(Not sure where to Post it so feel free to move it if need be)

So who uses Magic as a Part of their Everday Toolkit? As a device for solving problems and increasing their chances alongside, or even when other methods have failed?
I'm thinking along the lines of the Noisey Neighbors and situations at work Threads that have popped up.

Theres a Moral Dillema anywhay with this with some people beliving that Magic Shouldnt be used for things like that. Well in my opinion Magic is a Skill, a tool and should be used (and practced) but lots of people on here know my background is slighty diffrent to their chosen path.

Its all about the indivucals own moral code I mean, personally I would'nt use a Demonic Evocation Just becuase someone pinched my space in ASDA car park. But I have used Magic to help me get a Job, And i'm quite open about Cursing those who are direlty affecting the happiness and smooth life of me and mine.

Magic won't help you fix a leaky pipe, but would a simple Yes/No divination exersise help you find a plumber in the yellow pages who won't rip you off? Would you use it for that? Or wuld you take the "My choices are my own and I don't need any sort of help" stand.

Whats your thoughts on this?

Interesing thread hon... but I am going to move it to the Magic and Ritual forum.

In what ways does your interest in ceremonial magic qualify you for whatever job it is to which you were appointed?

I rarely use magic where I don't need to. I will confess to a few spiteful pokes at noisy headphones when grouchy and on public transport but on the whole, no.

Magic uses a lot of my energy and time, I've yet to find a perfect stranger who deserves any of either, so I don't throw curses around at people just cos they've irratated me. I'm just not that petty. Selfish yes, but not petty.

Funnily enough, my skill gets doesn't suffer for it's rare practice. Everyone is different.

What an inane and rude response!

Besides - do you REALLY want to know?

If you would show me in what way my question is either rude or inane then I would be grateful. JohnOdin asked for our thoughts. This was mine.




Yes.

Mod Hat On.

Fog Patches.

There was no need for the purile dig and has such has been removed.

However,

The the question was a reasonable one and I think what FP may have been asking was;

You should get a job on your merrits, is it right to use magick to obtain a position you would not have gotten otherwise.

Ah - oil ontroubled waters! (You are good at that Xalle! )

MUCH better put - ta.

I've got lots of Intrests, I'm intrested in Cars, I'm intrested in History, I'm intrested in Nature. I'm not intrested in Ceremonial Magic, I'm a Practicioner of it.

" In what ways does your interest in ceremonial magic qualify you for whatever job it is to which you were appointed?"
Absoltley none at all seeing as it was for a factory shift working job, and I was up agaisnt another applicant who happned to be realated to a manager there (can you spell nepotism) then I felt no qualms at all about swinging things in my favor.


Since the Mods have decided to remove your response FP I can only conclude that it was inane and rude and not really worth dignifying with a answer.

I think magic creeps into everyday life in a variety of ways.

I do do deity, so sometimes it's just asking for the strength not to batter to death yp's (or *cough* fellow professionals) who are really testing my boundaries. I sadly must confess it's usually the later.

Funding bids, always get a little secret mojo before being posted off. To date I've never had a funding application refused.

If I'm speaking to a group of people, I don't work to have my will per se, but often work to have myself heard, to get a fair hearing and that my ideas recieve due consideration, if that makes sense.

Every centre I've worked in has had a Queen Hegel set, to protect the staff and yp's.

People might think none of that's magic, that I'm kidding myself, but it works for me and I think it's effective.

Q

A relationship with an existing employee does not bar a candidate from being the best choice but, although you felt you were swinging things in your favour, it seems more likely that you were appointed on your merits and that the manager whose character you call into question was in fact ethical enough not to interfere in the selection process. You chose the title of this discussion well, however.




Nothing either inane or rude. I simply commented that in spite of black magicians each of my white goods were in perfect working order. I think it's fair to point this out, as you seem eager to have others think I somehow insulted you.

For Gods' sakes Fog Patches, can you perhaps share out the snidey comments or we'll start to think you're picking on ceremonial magicians...

Sorry Pomona. I'll turn over a new leaf - and scribble all over that one as well.

Ok Please can I just point out that Ceremonial Magic is not Black Magic. I will elaborate further on the differences in my Blog thread on CM.

I dont want this thread getting derailed. I asked if anyone uses a bit of mojo to grease the wheels as it were. I understand Queenies Reply very well as Me and OM know people who do the same job as Q.

I've used my Magic for all sorts of reasons, because I belive it is a practical skill not just a academic skill. But one area where I think I differ from a lot of people on the board is I will tend to use mine in a day to day manner. (or maybe i'm not so alone in my way of thinking after reading Q and Esks response )

I don't think using one's abilities/talents is at all unusual either JO. Not doing so makes about as much sense to me as having a beautiful dinner service, but never using it!

