Hi all,

I have begun to do a little bit of reading about Druidry, since many of its philosophies and teachings seem to offer much of what I seek in my spiritual life. I was visiting the OBOD website and chanced upon their beliefs section; they start by saying that Druidism is largely free of dogma and fixed beliefs, which I find encouraging since I like to reserve the right to question things, including my beliefs. Later in the section though the concept of the Otherworld is discussed:



My apologies for including such a lengthy quote but I wanted to avoid any misunderstandings (mods, if you feel that posting material from another site in this fashion is inappropriate please let me know).

If I understand the passage correctly it would seem that belief in the existence of a spirit world is fundamental to Druidry, which would pose a problem for me as I am not comfortable with simply accepting such things on faith alone.

I don't really want to get in to a debate about the validity of the belief itself. Rather I was hoping that some of the Druids on the forum could help me with a few questions:

Have I misinterpreted what the author was trying to say here?

To what extent does belief in the Otherworld truly underpin Druidry? Is it, as the author states, a universally held belief? Is it consistent to think of yourself as Druid (or variation thereof) without such a belief?

To what degree can the Otherworld be interpreted as symbolic or metaphorical rather than a literal truth and what do you think the implications of such different interpretations would be.

Are there any other fundamental aspects of Druidry which rely on faith (I use that term loosely).

My apologies for the long post but I am genuinely interested in other people's views on the issue. If you are not a Druid but have an opinion I would welcome that too.

Gratefully

DM

I would not say you HAVE to believe in the otherworld to be a druid, rather that possibly most do! Certainly the OBOD course places a lot of emphasis on the otherworld as a place we can journey to etc!
I do believe - not in a blind because I'm told to way - rather in an experiential way.
I have no problem if someone chose to se this as a metaphorical place - personally I feel it to be real. But diversity and tolerance of belief is a priority for me and I believe for Druids in general.

Hope that helps

ED

I'm interested in Druidry. I'm not aligned with any Druidic organization, although I've had experience of some. Some people say I'm a Hedge-Druid, although the organized Druids might have something to say about that.

Who knows what "underpins" Druidry? There certainly seems to be more to the universe than what we can see, including what we can see down microscopes. I've always believed in re-incarnation, in the Buddhist sense - meaning that the organized energy of our "life-force" (which may be memories) is divisible and may return to more or less than one new creature in another life. Apparently there is some evidence to think that the Druids thought along these lines. Also, I believe there is a plane of existence which overlies our own, which you may consider to be the astral, the bardo thodol, faerie or just parts of the electromagnetic spectrum which we cannot detect.

Now, I don't have a problem with anyone who doesn't believe this. But I'm a little puzzled to find someone who doesn't accept this idea, on a pagan forum such as this one.

There is the issue of metaphor. Certainly the otherworld appears as a metaphor in some stories. But as a metaphor for what? Another state of consciousness? If that is so, it's not much of a metaphor, and I'd say it was none at all.

The organized druids that I've met all seem to believe in a unified life-force. To me, that's not an important idea, or a significant one. I'll accept that the Awen aligns you with a metaphysical force. I'm disinclined to regard it as a universal, all-pervading one. It may pervade the biosphere of this world, but that's as much as I admit.
The Hare Krishnas also believe, like the Druids, that music or rhythm has the ability to draw you to godhood. It is a persistent human idea.

Where would one find that evidence?


What's the difference between 'believing' and 'accepting' - surely one presupposes the other? And what difference does it make whether it's on a pagan forum or not?



No, it's an idea that they hold. I find no evidence that it is a 'persistant human idea' if one takes into account ( if one would even dare ) all 6 billion or so 'humans' on this planet and the history of those that have gone before. Everywhere.

Marto

Um... hello? *waves* remember me and the plethora of other athiests on this site? Sorry Fred, but a belif in the afterlife does not negate you from living a "pagan" lifestyle and DM has already stated in his introduction of himself that he doesnt feel like he is pagan "per say" but is exploring.

Aaanyhooo, on to the discussion.

Allow me to translate how I read the quote from obod.

"it is a universally held belief for three reasons."

We have three solid reasons for holding this idea to be true.

"Firstly, all religions or spiritualities hold the view that another reality exists beyond the physical world, rather than agreeing with Materialism, that holds that only matter exists and is real. "

Everyone else thinks there is one. And that its a nice place and people arent greedy there.

"Celtic mythology, which inspires so much of Druidism, is replete with descriptions of this Otherworld."

Ancient tales from the time of the druids tells of other worlds and we have chosen to take them as literal places as opposed to metaphorical encouragements.

"Thirdly, the existence of the Otherworld is implicit in ‘the greatest belief’ of the ancient Druids, since classical writers stated that the Druids believed in a process that has been described as reincarnation or metempsychosis (in which a soul lives in a succession of forms, including both human and animal). In between each life in human or animal form the soul rests in the Otherworld.“

Although we have no writings from the druids themselves, other people, who may or may not have ever had contact with druids, have said the druids believed in this, so we feel it is reasonable absorb the idea into our beleif system.

