my question is one that has probably been disscused so many times but any way , I am at present reading a book called summoning spirits by Konstantinos i know some on here dont like any llewellyn books on the craft and the ocult but just bear with me.

In this book he makes a lot of referance to the quabala and cerimonial magick and the goetea and with in these branches of the ocult is the (for me any way!) annoying use of the xtian and hebrew/ jewish conections and religions. I want to know why is that and surely its a contradiction with the teachings of those religions? Secondly if you could do the same evocations but change the wording by removing the christian or jewish god from the rituals?

For me its really annoying because it seems like the old magi just took religious ritual words like the apostles creed or the catholic rituals used in prayer as well as Anglican Eucharist ritual prayers and turned them in to spels and evocations for angles and other beings the 'wizard ' wants to communicat with.

hope im making sence here?!

so any ideas?

I suspect John Odin may give a better answer but I can respond a little.

First of all, if you want a better understanding of Ceremonial Magic, the Goetia, and Golden dawn, I would get rid of that Konstantinos book. It's crap.

Secondly, the official religion of the British Isles for over a millenium has been Christianity. Of course men interested in the Occult were going to use Christian rites and rituals - it's all they were allowed to use. These paths were (and probably still are) not pagan in the sense that we understand it. They didn't have pagan gods (apart from maybe Pan). Neo-paganism also takes Christian rites and re-writes them to fulfil certain needs, so I don't see why that is a problem.

If you understand that neo-paganism is not paleo-paganism, and that neo-paganism owes a huge debt to CM and the Golden Dawn, then that book may become clearer.

I haven't read Konstantinos, but I've been wading through a book by a character called Kaledon Naddair. The book was given to me by a friend. It's nearly done my head in.

The book in question is called "Keltic Myth and Folklore" and purports to be in the Keltic Shamanic Tradition. This character Naddair has a presence on the internet. He must be getting on a bit now.

How he manages to reconcile the Qabbalistic Tree of the Sephiroth with any kind of Keltic tradition is beyond me. No, in fact it's not. He doesn't reconcile it, he just throws it in, like extra coriander into the cooking pot.

The thing is, the Qabbalistic tradition was a medieaval synthesis of Jewish and Christian mysticism, as an attempt to defuse the violent anti-semitism of the time.

It's about as Keltic as chopsticks. Naddair also insists on spelling everything with a K instead of a C, as in points out the inconsistencies in the English Language relating to the Kelts. In fact it just serves to konfuse and irritate, as well as skuppering any power of diskrimination in the reader.

Okay, you can do a synthesis of Qabbalah with Celtic Mysticism if you like, AND add Egyptology and Native American Folklore, but don't go calling it Celtic. "New Age" if anything, but don't bring it near me.

"Summoning" sounds a bit vague in itself to me.
Theres Evocation and Invocation, The way I remeber it, if you Invoke then you are calling something IN to yourself, similar to being posessed, or a Voodo type ritual (maybe one of the Voodo practicioers can educate furter). If you Evoke then you are calling something down for a 1-2-1 type conversation.
First Question I would reall ask is "why Evoke or Summon?"
Honestly its not someting that should be undertaken lightly, If you really feel the need to Evoke then weigh up the options and go ahead. But I would urge caution.

As far as the Quabbalistic/Xtian side of it goes, And why its used in Books...Well the short answer is "There are more Xtian rituals, than just the Baptism, Marridge and Funeral services (There are Xtian rituals for summoning)." Thats a very short cliff notes answer to a incredibly complex system.

It's used because it works. Simple as really.

If you want to go into the field of summoning spirits without it then do. Of course it won't be the same thing - because it's different. That's like saying 'I don't like apples; if I eat an orange, is it the same thing?' But have a look at something like Chaos Magic or - if you're after dead people - Spiritualism. Or just plain straight-forward witchcraft.

Ceremonial, or High, Magic is what it is because it is. You wouldn't want to wipe it out in the same way most people wouldn’t want to erase Asatru or Wicca. It's one of the multitude of interesting systems and practices. So either go with it and enjoy it, or ignore it Plenty more fish in the sea.

Ceremonial Magic has its roots in alchemy, back in the middle ages. The medieval alchemists were rooted in Judeo-Christianity (coming from both religions), so their rituals used those religions. That practice lasted through to the 19th century when OGD became the highly influential (on modern paganism) form. hermetic religion/ceremonial magic went one way, and paganism (from various sources) another.

