I'm jumping off the scourging question here. Please remember I am a poor benighted Atheist with no access to the deity phone

I've noticed a disconnection or difference (?) between what people say they believe and how they may act on those beliefs.

I'm trying to articulate this so as not to get people's knickers in a twist because it's a serious inquiry.

Many people claim to be in contact, some constantly, with their deities. Others seem to be able to jump on and off the 'Astral' (whatever that is) like it's an escalator. Others lay claim to being able to 'control energies' at will. In other words, 'Metaphysical contact' doesn't seem to be a problem.

So why would those who are already in this situation even need to 'alter' their state except for recreational reasons?

Thanks,

Marto

Maybe it's because of their "altered states" that they are able to do these things.
I find much of what you pointed out in the above difficult to do, but I also find altered states are more difficult for me to reach as well even to the extent that meditation still eludes me. I used to be able to meditate but since I suffered with depression I have been unable to do it to any great degree of success it's like my mind has kind of locked the doors for me and hidden the key.

I am going to be careful Marto so we don't get at cross purposes. Can you clarify a wee bit? The last sentence, why would we who say we have 'metaphysical' contact or ability 'need' to do it by using a tool such a scourging or drugs or meditation or trance (for example)? And that because we need to use a device/focus/state altering tool etc. when we can already do it, it is recreational if we do use such?
Unless I have misunderstood you, the answers may be quite simple. In my case, best to be individual in this explanation, my awareness of such a state is always there. I have to use analogy or metaphor, never sure which is which. If I have acute hearing, I may hear deeper bass and higher notes than many. I have to focus on normal range to drive, hold a conversation, even think. Life has patterns and rhythms in definite ranges. So if I want to listen to whales or bats I need to cut out the normal ranges to concentrate, and don't forget also, using the same analogy, my hearing is enhanced perhaps in [i]all[i/] ranges so I may have to work extra hard to cut out the 'normal' range. A tool or method may assist in this. It isn't recreational, it is focus or intent and purpose.
I will leave it there for now in case I have misunderstood.

I agree with Herne. If you can do it naturally already there may be a case for wanting to get deeper and get more 'real' experiences using artifical means. If you can't do it natually then it may be your only means though i disagree (oh there's a thing!!) that drug induced anything provokes real experience. The most OTT people in the obelix trouser brigade i have ever met have mostly been using artificial means to get to where they want to go and i don't know why but these (IME) seem to be more convinced of what they experience and exuberant about it. Their experiences from what they say seem to be more vivid than those that do it naturally. In the same way those that are naturals, or rather have learnt to do what they do naturally seem to be more balanced and solid lacking the need to shout about it all the time (again IME). In paganism too (IME) there seems to be this thing that because the shamans etc. were supposed to have used drugs then it must be the right thing to do forgetting that it was a tribal thing and a religiious thing and quite remote from the idea of an individual sitting in a cosy flat in wiggan with music on the stereo and a full stomach bombed out of his mind on mushies. But then i have always believed that if you want to drug yourself up then do it. Don't try to find excuses. A lot of people seem to need to justify to feel conmfortable with what they do.

