what do people think about the usefulness of courses on paganism? is it useful? does it help a person to develop spiritually/emotionally and so on? Does knowing our distant past help us spiritually today? Do more modern pagan courses and/or training within, say, a coven provide the individual with spiritual development or is it just about gaining something eg social status within a group by acquiring knowledge/wisdom and so on.

Do you think that reflection whether in solitude or through conversation to be more useful in terms of spiritual development. Is solitary practice/communing/solitary ritual more useful?

there are lots of questions here, and I hope it will stimulate. For my part I prefer direct experience combined with reading, discussion but not within an organised group such as a coven or kindred or such to attain spiritual understanding and wisdom. I am not convinced that wisdom and knowledge are the same thing, which is why I am dubious about wisdom gained through 'doing a course'.

But what do other people think, would really welcome your thoughts on this.

fizz

This is a big can of worms. It depends on the person AND the course - one's ability or willingness to take in information as more or less formally taught by others and the quality of the material and those teaching. I think we do benefit from learning about our past, I think it helps in all kinds of ways today not just spiritually. That doesn't mean we should be living in the past, or even consistently trying to recreate it but there are a lot of lessons to be learned by learning about it, both in the way of reconnecting and thinking about a simpler life.

Saying that, I would personally go for straight history or archaelogical courses, but then that's my preference. Reading, watching, talking about, thinking and dreaming about how people used to live and work over the last few milennia is pretty much meat and drink to me and always has been, since a child. That to me means more to my spirituality than a formal course in how to be a pagan or witch, general or specifically pathed, but that's not to say they are not useful. Although maybe some " what not to do " courses would be a good idea

i personally would love to do a course on paganism but not wicca and thats all i seem to find on the net.

it would be hard as there are so many paths to chose from.

as i live in an out of the way place is hard to find courses on anything nevermind paganism, within a reasonable distance.

As Amanfred says, are there any?



I'd say the Wiccan thing is totally reliant on the emotional stature of the HP and HPS.

Other courses - I'm unconvinced as to the spiritual training they provide. At least the ones you have to pay for. But others may disagree.



It depends on the person. I'd tend towards a mix of that and personal guidance from someone who knows. The problem, as ever, is finding the right teacher.

I'm useless at providing any sort of advice on this as my training in accessing the place which has no religion was via another religion.

i am considering doing a course,im not too sure why to be honest,i think its because i feel like i need the structure that i would get from it ,ive done a limited amount of research on my own but i feel like im floundering around all over the place,i am an information junky and love gaining knowledge about different things

having said that i also believe that there is no greater lesson than experience and i dont think doing a course on its own would benefit me in any way,it will be a good starting point ,but any wisdom i gain (that will be a joke with my brainpower ) will be as a result of experiencing different things in the real world

Speaking as someone who teaches a lot of courses and workshops, I reckon they can be useful... but only up to a point.

Most of the courses we run are aimed at the beginner, and give a good overview of the topic we are covering, but they are really designed to be a starting point and not the be and end all of everything.

Every course we run, we always start off by saying we are only teaching our way of doing things, and there are many other ways out there - ours might not necessarily be the right way for everyone, so we try and encourage people to go and find out information by themselves as well.

Once people have got past the beginner stage, our courses are more like discussion groups rather than teachers and pupils, and these are often the most interesting... we end up getting as much out of the classes as everyone, and get some good debates going too!

And once people have got to the stage where they are looking for really in-depth information, we can run one to ones if we have the skills to do it, or refer them elsewhere. But by then, most people are capable of finding out and learning for themselves anyway without any help from us, lol... then they come back and teach us new stuff!

I would be curious to know what kinds of spiritual wisdom can be gained from doing a course. Whilst I can see the benifits of learning about things whether its a more academic course eg archaeology or a more specific course eg like a bible class or such. I can see the benifits of gaining awareness of different types of pagan groups. But is this 'knowledge' really helpful in developing a spiritual wisdom/integrity?

I suppose it might depend on the type of experience and the person, but would welcome all opinions.