Try reading Ronald Hutton's "Triumph of the Moon". It may not teach you anything about magic, but it will teach you a great deal about the modern pagan movement, which helps to fit the pieces together so you can begin to assess what you read.

Of course you can create and summon your own 'spirits'. Witchcraft does that when required. It is best to be very clear of what you want and why. The existing ritual magick systems often have very involved and detailed descriptions of the 'powers', how to summon and constrain, the cost involved and so on. Witchcraft, as different to wicca, relies more on a personal understanding, an individual interpretation and a direct balance with the power invoked/evoked and the witch.

Ditch the Konstantinos. I personally think his stuff is dangerous because it takes tidbits from various places but gives no real understanding of what you are doing, what you need to do to do it properly and how not to mess up.

that has helped i guess its a branch of magic that is ritualistic and if you like a christian / jewish tradition. 'high' magic i guess is not were i should be for i think it would be best if i stuck to a more natural form of magic/ witchcraft.

Yes, that's exactly right. A Houngan or Mambo will call the Loa by the use of song, dance, drumming and I suspect other stuff that's taught as part of the priestly initiation in order to become possessed or "ridden" by the spirit. We don't really evoke as such; except in specific magical workings designed to house a spirit in an object.

To answer the questions in the original post, I believe there have been attempts to replace the angelic names in some ceremonial workings with other deity names - Sallie Ann Glassman springs to mind, who replaced the names of Sephira on the Tree of Life with names of the Loa. I'm sure other people have tried it too, but I have no idea how successful they've been. In fact I learnt the Middle Pillar exercise using these replacements... it was quite interesting on an abstract and academic level but ceremonial magic just isn't for me, wih or without Judeo-Christian terms!

But it is a natural form of magick! Shamans, witches, all do this not just ritual/ceremonial magicians! Even so, be sure to consider quite what you are doing and why if you take it from just reading and researching to trying it out. It is an area of magick that is known to be problematic but it need not be so. Mainly because it works! Whether you follow a systematic detailed historical ritual method or whether you work to create or summon a spirit in your own way, you should be very clear on what you want and why, also what you are willing to pay. You can do 'one-off' jobs but that is not usually what happens, tends to come back again. The disposal or dismissal of the energy, however you conceive it is the trick.

And whatever you mean by 'more natural methods' must be understood as well. For example, if you create your own, lets call it a 'spirit', for a purpose, it doesn't always just go away afterward! And it can partake of your own subconscious energy and act onwards without your immediate realisation. It can also evolve a certain consciousness of its own. The stuff of it should be reabsorbed into the practitioner, however that can be dangerous as you may imagine.

I would look at what you can find of 'familiars' first. At least there you have an inherent loyalty ! Otherwise, you can follow the path of 'dedication' but that is a two way channel.

I am not trying to put you off, but the hierarchical learning systems of graded ceremonial magick, even Wicca, have a purpose in that the practitioner is usually led to or finds a broader understanding of self and control of self at the same time as the understanding of metaphysics improves. The qabalah in one way can be seen as a structured teaching aid wiht many texts, commentaries and lessons about it to draw from. The similar pattern in shamanism would perhaps be a tribal teacher or guide at the hands of whom one learns, then a spirit totem or guide. Same to some extent in witchcraft.

The seeker who walks their own path should concentrate on understanding themselves as much as and in parallel to understanding the realms. Then if you start with spel-lwork, you are in fact doing the same as working with spirits and power but in a less directed manner. Hmm, thats not quite the right way to put it but I am veering off topic I guess so that will do for now.

It may help your understanding if you stop thinking of the various Jewish words as 'names of God' and more as 'titles of God', with God being the unknown, unseen force within the Universe, and not the despot desert God of the Old Testament. The angels have titles rather than names too.

Our conditioning and influences in the UK mean that we tend to think, as children, of 'God' as a male bearded figure sitting on a cloud somewhere. Move away from this social conditioning and 'God' becomes much, much more.

Rhiannon

Can I ask a question here? What is/are the purpose(s) of summoning a 'spirit' ?

Marto

There are very many. You need to do some reading. Why do you ask?

