First, I wonder if someone could tell me the difference between a 'spirit' animal and a 'totem' animal?

Also, I noted that someone remarked one's 'totem' animal 'chooses you'. I find that interesting on a number of levels but I'd like to explore the down to earth practical implications of this.

I will put my bias out front and remark I believe it's a case of anthropomorphizing combined with a personal view of 'self'. I could be very wrong and hope someone will correct me if so.

Here's one of my problems. Just an example. Some mentioned bears, wolves , tigers and other large predators.

From my experience being in places where such animals live, I have a very healthy respect for them as 'their own' creatures. I rather doubt they give a fiddlers about humans except in so far as we destroy their habitats and kill them.

But here's the thing. Take someone who 'identifies' a bear as their 'totem' or 'spirit' animal. Is it the case that people just admire or see themselves in certain characteristics of a particular creature? What about those that say their 'animal' chooses them.

Having lived in places where such large predators exist, I have a question for those that feel they have been 'chosen'.

See, it's easy to claim kinship with a bear in the U.K.. What about if you were in , say, a grizzlies territory ( about 50 square miles). If you have a 'relationship' to the bear, do you really think it feels the same way about you. Timothy Treadwell felt a very strong connection to grizzles and in fact spoke quite movingly about his 'connection' to them. I don't think I have to add to that.

Or, take a large cat. My only experience is that of the cougar. I have noted in those 'what animal is your spirit animal' memes all over the net that the cougar is included. These are fascinating animals. They avoid humans when possible. However, one rarely sees one. They are stalkers and usually by the time one sees one, one is on the way to being cougar lunch. I've only had the privilege of seeing one in the wild and I must admit that I did all those things they tell you to do if you are unlucky enough to run into one. I'm glad it had either eaten or for whatever reason I got out all right.

Wolves tend to travel in packs. One does not really want to be caught in the tundra surrounded by them. They WILL try and take you down.

This is what I don't understand. What's with an animal 'choosing' a human when many try so hard to get out of the way of humans and/or kill them if they run into them? People move in, many, like ravens, move out. Now why is that if there is some pact that can be made with them?

These are not meant to be disrespectful questions.

If someone who has decided their 'spirit' animal is a large predator, would your belief be strong enough for you to either approach it or trust that it 'knew' it was 'part' of you ( and you will not become 'part' of them in a rather nasty way)?

Does that power of conviction hold for people? Would you willingly seek out your 'spirit' animal on it's home turf? Even the Indigenous people's that live in such areas would never do that. They may admire them, they may make myths about them and assign them 'spiritual' characteristics. I've never met an Indigenous person who would willingly seek one out even if it is their Clan Totem.

Marto

I don't talk generally about my fetch, but one thing I'd really like to know - what's a 'power animal'?

I know the differences between totems, spirit guides and fetches, but I'm not sure what a 'power animal' is and the origin of the concept. Is it a New Age thing?

The closest thing I've come to having what you speak of Marto, was an indigenous creature to this isle and though capable of doing some serious damage to a human if extremely provoked, not one that would select a human as a prey option, ever. It's a size issue. Yes, I have spent considerable time in the company of these creatures in a physical form, one of the ways from which I learned it's actual traits rather than the romanticised ideals often quoted to do with totems etc. When I say I spent time, I mean face to face, up close and personal time, I still do when I can. I know how to handle and approach them and have yet to be harmed in any way.

The spirtual form is different to that of a real world version in that yes it can communicate with me and I with it, it's not beyond my realms of acceptance that this version is an aspect of myself which I have subconciously chosen to represent the lessons I needed to learn.
Not terribly important really, as long as the lessons are learned and are of some practical benefit. However, I do not think that anyone who completely adheres to the idea that their spirit animals chose them and are not drawn from their subconcious would believe that any physical form of this animal was the same individual as had contacted them and would expect to be safe from attack by them whatever they did. Having such a totem should mean you learn about the animal. If you learn about a bear you should know that if you come face to face with one in a forest and it wants to eat you, it will. That is not to say that you can't also learn a few of the qualities that define a bear from the spiritual form while you're learning about the physical form.

Or that's my take anyway.

Moonhunter, although Spirit Animal, Totem Animal, Fetch and Familiar are all different things, you tend to find that in most circumstances when people discuss them they mean one single thing anyway, power animal is probably the same.

