will always be your own path. Even if you follow a well documented path... following all the aspects of that path as taught, you will still bring your own interpretation and personal application to that path or it just won't work for you.

Magic... I think the first thing you might ask yourself is why you want to work magic. I'll not talk about 'magical ethics'. That is another 'personal perspective' issue. But, as has been indicated by others, magic working takes effort. You get out what you put in (and the proportions are not necessarily what you might consider to be equal). If your reasons for working are fickle then chances are you'd be better off using mundane means. In fact, mundane means are the first port of call before magical working for most who might call upon magic at some point or other.

I use shamanic journeying.... generally to heal, sometimes to protect. Generally it is possible to come up with some convoluted mundane reason why the effects of my workings were apparent. Maybe those mundane reasons are right. Maybe they are right, but the nudging just helped things along. Personally I don't really care if the effects ARE apparent. Call me a fool using superstitious nonsense if you will. The results are what I worked for, not to convince people.

I've used other forms of magic too. Ritual bindings to prevent harm in abusive situations, shieldings when there was something more spiritually oppressive going on. They worked. :shrugs: Maybe the world chose to shift a little to cause change regardless of my efforts.

BB

Mike

As everyone says, you don't need to do magic (or magick) to be a pagan.
I suggest you get hold of Marian Green's Book "A Witch Alone". There are a couple of exercises in it which are helpful, and lots of good advice. But read it through, first. It's not for everyone.

You also don't need to be pagan to do magic

As far as I know, there's very little evidence to suggest that Jesus Christ actually exsisted at all...

If you are going to do some magic, make sure it's something worth the effort. If you don't really give a toss if it works, it probably won't. That doesn't mean going for something big and flashy, just something that comes from the heart. And don't be scared.

That's good advice from Gawain.

Thanks for the replies,

bit of a can of worms all that actually. Now I understand the term "ignorance is bliss" cos I have a real headache now, but at least it is a better informed one.

Ok I guess I'll leave magic alone until I have my core beliefs worked out, or at least more secure. I don't want to upset the universal tulip cart!

Many thanks again for your time and advice

Dray

Hello Draylath.






Your questions are stupid by virtue of the stupid premise from which you begin. This isn’t to say that you are stupid - I am not saying that - the times, now they are stupid. Religion is nowadays looked at as a lifestyle choice, a complete suite of assumptions and social representations into which a person may buy, to take them from the unhappy hole in which they find themselves to that sunny, airy place beloved of advertisers where everyone smiles and their partner always agrees with them.

First, religion isn’t necessary to a fulfilling life. Second, if you have a religion but disapprove of some of the things which people say then recognise that they don’t speak for everyone in your religion - for example, yourself. Third, if you feel there are good things in your religion then fix on them and live them - as Mr Arlen said, accentuate the positive. Fourth, there are morons and misanthropes in every religion and you're just as likely to find people you disagree with among pagans as among Christians.

You wish to be a magician? Be religious. For a long time and seriously. People disagree with me on this point but it’s quite traditional and, as with everything in life, if you wish to do something extraordinary - say, go to the moon - then you should expect to put in a lot of hours completing lots of apparently unrelated study into all sorts of things. Religion is to magic as mathematics is to engineering. It’s a simplistic analogy - I wouldn’t want you to ignore actual mathematics, for example - but I feel it works.

It’s been demonstrated that travel to the moon is possible but, frankly, what’s the point? So with magic.

I’ve read your posts and I’m fairly sure you aren’t stupid but you are making the mistake which many people make in this information age, which is thinking that the more interesting is a subject the less information there should be within it the study of which will enable a person to become expert, as though there were an epistemological philosophers' stone. Magic, mysticism, is a huge topic and you won’t get what you need from one or two books. You’ll need a very large library, most of which will consist of axiom and proof, and don’t trust anyone who tells you that they are an occultist - all good librarians keep quiet and point to the signs calling for silence.

Hmmmm.
The term 'magick', however spelled, covers too much ground. Do you mean you want to learn a system of spells and so on to gain knowledge and power and be able to do what you want? Or are you wanting, hoping for a spiritual path to replace your lost faith?

Forget it all. When attempting anything new it is a very good idea not to leap into any new belief system. I suggest a holiday at the coast or mountains, just you and the rest of everything, some time out and some self appraisal.

What are you? How do you relate to others, how do you personally measure spirit, life, worth and so on? What does the farthest star mean to you?

What do you want as a human, what commitments are you willing to take, what are you willing to give up? What responsibilities do you have already?

Then, again as self, what do you like? Want, wish you could have/will have? Do this is practical terms ie I always wanted to live in the country/penthouse whatever, I always wanted a black silk shirt, always wanted to do calligraphy. then do it in more idal terms - what sort of world would I truly wish this was, how much is it worth of me to give up for that purpose?

I am sure you are seeing what I mean by now. It is your shape you need to find, your energy, your footprint and your worth. Then you can step out and by then, you will have an idea hopefully.

You may always have really wished you could astral travel/talk to faeries - you may have just wanted a very ordinary world to be more kind and pleasant - you may have wished you were a Zulu or an eskimo.

Somewhere in that inward looking and seeking you will find a path suggesting itself to you. Referring back to Jesus, have a look at Gnosis if you are just disappointed in the Church and religion. But if you are really ready to look into 'magick' you do not have to go far. A tree. You didn't make it, I didn't make it. That is magick. Love, from a deeply connected partner, that is magick all can find and be transported by.

Spells and so on are easy and do work, of course, we aren't all deluded here spite what we may say or claim! I have seen past time, levitated, cursed and injured people, won money, all the many magick tricks over many years - and I finally learnt to relax, let it be and live in relative peace and joy!

It is far more powerful IMO to find yourself as magick and live what is YOUR magick. A spell then is just a wish away, or more than that, you do not have to do them consciously as you and your life are magick. That is the craft of witches.

Go look, start with you. You are magick enough, the rest is just how you fit in and act.

That is a cracking idea and one I was thinking of!