The most important, particularly in the traditional witchcraft, is a guardian spirit for the witchcraft family. It is actually created not summoned. It works for the Family and in return there is a responsibility to protect the Land of which the family is custodian. And so on and so forth. All terminology such as 'works' 'custodian' etc. is subjective. It can be 'proven' but not easily or simply and probably never enough to satisfy those without basic belief. (Or the insanity and fantasy lives as you usually suggest.) Or unless you have psychic perception outside of a craft belief system in which case you may be able to correctly interpret.

If you are not being 'negative' Marto, as you have protested you are not, but do really want to know, I will correspond with you about this. And the fact that you personally do not understand or believe does not mean that such things are not 'real'. You may be just incapable of understanding or perceiving within your present chosen mind set. You are not the only arbiter of 'reality'.

As far as I've seen it discussed and done (and done it myself, in extremis/foolishness)

1. bragging rights
2. guidance
3. protection
4. information
5. communication
6. carrying (intent, purpose, message, apology)
7. curiosity
8. access to higher forms and realms
9. access to lower forms and realms


There is a difference between beings one summons and beings one creates, but they often seem to serve the same functions, as least loosely. It is generally considered unwise to try to summon beings who are tied to place, unless one goes physically to that place first. That alters the dynamic, however, and one will more often be petitioner in those circumstances than equal or (temporary) superior.

There is generally some kind of exchange involved - how burdensome this is is usually dependent on how good a negotiator you are, or what previous relationship might exist between you or your family (band, clan, etc.) and the being.

Like astral projection, actual communication with such beings is rarer than it seems when you read about it on boards. It is very easy to fool yourself, to have a third-person daydream and decide it was a communication with the 'unseen', or to write both parts of the script and convince yourself that the second is actually happening spontaneously.

It does occur, though. (You can't commit me, I've moved ) Like any such experiences, however, I advise reality checks throughout the process and afterwards. Especially afterwards - before acting on any information received, in fact. If you do it to learn something otherwise unavailable to you, and you do in fact learn it, you will find that things that were uncheckable when you tried to research them from the 'front end' will be more easily checked from the newly acquired 'back end'. This is my experience, at least.

The foregoing is offered up with full understanding of how unprovable and insane it sounds. I don't recommend people do evocations or invocations casually, but most of our information on it does come from people who were willing to try it out. I'm sure the apprentice gunpowder researchers of old learned much from the smoking craters their masters left. (or vice versa)


unsung

Thank you unsung: very well put and comprehensive. I do sometimes wonder if people really know what they are doing. And you know, it's VERY hard to judge by what many say just exactly what it is they are doing and why.

But then, I think 'Because I can' ( which would come under 'bragging rights ) is probably covered under some obscure hubris 'laws' and would take care of itself.

I remember a very respected woman on a pagan forum a long time ago once answering someone on why it might not be a good idea to attempt to summon the dead. She likened it to knocking continually on the door during the day of someone who works night-shift and when they finally get up (very tired from being called from their rest) and answer the door, the person that disturbed them says " Just wanted to see if I could wake you up" and what kind of reception one could expect from playing around that way .

I shall give your post another read when I have a mo. because there are some very interesting ideas in there.

Marto

Nice! Ask an honest question, get an unprovoked attack.

Marto makes a good point (and unsung answers it very well); what is the point of summoning spirits? I know why Thelemites do it - to get rich, get laid, and get even, things that they could do without opening themselves up to some risk if they just put their minds to it. because summoning spirits and demons will always carry a level of risk attached.

Attracting a 'family spirit' is only one use, and it seems a bit of a weird one. What do you do with it once you run out of jobs for it to do? Seems perilously close to having a slave to me.

Forgive me for stepping in here. But I dont think that was an attack. I think what Jape was trying to say (and I am sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong...) was that our reality is defined by how we choose to understand the world. I said somewhere else in a thread that people choose not to believe in aliens because they have never seen one and their bible tells them there arent any. That is a mind set, a perception, perhaps if someone can bring a differnt perspective to someone you could abuse them of their concept of reality.

I don't think it was an attack either, but suggesting that someone may be incapable of understanding or perception simply because they question your assertions does come across as a little patronizing even if it is not meant as such.

Reality may or may not be subject to personal arbitration but skepticism doesn't always imply ignorance or a closed mind set.

Peace

DM