I shall take a chance and explain using direct examples and hope we don't get bogged in disbelief or need to explain the reasoning! Faith or experience can lead to an acceptance of things that one's own rational mind may find unusual. You will have to take some things for granted conceptually but I may be willing to interpret behaviour further if you wish.
I recently decided to work a moon cycle of magick to affect a circumstance I am involved in. A drug addict is living in a very real hell, partly through poor choice and partly through consequences of inappropriately prescribed drugs, fear, coercion and abuse. She has asked me to intervene magickally to help her get off the addiction. For a number of reasons I have refused this for a year and a half. But of late she has attempted suicide, is at risk of further coercion from people she is frightened of, is involved in an illegal drug supply ring including doctors and police, has pawned all her possessions and gambled her income and savings when unable to afford or obtain enough drugs to match the growing addiction from her usual sources, she has also developed pneumonia resistant to antibiotics, and more. She is unable to get 'help' via mainstream intervention, having tried that, and cannot or will not risk 'informing'. She is also shit scared! She is physically and emotionally very unstable. Withdrawal will exacerbate that in the short term. And also, short term, finding hope and positive results also works against her in that it stimulates the same areas that have been addicted.
I prepared a ritual (not my usual practice) that was detailed in intent and complicated in considering the various ramifications of freeing her of addiction and from various influences. It is called, working a balance'. It very, very brief explanation, it calls upon the Land on which she walks to support her, assist her etc. It also offers harm and destruction to any that oppose her in her purpose of recovery and freedom. To do that, I had to offer myself as sacrifice as it required perhaps, the death of some.
Now as I have stated before, I have access, not always at will, to what I and some others here would recognise or describe as magickal energies to intervene and cause and affect particular designs in the lives (and deaths) of others. You don't just wish it and it happens, it is like composing a piece of music or poetry that includes balances and harmonies, emotions and further to that, consequences.
I didn't use drugs or scourging! But I did, in order to focus and control use various tools and materials that correspond to my own POV and magickal experience. I used a stone circle, the earth, her blood, some of the drug, water, a consecrated blade and an arrow with crows feathers. Oh yeah, and my own anger and emotion. Not just anger though, compassion and a lot of consideration of consequences and possibilities.
In the first weeks I renewed the energy and focus and changed some parameters.
One of the antagonists had a heart attack and remains bedridden and incoherent. Others have withdrawn contact from her of their own accord. the doctor most involved is under scrutiny (not reported by me). She is now taking the drug orally, on half dosage and cutting back the injections (needles are an addiction in themselves), she is also considering a couple of creative hobbies, is discussing after twenty years of silence a number of factors in her abusive psychology and much more. she even laughed once recently, the first time in more than a year.
i couldn't just do such a complicated ritual and balancing over time without being able to focus on and enter or perceive the metaphysical realms in which I was creating the shape of events. I didn't scourge or do drugs but I certainly had to concentrate my energy and will and clarity. And it was not recreational!
I also drove up the road recently with her in the car next to me, and in the space of two kilometers there were three dead crows. I have only seen one in twenty years before and I look for and notice such things.
As I noticed the third crow, I wondered about it, frowning at the thought of three dead crows and wondering if I should interpret it as a threat to me as witch, (remember I used the crow arrow for specific reasons) and as I was driving, I entered without intent into trance which is akin to an overlay of vision and awareness and as I have experienced it all my life I recognise and accept it and can handle it usually, so I just slowed a bit and 'listened'. It came to me that the Land had accepted her and my working. The crows were a sign of dark influences in her psyche that were defeated. I was unsure so I used the 'connection' to ask for a sign to assure me. After all, I put my life on the line in this working!
As I thought that, an animal ran into the road just ahead of me, I slowed further, it was a hare. it ran across and another hare met it from the paddock on the other side and they met nose to nose and then i was past and the 'state' lifted, apart from the fact that i was making jokes (without realising as i thought i was being as normal until it was pointed out to me) and acting as high as a kite for about half an hour.
Sooooooo. If I missed your point, that was a wasted effort. if you want to call it all coincidence and suspect psychological manipulation and insanity, it was also a wasted effort. but in fact i am endeavouring to reach across the apparent divide between our otherwise differently intelligent understanding of the Universe we both inhabit Marto.
and as btw the crows and hare were goddess on her behalf, nothing much to do with me, except as witch.

I'm going to go at this from a rather round about way, so prepare for your coma now

My father was an artist. From the time I was small, I would sit in his studio and watch him paint and he would explain to me why one uses certain colours to get certain effects. I didn't understand that he was actually teaching me to 'see' on a different level. We tend to take our senses for granted in that they come 'fully informed'. I believe for some they do, but not for many. Anyway, we used to take this trip every year and stop at this cafe in a canyon. There was this rock cliff and my father and I would marvel at all the colours on the the rock face. Later in life, whenever I made the trip with someone else and we stopped there, the inevitable reply when I explained why I was staring at this cliff-face was " It's just grey with some green plants on it". The people never saw the blues, mauve, deep purples, reds, umbers, the many shades of green etc., etc. . Until. One time I made the trip with someone who was also an artist. When I came out of the cafe they were just staring at that cliff face with awe and remarked on all the colours.

Same with music. My family 'taught' me how to listen to music. I don't think very many people really like opera or classical music starting in the 'Romantic' period when they first hear it. But if they are taught what to listen for, one day it just 'clicks' and it's a whole new world ( mind, I'm just speaking for myself, I'm not saying it's the same for anyone else).