There is a fine line between totemism and otherkin

I think some people place far too much importance in this, and to some extent they cannot help anthropomorphising animals - we have been doing it for millenia! The whole domesticated dog and cat thing came about because we saw 'something' in them that made us want to keep them close by.

But why do people pick animals like bears, wolves, dolphins etc? I am always struck by the amount of people who ignore indigenous British animals like the fox or squirrel, and go for North American ones like wolves and cougars. Sure, we used to have wolves, but how many of us have actually seen them in the wild enough to compare our behaviour to theirs? What is wrong with smaller, less glamorous animals like the robin, a feisty little bugger? Or the cuttlefish, a beautiful animal with amazing camouflage? I really don't think people think these things through, and just go to 'pick-a-totem' books for their desires.

Also, I suspect people get omens and augers mixed up with spirit animals. A witch is always on the look out for unusual behaviour from their surroundings - weather, plants, animals etc. A magpie behaving out of the ordinary would be more likely to attract my attention to what that behaviour means than for its possibility of being my totem (although I do have an attachment to magpies but for different reasons). It is the usual case of people being too quick to pick up an idea from Llewicca and running off before they develop it all the way.

Lastly, I think some people do have certain animal characteristics. And I mean to the extent that otherkin cannot even dream of (why is it always the fattest otherkin who think they are graceful siamese cats?) My ex shambles like a bear, and his nickname is 'Bill the Bear'. We all know people who jerk around like a bird, or who nibble their food like rodents. And I know many sloths!

I don't think there is any harm in having a spirit animal/totem, unless it involves destruction of or disturbing that animal's habitat. I do think furries and otherkin take it a tad far, but there's nowt so strange as folk.

I don't really like most animals much

(sneaks back hoping the rain of rotten tomatoes has finished )

I would never actively be cruel to them (except for Mr S's cat ) but they just don't really interest me very much. I do like salamanders and amphibians and some insects but not to any great extent.

However I have had several very vivid dreams which involved being guided or saved by a grey seal. I have sometimes wondered if this is my fetch or (my first thought) a representative of Heimdall.

A Totem animal is a Group Spirit, it is associated with Tribes, and other groups of people.
A Power Animal is a Personal thing, they share the same sort of energies and powers, but the Totem is stronger, or more powerful.
As I understand it, you have 2 Power Animals with you for life, you dont choose them, they are there because they are reflections of your main lessons this time round.
They also attract other Power Animals, which will assist you with the life lessons you are going through at that time, but these are usually only there temporarily. Some do stay for longer, depending on the lesson! Shaman generally share the same Power Animals, these are Wolf, Bear, Eagle and Owl.

HOWEVER...........just because you have a Power Animal which is a Bear for example, it DOESNT mean you should approach one in the wild, thats how you end up dead! If you Genuinelly do have a Power Animal that is a Bear, it may be able to help you, if you suddenly found yourself in this position, but I wouldnt bet my life on it! Especially if the Bear has Cubs!

However, many people who have big powerful Power Animals, are often on ego trips on a subconscious level, same as in many things magickal. i wont accept any Power Animals unless I am given proof, this usually involves being given a Fur of that animal out of the blue or something similiar.

However, it is possible to have some very unusual Wild Animal encounters, when they act totally out of character. At these times I tend to assume that the Totem Animal of that Species (like a collective spirit) is acknowledging you, Ive had several experiences of this type, a few with Foxes, a Red Deer stag, Bald Eagle, Buzzard, Starlings, Badger, to name some.
Several of these could have caused me harm or worse, but they approached me, I would never try to approach them in the wild!

I have also worked in a Zoo, so have had a scary but nice moment with a Siberian Tiger, in which I tickled it behind the ear and left in one piece! but that is a slightly different situation, but still very dangerous!

So in many ways, a Spirit Form, such as a Power or Totem animal is very different to the real thing! For starters they dont need to eat, or at least not you! hope that helps!

So if the 'spirit form' is very different from the actual animal, how do people decide which animal is 'theirs'?

Many species share similar traits and one could give a description of two very different members of the same species and just by the description if would be hard to tell them apart.

So, do people 'see' their spirit animal? I have had many dreams of bears and seen many in the wild. I've also seen T-Rex's in my dreams . Which one would I choose as 'mine'?

