I started on my pagan path with books on wicca and that was when i first heard about scourging, i know what scourging is i just want to know what peoples thoughts are on the subject.

The reason why i ask is because i went to the Halloween bash this weekend and i noticed that many stalls had scourges. I have never used it in ritual and never really needed to and also because i dont want to as i have tattoos on my back and wouldnt want them tho be destoryed with cut marks if any do appear with scourging.

Just really want to know if people do do scourging and why and what experiences have you had?

just curious really.

I've only heard of the use of it for three different situations: torture and punishment, mortifying the flesh ( that's the usual religious use of it) and BDSM.

I must admit I've never associated it with paganism . The only other 'condition' I would think it might apply to is for people who wish to attain an 'altered state' through pain.

Frankly, I can think of better ways

Marto

The story I heard was that Gardner could not use various other means of reaching a higher consciousness (ie drugs and wild dancing) due to his asthma and various illnesses, so he chose the 'flogging' route. However, Wiccans do stipulate light flogging, and I would be interested how they would reach any state of higher consciousness being tickled by a scourge. Each to their own though.

Gardner also stipulated tying the neophyte up before their initiation. I see a touch of bondage in there myself, but Wiccans may disagree.

I have to hold my hands up here.

I freely admit to thinking(not so secretly) that the nudity and scourging bits of Wicca were just bits that Mr Gardner found particularly appealing.

I mean, come on...the British climate isn't exactly conducive to prancing around nekkid without catching hyperthermia!

As far as I'm aware, Wiccans use scourging mainly as a purification technique during ritual. Not being Wiccans myself I don't know whether this is a symbolic act to focus the mind and a preparation for ritual or whether the whipping is harder and thus leading to an altered state through pain.

In Vodou there's a nasty-looking whip called a Chire Ayizan, which is made by teasing out a palm frond into thin strips. It's used, so I hear, to enforce ritual discipline in the Djevo - the room in which new members of the priesthood are sequestered for a week as part of their initiation.

To paraphrase Terry Pratchett, the occasional hedgehog also provides pause for thought.

Gardner was a naturist - well known fact. I don't think his predilection for being whipped had much to do with that though. Naturism doesn't automatically equal BDSM.

Not to mention the five-fold kiss

I thought it was because Gardner was asthmatic, and couldn't use incense and stuff like that. I would presume that it would be the light, repetative slapslap that would induce a trance-like state. I can't imagine anything that actually hurt would help reach a trance state. Although, I have heard of transcending pain, but I am not sure I would want to do it by choice.

According to some , it's because Gerald never got over his Irish Nanny

I don't know. I've had injuries in which the pain lasted for a long time. I can't truthfully say I felt anything remotely 'transcendent' about it. I don't know about anyone else, but when I drop something on my foot or re-injure my knee, I don't see god or think " Wow, that was spiritual"

Marto - hard case, I guess

Speaking as someone that went further than most into the body modification thing - it's easier than you would think.

How much further? Not a sex change, sorry, gender reassignment?

Dear Elswyth,



So that's why you Heathen folk were always setting fire to monasteries and the like in the old days. It wasn't because you were stark, grim, bold warriors intent on spreading terror and winning undying fame. It was because ye were cauld, puir wee souls .

Best Wishes,

John Macintyre

In my experience a rope or leather cat & nine tails has been used rather than a scourge that's made with anything sharp, so unless someone whips you extremely hard it's unlikely to produce any lasting marks.
I've also heard the rumour that Gardner was rather keen on the use of the scourge - apparently it cultivates feelings of love between the giver and receiver!