So, when I first took hallucinogens , do you know what 'altered'? Nothing. I found that I could already 'see' the things other people were seeing. ( O.K., I admit finding out that lettuce is still breathing when on the plate was a revelation or just a drug badly cut with something else). Every drug I tried ( Yes, I was a , shall we say, 'adventurous' youth? was the same - boring and actually, I found it disrupted the 'natural' flow of my senses and was an irritant.

Well, that's just writing about 'perception', so perhaps it doesn't apply?

What about traveling about the much heard of but by many never experienced 'Astral'. Well, I've experienced or tried just about every thing that supposedly can induce an 'altered state' and...nada. Again, perhaps it's just my physiology.

Pain is aversive to the human body - the body doesn't like it. Naturally, there is a small store of endorphins and ekephalins to help counteract pain. But prolonged, debilitating pain causes the body to habituate to it and stops sending out the nice stuff. I wonder how many women here found the pain of giving birth 'transcendent' after hours of labour? It's one thing to get a tat., quite another to give birth or have surgery or break bones.

There is another thing to consider about the 'religious' use of pain for an altered state. Before the advent of antibiotics, sepsis could kill. Mortifying the flesh or seeking a 'transcendent' state had a small disclaimer attached - the altered state may be death. I'm not using hyperbole. So if one flogged themselves for religious purposes, that had the possibility inherent in it of actually dying for what the person believed in. Now that's 'faith'

The second part of this is the deity thing. I've noticed that some of the same people that claim to hob-nob with their deities on an ongoing basis may also engage in 'state altering' behavior.

Why? If one can have a chin-wag with their deity at any time, why bother?

Is it to try and access the deities 'realm'? Serious question.

So you see the genesis of my question. I believe we come fully equipped to experience all those things which are within reach given the boundaries of our human form ( for instance, we cannot see in the infra-red scale - doesn't mean it isn't there).

I think we just need to , hmmm, educate? ourselves to the maximum , of trying to find out just how inclusive this package we call 'human' ...is. I'm also having trouble believing that people can transcend their 'humanness' . But the biggest question to me is :

WHY would anyone WANT to given how wonderful and acutely attuned to our environment we are given the millions of years that have gone into the creation of what we call 'human'.

Marto

No, you didn't miss my point Jape and I thank you for that very detailed explanation. But I do have a question and it is NOT meant as the 'negatives' you often accuse me of. Do you think it possible that what you went through acted as a series of semiotics guiding YOU to where you had to psychologically be ( given your burden) and was specific to you, or do you think it would be the same for anyone else? It's an important question in that it separates out, if you will, what is 'real' in general and what is UPG. There is no value judgment there, it's just a question. Sometimes when people can access information outside of themselves, it helps them even though the information is only interpreted a certain way by the person experiencing it and has no further 'meaning' beyond that. More of 'kick' to information already stored in the subconscious. If you see what I mean. That's not a problem if it works, but I wonder if 'meaning' can be assigned after the fact. And what if it doesn't work? Does it still apply?

Marto

Dear Marto,



That sounds rather hazardous. I hope you've carried out a proper Risk Assessment and been provided with appropriate PPE first?



For myself I 'believe' in (which is to say I trust in my memory of experience) the Gods and Goddesses, in spirits of place, and in sacred connection with the earth generally, but I'm only truly present in full awareness of these when in an altered state of consciousness. A state which sometimes happens 'spontaneously' (including external causes) and is sometimes intentionally induced through various ritual forms. That, presumably, is why I feel it to be a spiritual 'need'.

I'm puzzled by your use of 'recreational' above. It doesn't seem to have a bearing on the attitudes or motivation of those I know who work with this.

It's hard to describe what altered consciousness means, as it seems to involve understandings of identity, relationship and meaning from somewhere much deeper than the rational/analytical/intellectual level which operates language. It's also a state which, for me at least, is not an off/on phenomena but one which presents in varying degrees of intensity depending on the circumstances. And finally, however the rational mind may seek to analyse the experience later, it does not feel like a purely mental/psychological state in itself, but one in which we know/feel/understand through bone, nerve, glands,and flesh as well as, perhaps more than, mind; in which the distinctions between 'self' and 'other' may well be somewhat different from those in our conventional awareness. I hope that makes some kind of sense.