I would say that using magic to get a job (or a parking space in ASDA) depends on how great your personal need is.
If you were unemployed, had no money to feed your family and was just about to be evicted from your home, then yes I believe it would be right to use any means available to help ensure getting the job.
However, if it was simply a question of getting a different job with slightly better wages or conditions or getting a second job to pay for the month long holiday in Rio, then I would suggest it would be wrong to use magic, as by doing so you may be stopping someone else who is unemployed, has no money to feed his / her family and is just about to be evicted from their home, from getting that vital job and wage packet.

If magick is basically about intent, and we intend certain things to happen, then maybe as witches/magicians we apply that intent with more precision or with a little bit of something "extra" and so perhaps we DO use magick daily even if not consciously applying it.

I do use it daily in little ways.

But as Pasher says, it's based on need rather than greed.

You’re right, of course. No ceremonial magician worth their salt would hex white goods. That's black magicians.




I don’t mean to derail your thread, John. You mentioned your appointment as an example of the ends against which you feel magic may be applied and I think its discussion is legitimate. I suppose that different people have different priorities and so to me it seems such a small use for an epistemology the corpus of which has come down to us over the dead bodies of great men and women. It sounds very like overkill, like calling upon an angel to find a parking place.

Ah - but Fog Patches - a great deal of magic was never a corpus to begin with...

If a thing is written down and it’s about magic then by definition that thing belongs to the corpus of magical writings.

Certainly if JO donned a robe, drew a salt circle and pentagram, placed crystals in the pentagram and invoked Michael, just to find a parking space, then I'd be inclined to agree. I would imagine though that just like other forms of magick, CM can be fairly low key - but just as potent too? JO?

I think that’s more bonsai magic than ceremonial magic.

Perhaps you'r right FP, If somone makes a comment about the state of their "white goods" in a thread that I have started. I could only assume that the statement had someting to do with what I was talking about, Nevermind i'll know that your just making random inconsiqential comments in the future. My bad for assuming what is witten in the tread is relavant to the thread.

Theres lots of big legal sounding words all flying around at the moment. I don't do legalsese or big words, in fact in my blog posts on CM you will find that muddying the waters with misdirection, legagalese and academia is someting I am agaisnt as I belive it to be detrimental to the cause of furthering Human Magical and
Spiritual Development.

And this brings me back to some of my points, About using Magic for day to day purpouses. I've found that Magic for Matiriall gain is counter productive, while Magic for Spiritual Enlightenment (And yes that can include getting a decent nights sleep or not having to waste time Worrying about workcolleages) is something I advocate and admire.

What - low-key magick?

(Sorry, that was in response to the "bonsai magic" comment!)

Low key or Loki?

The car parking comment was raised my Chris Penzacks "City Magic" and his use of chaos type rituals to guarantee himself a space. Myself I find driving a old car with the passanger door stove in and coverd in blue paint scrapes tends to have the same effect-I guess thats Psycholigy more that Magic though.

As far as the Job Ritual went. I did get the job. The price I paid was that I learnt I'm not a shift worker, By the end of the 2 years I was going crazy with Boredom and taken to having my breaks with the smokers (Even when they were bansihed to a bush shelter type affair) because of the better class of conversation.
I will allways manitain that its a greater learning experice when things go wrong or have unexpected results than when things go just as expected. I'm not here as a Magician to find himself a parking space or to curse the idiot brigade willy nilly. I'm here to further myself as a living breathing agent of God, after all "Every man and woman is a star." But I belive that Magic is a skill that should be practiced not consigned to books.

One thing I was wondering is there seem to be people who "pigeonhole" their Magical practices and would engage in a Lammmas ritual in a group or coven but won't use it any other way. There are such people out there. I would have liked to hear their opinion on it, but so far they have been quite quiet.
If theres anyone out there who has a very definete set of what they will and won't do with Magic then i would really want to hear your views. I thinkit would further the thread and the way we all view Magic along a litte bit.

Um have I missed something.... white goods? what white goods? when?



In response to question - um yes I think so!! sometimes!
Have no issues with magic for job/house etc (mainly as this is about 90% of what I have done in magic terms!!) just see it as swinging things in my favour.

Re Pasher's comment on stopping an unemployed person getting a job by magic use - surely if you apply and get the job on 100% mundane means you are doing the same - so why apply? surely everything we do could have such consequences - do not do anything just in case?

Ed

Corpus = stuff written down. Hmm. Hate to be a damp squib here, but in magic, not everything WAS written down!


So - what spin speed would you recommend then JO?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Tas dont ask him questions about washing machines. its his line of expertise

Aha!