On the contrary, the more it hurts, the more heightened and lasting state of trance. Self harmers report feelings of euphoria (though I'm certainly not suggesting anyone tries that) due to the adrenaline rush, and I suspect that receiving/ self-inflicting pain by choice gives one a sense of control - if I accidentally drop something on my toe I'm much more likely to react in the other fight/flight response way of crying and feeling shaky. It's thought in wicca and in chaos magick (maybe also in other traditions that I'm unaware of) to be one of the more controllable methods of achieving a trance state: you can choose how far you go & when it stops (remember your safe word boys & girls), as opposed to the use of drugs, where you have to wait for the substance to metabolise before you can come down.

Unless you're planning on becoming a Wiccan then it's not something to waste time worrying about. The use of the scourge within Wicca is documented, but like many things in life, until you've experienced it then it is hard to understand.

You might find it more enlightening to read about controlled blood flow and brain releases of pleasure-inducing chemicals such as endorphins, from a medical perspective rather than reading 'pagan' books.

Rhiannon

Well, you do find that people who enjoy BDSM and identify as submissives will frequently report going into a quiet, euphoric trance-like state known as sub-space while they're being dominated or are receiving pain through floggings etc.

I can testify that the scourging during Wiccan initiation isn't always light! that was just a bit too painful.

On a slightly more personal note, I do recall that the most extraordinary sexual experience I've ever had was following a bit of scourging. Yeah, I know - too much information! But, boy.... um...words fail me.

it doesnt sound as if it could be effective, but it is.

it isnt intended to be painful let alone damage tattoos on your back (i have several on my back and they still look as good)

the idea is to scourge repeatedly with a set rhythym, the 'beat' combined with the medium hardness scourging (not oo light, not too hard - just right - takes practice) can induce trance like states.

with time and experince you can not only induce it in others but also tell when it is having an effect. that is something that happens with time in a coven setting.

dont worry about trying it on your own - the key is in getting someone esle to get the pace and allow yourself to go with it.

Well, I've pierced a fair few body parts myself, have had flesh tunnels, tattoos and even scarification. I did used to want my tongue splitting however I've gone off that idea now.




Now this is why you're the head of the PF isn't it? Because out of all the non-Heathens I know, you are the first to have figured out the true reasons why we went after the monasteries. Yes the gold was a nice sweetener to the pot but after you've sat in an open boat from Norway or Denmark, you want to get bloody warm!!!!

Never done any scourging myself - sounds billy bonkers to me However, thinking about it I do enjoy the state that prolonged tattooing induces. I never think of this as real pain as such though. I found that when I was feeling nice and dreamy my tattooist would stop and make me have a fag / can of coke (yeuch !!) to perk me up out of it

hmmmm now scourging should be done in a controlled atmosphere for the effects of the pain to take you to a heightened state.

depending on the person will depend on how they react to the sensation of pain. having 'worked' in BDSM some people will get a much heightened sexual pleasure. on the other hand you get those who get just a heightened sensation of being.

personally im a total baby. i hate pain. but i have to live with it everyday. so for me its finding ways to stop pain normally a visit to the physio ends with me being a total chatterbox and space cowboy till the pain abates a bit.

scourging is one of the painful ways to get heightened. you can also get to the same meditative state with a rythmic slap of the paddle or the tawse.

as i said everyone needs something different. John Odin would like me to point out the sight of a whip in this house and he runs for cover not his or my thing.

if scourging helps then use it just make sure it is done by someone who knows what they are doing or get in touch you never know i might go back into business

Not tried any scourging etc. But anything that releases endorphins can lead to some kind of transcendence.
When I have a really full-on migraine my body goes into endorphon overdrive although I don't notice until afterwards. Not every time but now and again after a bad attack I get so high it wakes me from my drug-induced coma and I am floating. I think it must be when the migraine stops suddenly before my body has a chance to readjust endorphin-flow.
In a perverted kind of way I sometimes welcome a migraine on the off-chance i'll get that high again.
I have been reading The Endorphin Effect to some good use, have managed a couple of good sessions with that.
BM
xx
P.S. My boyfriend is prone to give me the odd spank in passing and I find it strangely comforting. Must be the Master/Slave implications. I'm his bitch.