Floundering back from these mystical depths towards the reassuringly familiar terrain of bad jokes: Had you ever considered that it's traditional to make offerings to the Gods & Goddesses at 'alters'?

BB,

John Macintyre

My use of the word 'recreational' was not meant disrespectfully. I doubt that many that go down to their local are going for 'transcendent' experiences, ( in spite of who you might luck out with ) yet many cultures use alcohol for this reason.

I also believe in genius loci, I've just never needed to be in an 'altered state' to experience it. Of course, it could just be my imagination.

I've also had some VERY interesting experiences, but none were facilitated by deliberately altering my state of consciousness. One quite interesting one came about because I had my 'consciousness' altered by a bloody ( literally) car accident. So It's not like I haven't experienced odd states, it's just I don't understand the need to induce them.

The reason I mentioned all that boring shite about art was that it 'stuck' with me. If one depends on 'inducing' a state, then what happens when it passes? Are people then cut off from their transcendent experiences, deities and what not? But that can't be because many of the same people claim to communicate with their deities on an ongoing basis. This is a contradiction to me.

Because I experience or see something once is not enough for me to build a cognitive structure ala a 'religion' or 'spiritual' belief on. But that's just skeptical Atheist me.

Marto

Dear Marto,

In response to your follow-on post with it's interesting points about artistic and other analogous informed perceptions, I must stress that I don't see any of this as 'transcending' the human. At least not in the sense that transcendence has commonly come to be used to imply a superior, exalted, state of being that has 'risen above' the mundane/material cosmos. I don't believe anything can be external to the cosmos. Altered states of consciousness are another form of perception/experience and the 'transcendence' known within them is perhaps a way in which a mortal being can, fleetingly and intuitively, grasp something of the awesome, vast, sacred and dynamic complexity which is the cosmos. Much of which we could never hope to perceive by other means. In that sense, I believe that any conscious being embodies some capacity for 'transcendence' - within, through and in relation to the cosmos.

BB,

John Macintyre

And THAT is what I'm in a very prolix manner trying to get at. If it is already accessible to us, why the need for a 'jump' start, some of which can be harmful? Skeptic Atheist though I be, I am in awe of the cosmos and it's complexity and see no need to 'transcend' it, I don't even believe it can be done. Who knows what 'the cosmos' even entails? Just being in another state ( besides Kansas) doesn't mean a person has left their 'human' capabilities and limitations behind.

Marto

Can't disagree with you there. I quite "like" pain in a funny way. In addition to the benefit of lots of tatts and piercings I like the challenge it presents and the effects of the endorphins. I like going to the dentists and have never had an anaesthetic injection. I have broken my wrist and that was quite painful. I hate going to the doctors and once removed my own ingrown toenail with a swiss army knife blade and pliers which was also quite painful (and messy )I thought I would be able to cope well with labour as I'm used to relaxation and meditation exercises and have quite a high pain threshold. I was completely rubbish - partly I think to be fair due to Mr S being sent away for the night when we had practised the relaxation techniques together, and partly due to having an induction which is supposed to make it worse - but ended up having an epidural. It was completely hideous !!

I don't really like altering my state. gave up booze long ago as it was alteirng my state into that of a total arsehole. Have never been into drugs. Gave up nicotine and caffeine in an effort to be as unaltered as possible

Dammit, I still can't quite grasp what you are getting at Marto! My problem, not blaming your skill in communication! I thought John Mac explained further and better what I was drawing an analogy to. Please continue this discussion.

I don't think the crows died just to show me I am a clever witch and that the hares appeared to just convince me further of that! But I do think the timing, coincidence etc. is relevant not just a semiotic pattern I interpreted to support my UPV (Something personal viewpoint?).

The paradox here is a turning point in acceptance and faith and we don't need to construct a religion around it, I am NOT very religious. There are religions based on such and a wealth of material about correspondences and aspects that fit but they are not 'mine' just what I accept as part of the whole of magick and belief in which I am just a part. In this case an active and consciously active part.

Of course I do have these symbols in parts of my experience and even in part of the symbolism of the working I shaped but I don't have that Goddess form as part of my direct experience so yes I interpreted it using my understanding and yes I interpreted it in manner supportive of the work. But that doesn't invalidate it.