None of them seem like good reasons to me for druids to believe in the afterlife or alternate planes of existance unless they have experienced them themselves.

Now dont get me wrong. I am not trying to start a debate about the validity of druidic beliefs, all I am saying is, considering the quote from obod themselves, there seems pretty good reason to question and, from how it was written, it seems to be saying there is room for you NOT to believe this if you so wish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytheistic_reconstructionism

Not quite sure how to write this. I know some people take offence at being described as "reconstructionists" and I have to be honest and say I am not sure if Tas put the link up as a point to say its not real druidry it is reconstructed (not as a dig BTW just as a piece of information!) or if it was a link to help folks like me work it out. Either way... I dont think it is a negative thing. I dont think there is anything wrong with reconstructing something that was demolished. You do it as best you can with what you have. Druidry has to be reconstructed. They were wiped out. It does not however make it invalid. I would have thought if you heard a call to a belief system, it shouldnt matter if it hasnt been about in centuries should it?

No, not in the least. One of the things I bang my head against most is the common misconception that unless you can provide historical references to support why you do what you - you can't call it paganism. Rubbish as far as I'm concerned, it's fair to say that every pagan who looks to history as a basis of their belief is to some extent reconstructing. I think the explosions of temper happen when people are so keen to meet that conception and be taken seriously that they refuse to accept that there is any reconstructing going on and it's all gospel handed down either through time in some way, or via astral communication with the historical figures in question.


Do you know, I'm not even sure that was a valid contribution to the thread. I'm having a bad day.

I would just remember as well that OBOD and its style of "druidry" isn't the same as the original druids . there is no real evidence that druids were predominantly religious, or even spiritual. They were the most learned in society but could be seen most accurately as a class not an order. Priests were almost certainly members of this class but then so were poets, scientisits, natural pgilosophers and doctors, lawyers and courtiers, advisers and so forth.
So pronouncements about the otherworlds and druidic beliefs should always be taken with a grain of salt anyway.

I dont think anyone is claiming modern druidry is the exact same as the original as you first mentioned. However this comment is also, surely, just your opinion? It may well be that druids held the "learned" status, but when it comes to understanding their beliefs, I believe you are as much in the dark as everyone else, no?

I think one of the problems is that of 'classification'.

If I were to say I was Roman, people would think I was from Rome. If I was to say I was an Ancient Roman, people would ask me what I soaked in every day

There is no limit on what a 'Neo-Druid' can claim, either in belief or practice. However, 'Druids' (meaning those of a couple thousand years ago) are all...gone. Dead this long while and leaving no tale behind.

I've always found it interesting that , unlike some 'believers', they chose not to put aside their 'status' but to fight ( and die) as a group. Of course if any of the reports of the Romans are to be believed, the Druids saw themselves as a singular group, a caste separate from their own people. Certainly ( again, if they are to be believed) the Druids were none too kind to their own people let alone any invaders.

They could have chosen to toss aside the regalia and go 'underground' in order to keep their ideas alive but unless there is some serious evidence missing, they did not.

We owe to the memories of those Indigenous people's in North America who cast aside their regalia at the command of the invaders but kept their stories , language and myths alive by passing them down the knowledge of the beliefs they held.

Too bad the Druids appear to have seen themselves as a superior caste who would rather die than pass on their knowledge.

Of course, if anyone has any evidence that refutes this, I'd be delighted to know about it!

Marto

i agree it doesnt make it invalid
as i have gone along my winding path i have discovered Druidery and i accept that what we have today is reconstructed and i must say i have no problem with it,i was looking for something that i felt comfortable with and that had values that i agreed with and i have found it in modern Druidery,i would love for there to be an ancient link that could be followed but as there isnt we have to make the best use of what we have

Just as a little side note to the 'Ancient druids believed...' bit, there was mention of shamanic journeying to the otherworlds. Now there may be some speculation about whether celts (whoever they may be) journeyed to otherworlds and whether the literature is an accurate record of Celtic beliefs. But the concept of the otherworlds and journeying methods to access the otherworlds are still in existence in, albeit shrinking, shamanic communities in our world today. I would have to say that those who wrote down the 'celtic' tales would have to know about and have had access to records of such spiritual practices in order to falsely insert them into those tales. Shamanic concepts of the otherworlds have been found to exist in places all over the world. I find it more likely that there WERE concepts of the otherworlds in 'Celtic' traditions than that such concepts were added by later writers.

BB

Mike

Indeed, and my experience has been similar to yours .

Paganism is a living, vibrant spirituality. We learn from the past, and from our own experiences and beliefs in the here and now. Thus we form our beliefs and practices.
Everything had to be "constructed" at some time anyway.