A useful person to know

*makes note*

Wish he'd fix mine - all those coconuts in the spin cycle have buggered it!

my thought on this is that if you are good a magic (be it ceremonial or hedgewitch type) that is a skill/talent that you have
In my mind there is nothing more insulting to the "Goddess/Universe/Ancestors/insert your own here" than wasting the talents that you have or they have given to you
As long as you use it within a "moral code" and are willing to take the consequences of your actions i think it is fine to use it as & when you need

I have a couple of "spells" (for want of a better word) for clearing traffic jams - if I use them when it isn't really necessary the goddess will always give a gentle nudge as if to say "OY stop it don't take the piss"
at that point i always listen

See thats something I just dont get.

Nothing but my own compass restricts me in what I do. My magick doesnt flow from gods so... I mean do you really need a god to tell you not to take the piss with your magick? I dont understand that at all.

Do I use magick for the mundane?

Yes... at times, and I suppose like Pomona says, theres a bit every day. Mostly its normal stuff, things I dont even think about I just do. Or like today, when it was more deliberate. Pissing rain, I did not want to get wet. So its either wait till the rain stops... or... ease it off a bit. I was in a hurry. I didn't wait. Should I have done that? Maybe not. Did I? Hell yes. No point in having a dog and barking myself.

Which signifies 2 things. First, that that those things unwritten were not worth the ink, and second, that nobody uses those things.

Go for it Foggy, don't let lack of logic get in your way!

As it seemed clear that you did not want to talk about what you had spoken of - the use of ceremonial magic to get shift work - I felt there was no harm in speaking about the welfare of my kitchenware.




At the end of his first week in Hell a damned engineer knocks on the door of the Devil’s palace to complain about the heat. The sentry demon is so astounded at the audacity of the man that it admits him to the Devil’s study.

“What do you want, human scum?” asks the Devil.

“Well, it‘s the infernal heat, your majesty.” replies the engineer.

“What about it? Meant to be this way. God‘s punishment against Me as well as you execrable lot.” Roars the Devil, smoke belching from his mouth.

“So I heard in R.E. classes, your majesty, but I have a proposition for You.” says the engineer, calmly.

“Go on.” says the Devil, his curiosity aroused.

A month goes by and the Devil is sitting comfortably in his study, bathed in cool air conditioning and sipping a glass of chilled spring water, when up in Heaven God sits down at His own desk, puts up His feet and calls the Devil on the hot line from Heaven for His regular gloat.

“So how are things down there, Lucifer? Pretty hot, huh? I bet you‘re really regretting your little rebellion now!” chuckles God.

“Not at all,” answers the Devil, smiling, “We had a very clever engineer admitted last month and he‘s transformed the place! We have cool water plumbed in direct from the glaciers of Limbo - which plumbed through our new sprinklers made short work of all that annoying fire, let me tell you - allowing us to get some major-league air conditioning around the place, rivers flowing and we even have a water polo league now in our Olympic-sized swimming pool. If you listen closely you‘ll be able to hear the fountain he fitted into the park which he’s just finished landscaping for me. Some beautiful koi in there. Do You like koi, Joe?”

“What?” thunders God, His feet falling from the desk and lightening sparking from his ears, “How dare you! How did you do this?”

“Oh, we had an admission, some engineer from Newcastle who arrived last month on the 13th. Something of a genius, really.” says the Devil, twirling the ice cubes in His glass.

“The 13th you say? An engineer? From Newcastle? Hold the line!”

And the Devil holds the line while God, furious that the Devil, His minions and the legions of the damned aren’t suffering eternal torment in horrendous lakes of fire, tramps out of His palace and down to the Pearly Gates where He consults with Saint Peter's records. After tramping back into His office, trailing storm clouds, God picks up the handset again and growls at the Devil.

“He was one of Mine! You send him up here at once and We‘ll say no more about this!”

“Shant.” Says the Devil.

“You return him, Lucifer, or I‘ll sue”

“Oh yes?” says the Devil, putting His feet on His desk and smiling a grin that would shame a shark, “And from just where are you going to get a lawyer?”




What, material gain like getting a job?

Low-key ceremonial magic, yes. I can’t imagine such a thing. Did Potty Time ever do the Golden Dawn?

What lack of logic?

Tas's commented, "in magic, not everything WAS written down!"

Your reply was:
"Which signifies 2 things. First, that that those things unwritten were not worth the ink, and second, that nobody uses those things."

Both of which are non sequiturs.

There are many reasons for not writing things down. Some cultures or traditions don't use writing or use other forms of record-keeping. Some things are too secret or dangerous to be written down lest they fall into the wrong hands.

To then suggest that nobody uses something because it's not written down is simply laughable.