According to Esk, one must study the behavior of an animal and perhaps therein learn what 'lesson' they are to take from it. How does one in the U.K. study the habits of a tiger, bear or wolf in their natural habitat ( where they would behave as they do naturally) ?

Also, some places I've lived in are just totally full of animals that one can 'meet' on a regular basis - bear, deer, eagles, ravens, otters, seals, orca, herons, etc. , etc.. So the 'chance' meeting of any of the above is not really 'above' chance...at all. It's rather hard to squeeze meaning out of an encounter with a stag or eagle when it happens all the time.

Now if I were to meet with an elephant out of it's natural habitat, I might change my mind about the 'connection'

This question is more aimed at those who say their 'spirit animal' chooses them. How does one decide that?

Marto

You seem to be reading things out of context and misinterpreting! Power Animals look the same as the real things, a Black Bear is a Black Bear, not a Polar Bear or Sun Bear. They act the same in many ways, but they are not physical animals, and are not subject to the same rules as their living, breathing, breeding, eating, etc, counterparts!
Plus Power Animals are seperate Spirit Beings, we dont choose them, they choose us!
You are lucky to have lived in such wild and natural places, full of wild life!
If you encounter such animals regularly then its only the ones who act out of character in their behaviour that count! Yes, you may walk out of a wood and nearly bump into a Stag and it then runs off, but thats normal behaviour! When ones crosses an open space to come over and sniff your face or lick you, then thats a bit out of character!
Esk is right, if its possible to study these animals in their natural habitats, that is a good way of connecting! But if you dont have Bears and Wolves running around in the wild, like we dont in Britain any more! Then Id suggest you watch Nature Documentaries, visit Zoos and read books!
Anyway, enough from me on this, there are plenty of old threads about this subject on site! bye!

Well, I would say my “spirit animal” is a badger. Not through any meaningful personal contact, indeed, I’ve only seem a badger in the wild a couple of times and certainly have never felt compelled to approach one to see if it felt the same way about me! I have the healthiest of respect and admiration for all animals, and do volunteer work to educate people about ospreys and other British raptors. Indeed, out of all animals, raptors are probably the ones which fascinate me most, yet I don’t feel any spiritual connection to them. I don’t particularly identify either with a badger, mentally or physically. If I consider badger attributes, I guess at times some of them could apply to me, but they could apply to anyone at any given time. I don’t spend much time, really, thinking about badgers.

And yet one keeps popping up in dreams and in meditations and has done for years. I can only assume, if I were to be psychologically analytical about it, that my subconsious is recalling my deceased maternal grandfather. His name was Badger. Well, not his Christian name, but the name which was bestowed upon him after his father, also known as Badger died. And which was bestowed on him, and so back through generations. I have no idea why the name “Badger” was given to my ancestors, only that it was. The odd thing is though that I only found this out last year.

So - meh, I don't know. Could be something, could be nothing, all I know is that this badger is very special to me

I actually agree with you marto. For one thing in the cultures where spirit animals or totems were legitimately part of the culture, from what i've read or heard from actual members of that culture there were set parameters to the concept and not everyone had one, by any means - Far cry from neo paganism where everyone has their own wolf/eagle/bear.
plus why does no one ever get chosen by an earth worm or a beetle

If I could choose, I'd choose a badger. Second choice is a tie between a stag/buck or an otter.

I don't know about Power Animals. I've a fetch - but, in Heathenry, the fetch is part of oneself and one is born with it. It's also something outside oneself. The old tale is, that to see one's fetch outside oneself, as though it were physical, is the presentiment of death. Like the howl of the beansidhe in Ireland.

So many badgers!
I'd love to think I had a connection with badgers, I have met some and they are delightful to watch. Mind you they are cantankerous buggers and one bit my brother once...
However I think what connection I have is only an artificual construct based on a particular like of mine.
I've never met an animal in a dream or anything like that so I'm personally sceptical of the whole "animal" thing. Why do we need to be like an animal? There's almost no human behaviour that can't be found somewhere in the animal kingdom and vice versa.

In a seriously rural and iolated society I can understand that people would attribute aspects of themselves to local animls, but then they have a healthy respect for and understanding of the nature of those animals. That's something few of us "civillised" people can attain.
BM
xx

Hi Marto, haven't read the replies yet but will...