On other occasions such interpretation has come through others unconnected to any conscious knowledge of my work or personal symbolism. That is what has led me to my belief in main, that others have had insight and knowledge of specifics within my own workings or life that they could not know except through a 'metaphysical' connection or intervention. Sometimes people on the other side of the planet even, sometimes people that were previously seemingly in opposition, in other words with no particular wish, will or reason to be involved except as they acknowledge and honour their own path where it has met mine, and where we accept we are part of larger patterns unfolding.

When you dream or perhaps astral travel an event, and someone who is in, for example, a forum but has never spoken to you or know of you personally, then reports to you the dream or event that is coincident in many points beyond just wishful interpretation, well then you start to accept and listen out! And then you can start to use that ability.
I could probably dig through memory and find examples where another person could substantiate such a claim. But difficult to prove as I would not have necessarily recorded the events by affidavit before the contact!

Have I missed the point again?

You seem to talk of reality as an objective fixed state. There are 'rules' of physics and so on that do 'fix' certain states but so much is not fixed, and does not need to be. In fact much of magickal behaviour relies on that! It wouldn't work otherwise.

Do we need to discuss 'reality' - it seems central to a lot of your posts. I am really trying hard to understand you. I also see the amount of recent skepticism (not just you Marto) as potentially harmful to some who are in MY paradigm.

Ok, so, athiest and no clue about making contact with gods. However. Altered states for working. Yes I do on occasion use an altered state. Sometimes through a form of meditation, other times I use drugs.

Why? Why not. Seriously. I like where it puts me, I like how it is a much faster route to that place than meditation and I love how clear it makes everything. Much more complete that meditating, like Jape says it shuts out the world in a much tighter way. I use it when doing workings that are complex, or difficult, or take a lot of my energy.



This comment baffles me a bit TBH.

I dont think any magick worker who uses drugs fits the last bit of that discription at all. Why would you think it does? I think anyone who seriouslt uses drugs to achieve something altered for magick or "spirit walking" or whatever they call it is a far cry from some students having an alternative saturday night.



Who is making excuses? Just because you dont get why people do something doesnt mean its pathetic druggies making an excuse.

Can I just wander to the other side of the topic for a moment and wonder aloud "Why can we not see and experice all the states all the time?"
I think the answer to this is twofold.
1. Perhaps we could as children who look upon the world with wide eyed hunger, and our training, Artistic, Meditiation, Pain, Drugs ect are ways to see and experice that world again. But through the Eyes of Adults this time so its a litte diffrent a little less New and a little more Magical-becuse it dosen't fit in with day2day reailty.
2. As a Safety aspect maybe?Bear with me as this might make sense. Alterd States are like drug/booze trips or even in my own experice Jet Lag, Your bodys here but your mind is out of sync. For some sociological reason its been determined we have to function in a certain way in the "real" world. Drive a Car, go to Work, Raise Children, Pay Bills ect.
I've worked in various situlations where I have had to focus intently on the task in hand (running industrial machinery) else it would have been easy to finish a shift minus a couple of digits. Like most people I find it easier to focus on the real world rather than the alterd world.
The state of focusing on the Work/Children/Bills has become the defualt setting?
The state of focusing on otherthings has become the "alterd" state. Hey thats how the world aroudn has become and up to certan piont we have allowed it to happen. Untill some of us have forgotten the tools-as Herne says its a locked door. Maybe the mind is protecting itself, I'm failry sure if the universe reveals itself in all its glory then its a recipie for Psychosis. Thats why the universe reveals itself little by little.
And theres the Conspairacy Theorist side of me that says "If we were all communing with Gods on the Astal, then who would sweep the streets?"
Its the job of the Magicisn to venture into the light (and darkness) and bring back stuff that is intergrated into the mainstream world.

Hey Woozle, again this is interpretation of what is real or which view of reality is effective, and for what! You said "i disagree (oh there's a thing!!) that drug induced anything provokes real experience.'
Its a bit like what I am asking Marto, where are the lines drawn, rules set that state what is 'real experience' or meaningful experience or 'real in general'? I accept it is your point of view and supported in your own experience, but, well, that is all it is and of course there are others that differ in experience or understanding. Doesn't it all get a bit circular sometimes?