I also suppose it depends on what we are seeking too.

fizz

Hello Fizzy,

A valid course in my opinion would be one where your individuality, thoughts and opinions are always respected and never dismissed or derided. The course should ask questions of yourself first and foremost. The only testing would be of yourself as you engage in dialogue with your Tutor and complete assignments in your own individual manner. The Tutor should be on hand always to answer any queries, quell any fears, doubts and anxieties. The 2 way interaction should allow for you to challenge them and vice versa. They should be ideally contactable by email, phone, by letter or occasionally in person if you so wish and as many times as you wish until youre ready to move on to the next assignment after fully understanding the previous one. You should always be given choice over coercion. The course would never be able to give you spiritual Wisdom that you didnt possess already. The course would only lead the way and enable you to find yourself. On the outer level the course should provide accurate information and provide challenging and stimulating projects that can be tested and tried alone, with the opportunity given to meet and work with the group too if so desired. Its important too that you can walk away from what is offered at any stage as well without any pressure and without ever being considered a failure. Ultimately you only get what youre prepared to put into such ventures. Its no good just reading literature all the time. There comes a point when you have to go out there and just do. A course should enable and motivate you to discover ways, test methods and challenge yourself in ways a book fails to do.

The Pagan Federation might be a good place to start. The Scottish Conference always seems to have interesting discussions but John MacIntyre (The New President !)would be the best person to ask as he is the fount of all knowledge and wisdom

BB from TTT

Totally agree with this- at some point the books/courses need to be put to one side for you to try it yourself.

I haven't done any formal courses- all I've learnt so far has been through reading folklore, local history, religious texts etc and then trying it. The most valuable thing for me has actually been to spend time in nature around where I live, sitting quietly and being receptive. My strongest experiences have come this way.

Discussion with like-minded people is useful to help clarify your experiences.

so if spiritual wisdom is not found in courses, then how do we acquire 'it'? is spiritual wisdom gained from the mundane/everyday world? and for that matter, what is spiritual wisdom?

all thoughts welcome.

fizz

just found this, there are two different courses. might give you an insight to things you want to take further.
http://www.pathcom.com/~newmoon/index.htm

Ahhhrrrm. Time. Experience. Taking every day as a lesson in itself and making them all count. You can't learn it all in a weekend course, if you're lucky you learn it over a lifetime.

Knowledge can be aquired, wisdom is something you either have or you don't.

Gawain:

[/quote]
Knowledge can be aquired, wisdom is something you either have or you don't.

[/quote]

I would put it that wisdom is displayed by how one puts the knowledge one gains to work.

I would also suggest to anyone 'searching' that they go back to the beginnings of what 'called' them to paganism in the first place and follow that. If it is merely a belief system to replace another, one can drown in the morass of information about other belief systems available and still not be any closer. Also, one may still carry ideas and expectations from prior belief systems and will be most attracted to those which mirror their previous experiences for good or bad. We tend to gravitate towards those areas we are most familiar with.

If one goes back and follows their initial inclinations it may lead them in the direction which would most answer to their search. For all one knows, it may be in a course , it may be in the forest and fields or a life event.

Marto

I'm not so sure that wisdom is a 'dont have/do have' sort of thing, I am completely different to what I was a few years, even more so ten years ago and so on. Whether that counts a spiritual wisdom, I don't know.

The tricky question is what is spiritual wisdom exactly. I've been trying to come with a definition of it for the last few days but i am blowed I can't put it into words precisely.

I've wondered whether spiritual wisdom does in fact originate in the way we handle life circumstances, our capacity to think with clarity seems to be important to me. so in that sense its bound up with the mundane world. but that doesn't mean it 'originates' there. It seems obvious that it originates from the self (or does it? those that believe in deity may differ). What is even more tricky, as a wobbling athiest (ie one that is not entirely sure, or has entirely made their mind up) is reconciling the spiritual with athiesm - I suppose it depends on the type of athiesm one adopts though. If athiesm, as seen as a rejection of deity only, then it is possible, I suppose to experience a sense of 'spiritualness'. But if an athiest completely rejects all notions of the otherside - ie sprites, wights etc. being spiritual, perhaps, becomes more difficult. but then that would depend on what we actually mean by 'spiritual' and 'wisdom'.

From what people have disclosed on this website who do have a relationship with a deity there seems to be an element of a lesson to be learned. Or not - I suppose it may depend on the deity and whether they wish to 'teach' something. Is this spiritual wisdom? is this one way, the way, in which spiritual wisdom is acquired. But then an equally obvious question is - are these 'lessons' spiritual lessons?

Anybody care to have a go at coming up with a definition, description, anecdotal stuff?

fizz.

Just eliminate or redefine the term 'spiritual'. After all, outside of a religious context it really is not definable anyway.

I am an atheist and find it no hindrance at all to my beliefs.

Marto

why do you find it indefinable? (I struggle with it too)I've wondered whether being 'spiritual' comes from day to day circumstances involving psychological processes (again obvious). It must involve some kind of inner reflection. perhaps, these basic processes leads on to awareness of other things that seem, may feel impossible (because they are not backed by science - UPG is an example).

wobbling along....

fizz