First, I wonder if someone could tell me the difference between a 'spirit' animal and a 'totem' animal?

Probably semantics but I would consider a totem animal to be linked to a tribe or group of people - like in Uganda where each tribe has a totem or symbolic animal such as the lion (belonging to the Kabaka/King's family), the grasshopper (also an edible delicacy!), the crested crane (national bird) etc. That animal is sacred to that tribe and generally isn't eaten or hunted by them. If you go to the parliament in Kampala they are all carved around the doorway

A spirit animal is more of an archetypal spirit which can be called down into a person during trance or intoxication - a journeying, interactive spirit. I think Totem animals can be used as spirit animals but not all spirit animals are totemic or sacred to all peoples.

Also, I noted that someone remarked one's 'totem' animal 'chooses you'.

I'm not sure about that - I think in the traditional sense it's your birth right and family inheritance. I'm not sure how that works in a disconnected system such as we have in the West. I'm not sure all tribes used totemic animals in such a prominent way as Africans and Native Americans. I believe Germanic and Celtic tribes probably did but I haven't done the research.

I think in Britain most believe that fetches or spirit helpers find you, but according to Witchcraft and Demonianism these creatures are rather unique to Britain and not a European phenomenon. I found that interesting, I didn't realise.

I will put my bias out front and remark I believe it's a case of anthropomorphizing combined with a personal view of 'self'.

Does it matter? Does that change the experience? If you want the experience of something in its full traditional glory, best put the Western psychology books aside. If you want to know what something is, go and meet it Then if you have to categorize it, ask Freud These are things that live outside written culture, in the oral traditions and the firelight - they will never be what psychologists say they must be and yet often they will resemble those things. But either way, it really doesn't matter. You can pull apart the neurochemistry of entheogens all you like but it tells you nothing of the actual experience itself or of what is possible.

From my experience being in places where such animals live, I have a very healthy respect for them as 'their own' creatures. I rather doubt they give a fiddlers about humans except in so far as we destroy their habitats and kill them.

Again I'd bring entheogens into this. The experience of animals on, say psilocybin, is vastly different for both human and animal than in 'waking' reality. The things that are possible with animals in those states are bizarre lol I've had an 'understanding' with dogs, I've known someone to play with horses in a way you probably couldn't normally. The age old stories of toads and ayahuasca, probably a similar concept to the links between toads and flying ointment. I certainly wouldn't put it past a shaman and a bear to have a conversation

Dian Fossey managed it with gorillas in waking life and that other lasy with lions. In magickal realities concepts and bonds of normality are detached. But that's within cultures where these things are recognised and understood. Largely in the West we don't have that connection and we don't understand the power of plants in aiding that communication.

But here's the thing. Take someone who 'identifies' a bear as their 'totem' or 'spirit' animal. Is it the case that people just admire or see themselves in certain characteristics of a particular creature? What about those that say their 'animal' chooses them.

You can't be generic about the 'they chose me' syndrome. You need case studies Probably it's wishful thinking, occasionally there'll be something deeply significant about it.

As far as totems are concerned, the tribe identifies or asks for traits of that animal: the strength of the bear, the swiftness of the eagle, the power of the lion etc. I think sometimes that animal is also seen as protecting the tribe and looking over it. Through the shaman the spirit of the animal can manifest and in tribal dance too, re-enforcing the powers of that creature within the community.

Wolves tend to travel in packs. One does not really want to be caught in the tundra surrounded by them. They WILL try and take you down.

And yet there are exceptional stories: Romulus and Remus, children raised by wolves, people saved from drowning by dolphins or (oddly) pigs, people living with gorillas, horse whisperers. Little breaks in the normal routine of things that form a connection in the oral tradition of the psyche between man and non-man. When you think you know what something is and then you don't. These are things people remember in their stories and the way to explore that link, I suppose, is through magic as the event itself seems magical.

Does that power of conviction hold for people? Would you willingly seek out your 'spirit' animal on it's home turf?

I don't think that's what it's about though. I think what you said before about being in awe of these animals and of what they can do - their strength, power, grace, ferocity - is what it's about. It is the influence of dances and music and trance work. Man is 'top dog', a warrior, so when he meets something that can beat him it's a cause for recognition and honour.

I've never met an Indigenous person who would willingly seek one out even if it is their Clan Totem.