FP just because you cant imagine something does not mean it does not exist. yes John Odin is a cerimonial magician if your read our blogs you would know, he does not own a robe have a wand or any other cerimonial garb. yes he uses words but that is for him to tell you about.

i did find it highly amusing thinking of him standing in asda car park with a robe and wand looking for a space

thanks for the old joke about god and the devil but what relevance it holds is beyond me. apart from does he need a lawyer

Xalle i think some of us all have different uses. some use the gods to stop them overstepping the mark some of us use our own morals and creeds.

magik is very personal to the person. do i use magik for mundane. does a bear crap in the woods and use bunnies to wipe its arse. course i do. i dont abuse my magik as ultimately it will take its toll in some way. but a tweak here and there just from time to time why the hell not.

I use magic for the mundane if it's the easiest way to achieve what I want. If there is an easier way then why would I use magic? Magic is a part of who I am, using it is no different than using my fingers or voice. I also sort of use it with traffic lights. No spells as such, just when I approach a green light I find myself thinking " stay green" and 90% of the time it does. I think it's no different to anyone else thinking "please stay green" except with a little more oomph.

If by using it for the mundane you mean making the people who have jumped the queue in front of me in the supermarket feel very uncomfortable and drop their eggs (for example) then yes I use it for the mundane.

I am surprised that no-one has mentioned the 'bus-summoning' spell. All you need is a cigarette....

I think it was Marian Green who said about using magic to find parking spaces. It isn't odd or weird to use spells to get what you want. In fact, it is the opposite view point that confuses me - what is the point of spending 20 or more years honing your skills just to never use them!

I am not sure I would use magic to change my shifts, but I did use it to get my job, and then my promotion. But I also worked my arse off to get my promotion, so who knows which bit was successful? If i had just lazed around, not bothered preparing, and chewed gum throughout the interview I doubt very much that IU would have got the promotion. So magic should always be used in conjunction with 'mundane', and just hope that you have covered all the bases.

And I am not sure about anyone else, but I always thought 'low key ceremonial magic' was better known as 'witchcraft'. Could be just me though.

Nobody uses those things not written down?

*blink*

You'll need to explain how that would work: if something isn't written down, then why would it necessarily follow that it wasn't worth the ink? That's a bit like saying that unless someone writes sonnets and poetry to write down their love for another, then that love is worthless

And, how can you say that nobody uses those things which were unwritten? You have intimate knowledge of the minds and magickal workings of every person who ever lived that you feel qualified to make such a definitive statement??

Presumably the follow on from your argument is that magick performed which is not performed according to what actually WAS written down, is therefore ineffective and useless?

Andy,




Neither was a non sequitur. You are reading the post in isolation and making an invalid induction.




Those cultures with writing, of which the Anglophone is a singular example, write everything down whether it’s important or not. That a thing may fall into inappropriate possession does not mean that it is less likely to be writted down than anything else. The government is forever losing important documents, and the internet is teeming with information which has the potential to be very dangerous.




Giggle away by all means, but allow me to explain. A person may use something which they have not written down, for example I have never written down the means by which I determine the days of the week for various centuries but I still use it. If I were to pass it on to another person, however, then I would write it down. Remember the particular context, Andy which is that of historical documents and do not generalise to fallacy.

I'm really confused by that one: why would you necessarily write down the means by which you determine the days of the week for passing onto another person if you yourself did not see the need to write it down for your own usage?

OpalMoon.



The old jokes are the best, I think we can agree, but the point of the joke’s appearance here is the futility of eschewing academia and “legagalese” (sic).

Yeah, I'm having a problem with this remark, especially as I have just read through the entire thread again and am not sure where this came from.

A considerable amount of magic was written down in grimoires and spell books over the last few centuries, but not all of it. The village wiseman/woman or cunning man/woman would always keep a few tricks up their sleeves, something others would not know, so there would be no point in writing it down and so risk someone else nicking it. Of course, this means we have no idea what the tricks were, but it has been written down that these things were done, usually by the wise person themselves.

A LOT of our folk tradition is/was oral. The whole problem with neo-druidism is that they can never be sure that what they believe is what the ancient druids believed, because they didn't write stuff down. They can only use conjecture from what the ancient druids' enemies wrote down. Doesn't stop people from wanting to be a neo-druid though.

And on a personal note, I do quite a lot of magic that I never write down. Maybe I should. But it doesn't mean that work was useless.

Pomona.



Efficiency. It would save me the time of explaining the method to another person, the other person the time spent asking me to repeat the method, me the time spent repeating the method to the other person and the other person the time spent listening to me repeat the method.

Marvellous invention, writing.

But nearly obsolete.

I tend to post links. Much better than some poor sap having to a) decipher my handwriting and have to ask to clarify my notoriously poor explanations anyway.

As we can see

But, as you and I have just illustrated, having something in writing is no guarantee of the effectiveness in getting the message over, since clarification was still sought, the initial point elaborated on, a process which is, I'd suggest, just as efficient or otherwise as oral learning.