I have recently been looking for information on Saging and have found there is little information on Croning and even less on Saging (a man's 'croning) available. In many Pagan beliefs the Crone or Sage is thought to be knowledgeable, wise and experienced.
Have you ever listened to your grandparents talk about the 'good old days'? Ever listened to Uncle Charlie's war stories? It can seem to go on endlessly, but, do you ever really listen? It is amazing the amount of experience that older people have to contribute to the younger generation. It used to be that the elders of the tribe were held in high regard because of their knowledge and experience. Many times in Native American and Celtic cultures, the elders were the story tellers, the ones who passed on valuable information about their history and practices.
Nowadays older people are viewed as nothing more than an annoyance or something to shove away in a home. Do we ever really take the time to listen to them, become closer and learn from them? Not often. Older people are a wealth of experience. They are capable of passing on practices and life's lessons so we may become stronger and learn from their mistakes...and their deeds. Sit down with your grandparents, or someone who is close to you that is 'of mature age' . Ask them to tell you about their experiences. Ask them their views on the spiritual and the mundane. And really listen! You may be suprised as to what you hear.
I have over the years, marked the passage in time with varying rituals, I now find I am that time in life where I would like to honour Mr G with a saging ritual but, as I have already said, found little information on the subject. So I would ask if any of you have experience or know of any information regarding the marking of this time of life.

sorry cant help with any info but just wanted to say i agree with you about listening to our elders,i have a spiky relationship with my dad who is now 78 but several months ago we got chatting about his recent interest in tracing our family tree,we had a good long chat about the family and i was amazed at the things he told me,i saw my dad in a new light that day not just as my grumpy hard to get on with dad but as a person in his own right with a story to tell,i could still cheerfully throttle him sometimes though

I'm a real elder witch bloke, I know all about it, come sit on my knee and I will whisper some stuff in your ear ....

I'm at that difficult age when I'm not wrinkly enough to convince myself I am past it when I look in the mirror, in fact I look very distinguished, powerful and experienced. The waitresses in my local cafe give me lots of hugs but it may be from pity.

Look Gina, word from the wise, don't dress it all up. It is meaningless, sorry. You got someone you love and respect of advancing years, just look them directly in the eyes and tell them, ask questions and listen to the bloody answers! We get impatient with you young whippersnappers who don't want the subtle nuances we deliberately hide in what you may think is a boring ramble - and we don't need rituals any more for magick or nothing - but if you want to give a prezzy make it a very good cigar and very good whiskey. And all old blokes who aren't too physically weak, still want a young pair of pert breasts pressed up agin them in a hug, daily if possible. Doesn't matter if you are a relly, just that you are female. It is an essential part of magickal spiritual rejuvenation and all younger pagans and witches should remember that when they meet us elder sages. I can tell ya, in the good old days we used to get virgins offered for the same job ya know! True. believe me!

I dunno. The older I get myself the more bonkers older people seem. When I was younger I used to think there must be some method behind the conventions and stuff. Some archaic reason for bridge, sherry (Yuck !! Yuck !!), driving a posh car incredibly slowly, getting dressed up every day, eating at a table in a dining room at 6 o'clock, pop socks, caravans etc. Now as a 40 year old and a parent I just think "Why ?????" And how can the good old days be good ? My mum used to harp on about it and then in the next breath talk about being on the local TB ward because she was an asthma patient, or having an outside lavvy. "It was great in the war" ???!!! maybe it's just because my parents were crazier than a sack of assholes.

Following the "past is another country" analogy I tend to think of the distant past like visiting Japan or India; exotic, exciting and worth the discomforts for the new ideas and interesting sights. The recent past is more like continental Europe; a little bit square, a little bit sad and lacking in social awareness and all the comforts of home. So old folk are a bit like annoying dutchmen Also they think they've a right to pinch my son's face at the bus stop. It takes great restraint not to do the same right back at 'em !!

Jape, you're incorrigible

I don't think age necessarily equals wisdom. Some of my relatives got to a good age but weren't very wise and didn't hold any religious beliefs.

I don't know if you need to follow another's ritual.

Just think about what you want to achieve, and do your own thang. Perhaps just cooking him a nice dinner and expressing your appreciation for what he has brought to your relationship.

As to respecting elders in general. You can do far worse than buying an old man a pint. In fact 'Join Me' had buy an old man a pint one of the deeds you could do on a 'Good Friday'. Linkage for anyone interested.

http://www.join-me.co.uk/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Join_Me

Q

PS Yes, Jape is incorrigible, but he can still have a Queenie_dust_hug, just not sure my heaving bosom could be described as pert! So if trading standards come and carry me away, someone please plan a rescue.

any bosom that still heaves is pert, just means 'saucy', and if I dribble, it is lust, not senility.