Funny they seem to end up with so many bearskins then isn't it

Snake-dance anyone?

Sometimes it is wise to wait until all the information is in, yes?




I can only speak of my limited experience with the Indigenous people I knew growing up and my relatives and friends. So of course, my experience is limited. Of the groups I know of and their belief systems , one is born into a clan which is represented by a certain animal. The 'totem' is more of a tale of that family, rather like a genealogy . The 'spirit' of the animal is the stuff of their myths and teaching processes, not their 'friend'.



There is nothing 'archetypal' of the kind of 'spirit' animals I am familiar with. The representations of them are true to the animal's behavior in it's natural habitat. But again, my experience is limited by it's geography. I'm quite sure it's different in different places in the world.




It was the Western concept I was inquiring about. Expecially since there is no history that I can find of 'totem' or 'spirit' animals in the U.K. except in preternatural lore.





Yes, I think it matters a lot. So many people make claims based on ignorance and wish-fullfillment, I'm curious as to where they get these notions. I never mentioned psychology and it only comes into this in regards to people's ideas that while they live in the U.K., somehow, the 'spirit of the cougar or wolf' is guiding them. If this is the case, then what information are people relying on? Nature documentaries? And if they feel so connected, why don't they seek out their 'power animal' and engage with it? But I think you answered that: it's not an actual animal, it's an 'idea' ( frequently highly distorted) of an animal. ( Freud isn't studied very much anymore except by historians and used in Psychoanalytic therapy which is quite rare these days )

And actually yes, I can tell you what to expect when imbibing certain neuroactive substances . If I know a person, I can pretty accurately predict what experience they will have. Sorry about that. So yes, it does matter when people make claims and hide behind the 'but you'd have to 'experience it' to REALLY understand. This assumes 1) that the person being addressed has NOT experienced something and 2)leaves huge wide open spaces for people to spin their fantasies and hide behind the old 'U.P.G.' card which none can gainsay.



How do you know what an animal is experiencing?



I've seen people have conversations with pieces of paper without the benefit of having imbibed anything. It is known that animals will suckle the young of other species so it's not unusual. I think it's a terrible hubris that people have that anytime an animal other then themselves acts differently it's a some kind of event , that people are surprised that a species other then themselves can do things which require choice and mentation. This thankfully is changing as we learn more and assume less.



I must admit I've missed the research papers that Fossey and other ethologists (apparently ) spent much time writing about their magical interactions with the animals they were studying. I have certainly never seen anything which indicates that the statement "In magickal realities concepts and bonds of normality are detached" have been studied in conjunction with those you mention as if it were some kind of accepted and familiar concept and activity. But perhaps I haven't studied the area enough.




See above about animals acting 'above human expectations'. Also, could you source the Romulus and Remus and feral children remarks? Thanks. As far as 'exploring the links', if they happened, they happened, nowt 'magical' about it I should think.



Again, I cannot speak to the tribes you know, the people I know would find that remark about bearskins used in anything but ritual dances to be incredibly offensive. And no, not many bearskins. To willingly seek out and kill one's clan animal would be a bizarre and unacceptable notion. Sorry. Masks, costumes and dances.

Marto

That's an interesting theory, where did you get that from?

Um... no. I may even be using the wrong term when I say totem animal.



In the sense that when I meditate for some reason, an otter keeps coming to mind and when I take myself off to my "happy place" there is always an otter there. and Like Pomona, I have dreams about otters. I do not think for one moment that a wild animal went out and chose me. By the same token I dont think I chose an otter. I wonder it just a part of my personality that needs playing out.



Actually I pretty much agree with that.



Eeehhh... I think a lot of people choose their "totem" animal regardless of what they may say. There are so many people out there running about with eagles and bears and wolves



As I said, I agree with you re the anthro... anthrophorm... it all in the mind!



Depends on the belief systems. I have never known of a clan totem to be hunted. But I suppose you cant really rule it out.

I have of course discussed this before, but we'll do it again. I'm one of the ones who identifies a rather uncommon spirit animal, that being Spider. And believe me, this is NOT something I would have chosen if given options.

