At the risk of setting off yet another "Yes it is, No it isn't" thread...

What is the basis of belief?
The way I see it there are 6 bases for belief:
1. Singular personal experience e.g. I saw a ghost therefore I believe in ghosts.
2. Multiple personal experience e.g. a whole bunch of us saw a ghost therefore WE believe in ghosts
3. Research into other beliefs, finding that which speaks to me and that fits in with my world view
4. Intuition, not based on solid experience, or on what other people may beleive.
5. Sound historical evidence.
6. Information received as a child, e.g. tooth fairy, father Xmas the infallibility of the pope...

There may be more but I think they're all subsets of the above.
The problem with belief if I remember correctly from my philosophy A level, is that it is always unproveable to those who do not share it.

How far can we be expected to tolerate others' beliefs and at what point do we start shouting "ha ha, you're all credulous fools because you believe such-and-such" and dropping bombs on these people who have no more right to live on god's clean earth than a weasel?

BM
xx

P.S. Actually I've thought of a number 7, "What some bloke told me in the pub" which is a surprisingly solid basis for belief for many people.

i would say that the basis for my beliefs are a mixture of all of those,apart from being told by the man in the pub,i dont speak to strange men in pubs

For me, probably a mixture of 1, 3 & 4.

There are probably various things that have happened (1) which set me thinking and looking (3) and going with what seemed to make sense to me (4). As for the 'bloke in the pub' that could just as easily be 'somebody on a forum' so I guess you can throw in no' 7 as well.

You missed the 'what I read on the internet' category, which is much more prevalent in neo-paganism today!

Social conditioning is a huge factor. Seriously, how many of us paid lip service to Christianity when we were kiddies because that's what was expected? The UK has its own religion, C of E, where we don't even have to go to Church to believe! God and Jesus are just 'there', chuntering away in the background. It takes a huge effort to realise one day that actually Anglicanism isn't what we want to be. Transferring that belief to another religion is a lot easier than actually thinking about the whole 'does it really exist?' bit.

I also think belief is personal. I may believe I am the rightful heir to Lemuria, and nothing you lot can say would ever make me change my mind, but what value would that be for me to drop into a conversation apart from trying to make myself look important? Who cares which imaginary friend we believe in?

PS, Father Christmas exists, so there!

For me, reasons 1,2,3, 4 and 5 are valid.

I got to where I am in terms of belief because of a mixture of personal and shared experience, historical research, research into other beliefs and intuition.

In terms of things I was told as a child, my father is spiritualist which has had a big impact however now I disagree with fundamentals of that belief, such as just what a ghost/spirit is and the existence of the soul.

Dear BM,



I rather think all six of these have played some part in forming my beliefs, though the strongest components are 1 & 3.



I remember being told this too, and failing to understand why it should be considered a problem . It only seems so to those who expect other people to agree with them .... and, ok, maybe to some philosophers



The traditional answer of: As far as does not restrict our own freedom of belief, still seems pretty sound.



Shhhhhh!! Don't tell the evangelicals or there'll be no escape from them .

BB,

John Macintyre

Dear Ww,



That would be "England (the mostly flat bit of the island which obstructs fish trying to swim from the Solway to the Channel) has its own religion, C of E,".

Scotland has the Church of Scotland as its Established ™ Church, and many of us will zealously uphold its status as a national institution we don't belong to.

BB,

John Macintyre

Crap! I do that every time. Sorry.

I am not England-centric, honest!!

Well, maybe just a little bit.

And not forgetting: my Granny taught me what to believe in...

Irrefutable.

[quibble]

Number 5 should be dispensed with. This is something you believe, not something that compels you to believe. If it IS established historical fact, then there is no controversy over the belief.

[/quibble]

I'd have to say all 6 ( even and especially number 5 ) have contributed to my being an Atheist.

Marto

I’m sorry if I’m being pedantic but surly what you mean is that religious belief (and faith) is always disprovable to those who do not share it.