I like the buy an old bloke a beer idea too, as long as it is single malt ...
sorry to jump in the thread again but its got me all worked up, hope for my future

Just moving this to the right spot.

Yeah, especially if the old bloke is gay. He'd really appreciate that

Also, don't forget old witches - nothing like having some unknown young dude pressing his package against you ( especially if you are alone on a dark street at night!) Chippers those old dames up no end! ( All old ladies love speaking with sympathetic coppers - it's well known!).

After about age 20, we are all for the slide, it's just the obvious things don't show yet. I always found it interesting that the Ancient Romans had a goddess for babies first bite of food, first step, first time going out and so forth yet no equivalent for older people. I guess managing to survive is it's own reward. I think it still is!

But then, I kind of figure people don't stop being viable after certain ages, I also don't think age confers wisdom or even interest. Still , I always go out of my way to speak with older folks - I've learned a lot of history from them and I only regret not learning more as I've always believed that the 'real' history is that which ordinary people live, not just those that make it into history books. Without the people 'below' them, they'd be nowt.

To my ( just my opinion) the ideas of 'croning and saging' just help to underscore that older people are somehow not on the same continuum as all of us, that they are a separate category. I know this naffs off children and teens something fierce. Why should anyone have to be reminded they are somehow 'different', deserving or not deserving in the same way as others based on age?

Marto

Actually.

I agree with Jape.

I do listen to my elders, or did before my only living grandparent became a fruit loop My grandfarther told me stories about being yopun, growing up, working the shipyards during the war.... I've listened to their tales and actually have a great transcript of my grandfather remember the war years because of a project I was doing. But life isnt what it used to be. Modern life leaves very little time, somtimes to spend with our elder relatives.

All that said, elders should be honoured in a way that acknoledges they are still alive and deserve a bit of "the good stuff". Ritual and everything else is just... window dressing... and I am quite sure Mr G, would prefer a decent bottle of something and if not a cigar a good pipe tobacco, or if he doesnt smoke, some other indulgence. There is a reason that in voodoo and in many other cultures when respecting elders, food and drink are gifts of preferance.

Why wouldn't one treat an older person anyway at any time? I can't see there is an 'occasion' to give something nice to someone as many times as one likes. It's not 'saging or croning', it's just being kind and aware. At least, that's how I see it.

Marto

I think Gina is looking to do a ritual. Thats why we are discussing it.

I agree we should always be aware of our elders, but she wanted something special to "do".

I understand that. What I'm wondering about (given the 'thread drift' ) is why a 'ritual' is needed? Is it to 'honour' someone for living a set length of time or a general show of appreciation for our elders? I guess I'm asking where the 'sageing' bit came in. The word 'Sage' indicates wisdom, not age. So , is this about honouring someone's specific attributes of wisdom? I'm sorry, Gina herself made mention of the general appreciation of older folk so I'm trying to figure out the difference.

Marto

I suppose when someone turns 21 we celebrate it. We have a ritual that marks their move into adulthood. We give them ritual items like keys, symbolising their coming of age. I actually think that its a nice idea to say, "I want to mark THIS day and the coming of the age of wisdom" Before you say age does not necesarily mean wisdom, I agree, but for Gina, thats what she wants to mark. Thats the ritual she wants to bestow on Mr G. Maybe she feels Mr G has more to offer than is being seen by younger members of the family. Or maybe Mr G is a great orator and she wants to acknowledge that. I am sure she will let us know. Either way, I like Japes idea of what to do.

I agree that giving someone your full attention and actually talking to them and thanking them if you have benefited from their presence is the best gift. Sincere words are worth a lorry full of 'stuff'. If one wishes to bestow a gift on someone, it should be specific to the person, not their age .

I have a dear friend in her late 80's who'd thwack me with her handbag if I gave her the standard stuff for the marketer's demographic of 'age appropriate' presents . She'd much rather have the things she likes, so that's what I give her even if it's the same stuff she liked years ago ( If I can still get it - I have to shop 'round the world sometimes).

So really, it doesn't ( in my opinion) come down to 'stages' ( as they will be different for everyone - people place different significance on different dates in their life). I'd give my son kudos for being 'Sage' and give some of the older folk I know a miss in that regard!

It's just my own feelings - I like to show appreciation when I can, not at set times. But! everyone is different and has different ideas of what is significant. The important part is valuing people - at any age, not just stage.

Marto

I thought that birthday parties for special ages was a way of expressing appreciation and gratitude that someone has lasted as long as they have? Isn't that why we have 40th, 50th, 60th, 70th, 80th birthday parties?

I often wonder whether there is a special fairy who turns up on a person's 65th birthday and removes their street saviness? My parents used to be very street savvy but it seems to have vanished with age.

Rhiannon