I was in my youth a rather severe arachnophobe. Over the years, I became more watchful toward spiders, and started to feel that they were also watching over me on a metaphorical level. I began to feel, for no special reason, like spiders and I had a mutually protective relationship, though they still squicked me out a bit. And eventually I came across the term "spirit animal" again, and thought, "ah, that's the term for the Thing with me and spiders!" It wasn't something I wanted, but it also wasn't something I questioned. Looking into the symbolism that various cultures have associated with spiders, it eventually seemed to fit, and I'm perfectly all right with it now. Though of course I still don't especially like them crawling on me.

I do, of course, live with spiders, because we all do. Do I seek them out? Well, no, why would I? I certainly enjoy a beautiful orb weaver web, but that's not the sort of thing you go looking for. And I am in the rather amusing situation of having been marked, apparently permanently, by my spirit animal-- I got a spider bite a few summers ago on my right shoulder, and it swelled up gigantically and never shrank back down. It doesn't affect my mobility or health at all, I'm pretty sure it's just a lipoma. But it makes me smile.

I do not, however, think of this as anything with Great Cosmic Meaning. It's just one of those things. Spiders and I have a mutually watchful, wary, and protective relationship I can't exactly explain. Does it make me Special, like if I were a super-cool eagle or tiger of bear or wolf or whatever? Eh, no. It just happened. It confers no special powers, it changes my life very little, except that I can't let others kill a spider in my presence. And I absolutely don't feel that I Understand the beady little arachnids, nor could I. I just have an association with them for some reason.

In most cases, the whole Spirit Animal thing strikes me very much as wishful thinking, and I often roll my eyes at the repetition of wish-fulfillment animals myself. I don't know why people want one so badly. An Accounting degree is far more useful than a spirit animal. It would be wiser to moon over that. Just rather less romantic for some reason. (No, I do not have an accounting degree. But I am dating an actuary!) My story of realizing this is the only one I know, but perhaps it will help. In any case it's a different kind of silly way to end up feeling like you have a spirit animal.

Ah, the spider. A very powerful icon. Have you come across Anansi? Or the myth of Arachne?



Absolutely.

I don't talk about my fetch for a different reason. But, if I wanted something powerful, I'd love Anansi.

This is resonating horribly. Ive noticed a similar feeling about spiders and me over the last few months. I had an enormous (presumably lady) spider lurking in my bedroom and for 2 nights I couldn't sleep in there, then I began to look out for her and felt strangely alone when I couldn't see her. She's gone off into hibernation (or whatever t is spiders do) and I've not seen her for while but... but...
My spidertolerance is going up as regards size too.
BM
xx

Marto, I would choose the T-rex just to be different.

I've got something going on with wolves and ravens and have physically encountered them on a physical level (and not from behind a barbed wire either. However seeing as I don't have a clue about power animals or totem animals or whatever, I'm not going to call it that. I think I will just stick with the 'animals I like and that I have been lucky enough to come across in real life and have really cool encounters with'.

In Heathen terms, the only way in which this preference for these animals affects my life is through my choice of animal when I do Hamfarir (basically shifting the shape of the astral skin, or hamr and going going for a mooch). I don't believe the animal helps me or whatever. This is nothing more than personal preference and what I experience in this might be a load of bollocks but I don't really care. Even if it is only on a psychological level, I get something from it.

There is the fetch too but I really have no interest in seeing it any time soon!!!

I have major spider issues.
I recently shrieked and ran away in a very girly fashion at a truely tiny money spider on a workmate's collar. So I've started reading up on them to learn more. I've found naming them something other that 'that fecking huge one in the bathroom' helps make them less scary. Or I've decided it does anyway...


Adult blokes have boxing gloves on the end of their pedipalps (fuzzy antenne bits in front of their mouth). Its to help them with the ladies . Trying to inject some humour there.
If its fuzzy and short legged then its a hunter, long legs is a web spinner and if its stripy its a Zebra type. And they jump, have a pair of forward facing eyes and actually stop look at you. As well as try to bungie onto IJ's head from the roof and cause me (and he) Hysterics. Although his was of a different type, he was laughing at me .

I have a Wild Boar as my power/spirit animal/guide/whatever you want to call it. They kept on popping up in various guises around me- heraldry, cap badges, logos etc. and I've always had a bit of an affinity for them. I wasn't expecting one to turn up the way he did, though. Like everyone else, I was hoping for something dramatic with big claws and fangs, but after working with him for a while, I wouldn't swap him for all the wolves in North America.