You're probably right. All i have is personal experience. I suppose it depends on the level of chemical alterations in the brain. If a 'natural' experience is the result of 'natural' chemistry then maybe a few external chemicals might boost the experience. Personally i want to get there under my own steam as most of the the experiences with drugs i have had you could find in most text books whereas most natural experiences have been completely different and more real to me.
But for me what it mostly boils down to is 99% of the people who i have met that have take drugs for a reason took them recreationally too. I see that as a drug user experimenting. Whereas one person i know only uses them for magickal purposes and has never taken them for recreation. That strikes me as a more valid form of experimentation. But it's personal.

I actually do understand what you are saying here Woozle. I can see why you would feel that way. But... and I am not trying to be mean when I say this, its a little... snobby? PLEASE dont get me wrong. I am not saying you are being superior, or looking down on people. I can see its a perfectly valid point of view. However, it is just a personal view of the morality of an action if you get my drift? It doesn't actually alter the validity of the action. Hmmm.... not sure if I am expressing this correctly. There is nothing to say that someone who uses drugs for recreation, can not have an equally powerful "magickal purpose" and experience as someone who only uses them on specific occasions. It is only that you feel thats "better".

Im not making an excuse for me using drugs. I do use drugs recreationally. I like to. However. I also like on occasion to use drugs to do a working. "Stoned" is not my everyday state. Its not even something I do every weekend. But on occasions I get some grass, and if I dont have a working that needs done, I smoke it for fun and if I do, I use it for that purpose, sometimes have some left over and use that for fun too! It doesnt mean Im making excuses and it doesnt mean that if I were only ever to use my drugs for magical purposes that those experiences would be better or more "correct".

Meh... I hope I've made sense.

Given my preexisting point of view I don't think I can speak intelligently on communion with supernatural beings.

On the virtues on using externalities such as drugs or pain to alter our perceptions however it might be simplistic to assume that states of perception line up in a hierarchy and that an artist (for example) who takes drugs to compose music is 'raising' his state of perception. The states of perception an individual may experience are probably ordered laterally as well as hierarchically, more like branches on a tree than rungs on a ladder.

The way in which we process sensory input is incredibly complex and perception filters are undoubtedly contingent on many chance factors in our environment, upbringing and evolutionary history. So who is to say that the states of perception we can reach unaided are any more valid or natural than those which we can reach with the aid of external stimuli.

Don't take that as endorsement of drug use but i think the line of reasoning put forward so far in this thread is unlikely to yield a logically consistent argument against psychotropic activities. I would advocate responsible and informed behavior in such areas (although I accept that is a little vague).

I would re-iterate that these are the views of an objective rationalist, I have no idea what bearing such observations would have on interaction with the supernatural.

Regards

DM

Nope I get what you are saying and its much more succinctly the point I was trying to make really.

I don't use pain to enter an altered state. Discovering the altered state thing through piercing was purely accidental and a little fact that I stored for later reference.

Piercing was something I liked. I like the asthetics of it still and every now and again I do stick my old piercings back in. The altered state thing was just a happy discovery

I find this fascinating but can't add much as I don't use drugs or anything else to enter an altered state. I use drugs to get high, and alcohol to get intoxicated and any other stimulants occasionally for recreational purposes. But no connection with any magical work or with and connection with my gods.

But, as I say, fascinating discussion.

Just an aside, it can work back the other way, you can deliberately enter an 'altered state' (fuck i hate using other peoples' language all the time) to deal with pain. When these rationalists and scientists work that out (which they only will if they experience it) they will start to understand that so called rational reality etc etc is nothing much, just one part of a dynamic universe in which so called 'unreality' is more than possible, it is powerful, instructive, and creative, without being antisocial, destructive or leading to depravity, sin and chaos. Pain management by 'altered state' is in fact far less harmful than farber/bayer synthetic opiates flooding and repressing the central nervous system, and the scientific reality of chemical dye poisons, leading to mustard gas warfare, then to synthetic drugs and the insane world so many rationalists support.
Just thought I'd add that. I haven't had my morning stimulant yet, lol.

I don't enter an "altered state", I just think differently, using a different part of the brain maybe. It's like the difference between looking at a book and reading it, you don't need to change to do it, you just use a different process.