Whether or not a belief can be proved or disproved is dependant on what the belief is. For example, I believe in the existence of an omnipotent omniscient intangible invisible pink unicorn cannot be proved or disproved, however I believe that my houseplants will die if I do not water them can be proved or disproved by not watering them.

You’re missing what I believe to be the only basis for religious belief, or any belief for that matter, and that is choice. You have to choose whether or not private and public religious experiences (1 and 2) are actual real empirical experiences or of they are the results of hallucinations and mass hysteria, for number three you’re choosing to research other systems of religious belief, for number four you have to choose whether or not to go along with your intuition and what an ‘intuitive feeling’ feels like, for five you’re choosing whether or not the historical evidence is sound or if it should determine some aspect of you religion, and you choose whether or not to accept what you were raised to believe.

Yep, personal gnosis does it for me every time!

My gut. Seriously - my gut. If my gut tells me that something is right, I'll follow its lead. Every time I've ignored it, I've suffered.

I suppose that it therefore comes under 1) in the list, but maybe as a subheading...

Otherwise, personal experience, people I trust, intuition, and some "facts" (however you wish to define the word "fact").

Divination and pathworking have also played a part - not sure where to lump them though. Intuition? Possibly.

Regardless of what Badgersmoon intended to mean, it's true of belief in general. Even accepting a mathematical proof means taking something on trust.

The fact that you see the thing written in a book, and the rest of the class is laughing as the teacher turns purple, doesn't mean you have to believe it. One of the U.S. States decided (some time in the past) to declare that the mathematical quantity "pi" was 3. In defiance of the obvious, it was still a question of belief, for them.

To use your example though, the case of the houseplants is not a belief. It's a reproducible fact. If were to consistently summon your omnipotent omniscient intangible invisible pink unicorn on News at Ten he (she?) would also cease to be a belief. Once belief can be proved, ergo it is no longer a question ofo belief.


Thanks for brining that up. I guess choice was implicit as a pre-requisite of all of them, although I hadn't formulated it
BM
xx

Dear Quibbler,
Point taken, but if I can get into specifics for a moment and use an example: contemporary sources mention, or certainly hint at the existence of some religious fanatic calling himself Jesus of Nazareth, and the emergence of a weird new Judaic sect called christianity. The existanec of the man himself could be said to be a historical fact. Where the beleif comes in is what you make of that fact.

To argue the point further, the phrase "established historical fact" could itself be said to be misleading (not that I meant it to be ) since history cannot be proved. E.g. there are people who deny the existence of the Nazi destruction of the Jews. They do not beleive an established historical fact.
BM
xx

I think mine is mainly 1, 3, 4 and 6.

I'm having a bit of a spiritual overhaul at the moment which is exciting and distressing at the same time. I am starting to call into question why I believe some of the things I do, and identify sneaky remaining patches of christian thinking (such as divine retribution and personal guilt), superstition, and things which I "believe" just because I want them to be true, or because it is an appealing or readily understandable label to be able to show to others. I'm finding a lot of the input on this forum very helpful in one way or another at the moment.

I really resent the pseudo christian upbringing I had. Both my parents were spiritually dead, but I still paid lip service to christianity at school and went through a christian patch in my teens. It wasn't until I found my Pagan path that I realised how secularized and institutionalised it is in the UK and I felt really stupid. Practising Christians don't annoy me but the whole Christmas, Easter, St George, St Patrick round of celebrations without genuine belief or intent grips my shit.

Sometimes I come across fellow Pagans and think "You're crazier than a sackful of arseholes" but I don't think it's my responsibility or right to point that out to them.

mines mainly one at the moment, but I think all the numbered points in some way contribute to our belief system.

fizz

Do you ever meet any Pagans and think "You're NOT crazier than a sack of arseholes"?
BM
xx

Wibble.

I believe the correct term for such a collection of objects is 'a parliament'.

Or a congregation?

Convocation?
BM
xx