Whoa! generalize much? I consider myself a scientist and as far as I know don't have any plans for world domination or annihilation on this week . One could as well say " When those accountants finally realize that all those beans they are counting all add to the military-industrial complex that feeds the ravenous war machine, maybe the world will be better!!!". The botanist that strives to save endangered plants, the astronomer that charts space, the geneticist that strives to understand the mechanisms of disease, etc., etc.. These are NOT bad people . The term 'scientist' just means someone who engages in scientific research - nothing more. They are just people and like other people, there are different kinds, good, bad, indifferent. A scientist would be the first to tell you " NEVER posit causality and never use words like 'proof' and 'truth'. Science is about relationships between things or phenomenon, not about some kind of nailed-down 'reality'. We couldn't even begin to try.

As for 'altered states', it would not be possible to survive if one was constantly changing their subjective 'reality' , artificially or no. Look up 'Homeostasis'. We are hard wired to maintain an optimum state for survival. People that cannot control their subjective reality tend to be in the care of others, I'm afraid.

In terms of pain management , the use of chemicals to alleviate pain is ages old, botanicals ( of which 97% of our general medicines are synthesized from) have been used for centuries. I find it hard to believe that someone who was giving birth or had just suffered a compound fracture could just somehow snap into an 'altered state' mode and feel no pain.

Pain is actually one of our best defense mechanisms. When one reads about those people who are born with the inability to feel pain and how difficult it makes their life, it's an eye-opener.

On the flip side, it's also been shown that the longer pain continues, the more debilitating it becomes or, a person can go into shock and die. Me? I'd rather get healthy quickly even if it means an analgesic . I have never seen anyone who could simply 'turn off' extreme and prolonged pain by entering into some kind of 'altered state' and I do believe that if someone could, they should share this information with the world. Seriously.

Marto

This makes sense to me, Marto. I have such a natural bent towards homeostasis that I find it hard to even take my clothes off to get into my nice cosy bed at night, rather than sit for hours in front of the computer getting chillier and chillier. Oh no, that's not homeostasis, it's inertia. Not always such a useful thing.

I agree that control is important, and I doubt if anyone would get anything useful out of an altered state of consciousness in which they had no control over what happened. Or would they? There are stories of people being swept up into mystical experiences that change their lives - as a one-off, usually.

I remember as a child, realising that dreams are different to everyday life when my parents named my unpleasant dreams 'nightmares'. I sought control: I discovered (or thought I did) that if I went over the recurrent scenario in my conscious mind before I went to sleep, I wouldn't get the nightmare that night.

I also tried a couple of times to become lucid during an unpleasant dream, and wake myself up. I remember noticing how my dream would thwart me in this, by making it part of the dream - dreaming that it's only a dream and all you have to do is wake up, then waking up in your dream only to find you are still dreaming.

I find the topic of altered states of consciousness so huge and confusing, not to mention downright hard work, that I've never had any urge to experiment with psychotropics. What drugs I have experienced, have not led me to believe that further research would yield wonders.

Maybe we just use what we've got. If you have an affinity for certain drugs, you use them to bring about whatever result you are after. And if not, then obviously you can't, and you can't even imagine what it's like to be someone who can. Maybe it's all down to wiring and chemistry, like sex.

Hmmm... no, I think we're discussing two different things. There's CR and NCR - consensual reality (what you might term 'real' reality ) and non-consensual reality i.e. what most people say is purely subjective, for various reasons. I don't go with the purely objective approach because I've seen, too many times, NCR coincide between different people who had not conspired or colluded or influenced each other. There are also very, very many times when I read a post and know what the poster is saying could have been said by me. I admit the latter doesn't happen a lot, but that's because we don't actually discuss our otherworld experiences in depth a great deal, by comparison with discussing a host of other things.

And I'm not just talking pagans, either. As a Christian I gravitated to the Western mystical tradition, where I 'lived' for a large part of my Christian life, once I found it. The experiences translated across to paganism. And I've discussed similar experiences with people of other faiths.

I'd say your comment is absolutely true for people who constantly change their apprehension of CR, but not for those who live in both CR and NCR, and know the difference, even when the overlap is well nigh perfect.

Like Jape, I've been high as a kite simply due to an intense NCR experience. One of the most intense took place on a long drive. I've done that drive since - it's across some of the most testing terrain in England, and am surprised I didn't end up at the bottom of a steep valley. But I didn't. And no bushes, cats eyes, other drivers or the general public even came close to being injured. But there was a lot more to it than the drive, and it lasted a long time after I'd stopped driving. Despute having to stop off at a supermarket on the way.