1. What is the value of the AA grade system?
2. Do the grades entail any responsibilities beyond proclaiming that one is of the claimed grade?
3. Is it necessary to demonstrate magickal attainment to confirm that one has achieved the claimed grade?
4. How can one evaluate or measure magickal attainment?
5. Are there any indicators of skill with regard to magickal attainment other than what one may claim as an individual practitioner?

My answers to these questions have been published elsewhere. I'm happy to reproduce them if anyone is interested.

So why are you asking?

What the feck has magic got to do with Alcoholics Anonymous??!!!

You're bloody looped! The lot of yous are bloody looped!!!

He knows what he thinks.. he wants to know what we think. Thought that was kinda obvious.

Cross. Yer gonna have to explain to peeps what AA is. Never assume.

That's right - I know what I think and I want to know what other people think.
A:.A:. (the dots should be triangles) = Argentum Astrum (Silver Star), the magickal order founded by Aleister Crowley in 1907. Thanks for the reminder about never assuming.

I think too it would be very helpful if you posted your own answers.

We do kind of like the whole "sharing" thing on this site - otherwise it looks as though one is either mining for information or examining and then marking those who do respond...

Here's my response then:

What is the value of the AA grade system?

The AA grade system possesses no objective value. One could argue that the AA does not exist in an objective sense and that it never existed outside the realm of Crowley’s passing fancy. The present claimants to AA grades can be seen as people who strive to bolster their claims of magickal attainment or spiritual development by referring to spurious authority. True authority does not reside in arbitrarily invented hierarchies.

When I was a little boy I sometimes imagined myself to be a private in the army. Through acts of daring and cunning I gained a series of promotions. I was wounded along the way but I swiftly achieved the rank of general by virtue of my extraordinary talent. When I tired of the army, I joined the air force. When I tired of the air force, I took to the navy. I was master of earth, air and water before I celebrated my 8th birthday.

Do the grades entail any responsibilities beyond proclaiming that one is of the claimed grade?
Is it necessary to demonstrate magickal attainment to confirm that one has achieved the claimed grade?

Crowley writes about his experiences and relates them to magickal grades and orders throughout his writings. He talks of experiences pertinent to passing from one grade to another. He provides sufficient information to gain an understanding of his AA system. The value of the system can be tested by performing the rites he has published. But why be a follower of Crowley when there are more important things to do? Outside of Crowley one could hunt down fairly numerous magical diaries written by his acolytes, which treat of the grades and magickal attainment, although the words of the followers are bound to confirm the proclamations of their master.

How can one evaluate or measure magickal attainment?

There are no rigorously objective evaluation tools that I am aware of. Where is the ground of magickal attainment? For the sake of convenience, let us say or pretend that there is an inward ground, a field where the inward and the outward meet and an outward ground. The inward ground is a field for self-evaluation. I think the practical results of magick can be perceived in the place where the inward and the outward meet. I have never perceived the operation of effective magick in the outward ground.

I have engaged in rites that required me to move my body but the purpose and virtue of these rites does not reside in the actions performed.

Are there any indicators of skill with regard to magickal attainment other than what one may claim as an individual practitioner?

Building a system that is coherent to oneself; expressing this system in an appropriate form; and receiving feedback from others that the expressed system has value (a kind of peer review). This is more of a simple description of a process than a statement regarding indicators of skill, although building and expressing a system requires the utilisation of all manner of skills, including proficiency in administration and a talent for artistic expression.

Frater Non Serviam

'Frater Non Serviam' is a form of magickal name along the lines of Frater Perdurabo (Crowley's similarly constructed magickal name). 'Non Serviam' means 'I will not serve'; 'Perdurabo' means 'I will endure (unto the end)'.

TF for the explanations!

I had a horrible moment where I saw this thread developing into a treatise on the relative merits of the AA versus the RAC.

As an artist, you can appreciate how potentially confusing this could have become!

The A.A. treat you like a baton (relay) , the R.A.C. palm you off on the local contractor

At least with the RAC you have a chance of getting collected by my evil housemate, so there's entertainment value in there somewhere.

With regard to the actual topic...

1. What is the value of the AA grade system?

Of intrinsic and immeasurable value to those who are studying within it, I am sure. To someone who is not, utterly irrelevant, as are the rest of the questions regarding the AA.

What I have read on the subject leads me to believe that the group came into being largely to prop up Crowley's ego after he had a bust-up with OTO or a similar group (precise details elude me). Doesn't neccessarily invalidate it, of course, but if I were interested in that area of magical practice, I'd look into the groups that it spawned from first.

I've never had any desire to evaluate or measure magical attainment for my own part, nor on anyone else's behalf. The path I follow is a solitary one, and my successes and failures are not measured in any empirical form, just by trial and error, and an organic development of my abilities and skills.

First off if you were to meet a fully paid up card carrying membet of the A:.A:. Then they would be about as likey to honestly aswer your questions as if you asked the same type of questions of a Freemason. (Theres Oaths of Secrecy and all that crap)

Second. "Why do you want to know?" This board is made of a Eclectic mix of Pagans, Heathens, Witches (of all kinds), Voodo Practicioners, Cermonial Magicians, Thelemites, Aetheists and Xtians, Shamans, Reki Healers, Social care workers I could go on and on . Are you seeking some kind of validation of your own ideas and belif system?
If your trying to find some coherent answers or common themes here then HAHHAHAHAH forget it. We are a board of Individuals pal. You'll get 20 diffrent answers to the same question.


Anyone who has has a Moving Mystical Experice or a close encounter with a God Angel or Demon wouldn't be seeking to back themselves up from am Internet Discussion Fourm.

Ah, the magical equivalent of a stamp collector.

You mean the Drug Addled Sexualy Perverted Stamp Collectors?

(Rushes our to buy book of stamps and attend one of their meetings)

Gee - you've met them, too?

Certanly Have, Put my back out and didnt come home for for 3 days last time.

And they say Stamp Collectors are boring

I like my stamp collection.

Hm fascinating Jim. Life but not as we know it. Or something. I have no opinions on this subject really, but was interested to read yours, crossoflight. Can i ask you a question now, since you seem to operate in quiz mode?

My question is, if you don't think much of Crowley, why do you want to discuss him? eh?

I think its silly, to have a system, to judge "where You are"

As its been said, ask one ? here, get 20 answers! lol, but thats the beauty of the place and for me the practice of magick or knowing my own intuition..
I hate / loathe grades... I know what I'm interested in working on..

I don't grade myself, i know my own abilities and what I'm capable of..
tho perhaps, i can do more, LOL.. must have a sense of humor

One can always practice and improve.. or just enjoy... sooo much to learn and the fun is in the journey, not the destination ...imo.. .

Stamps taste funny when you lick them.

'Specially if they are that new fangled peel off kind or was that just me ?

Depends were you lick them...

C'mon folks.... stick to the topic.

I think a great deal of Crowley. I'm staggered by his accomplishments. I think he's probably the most significant magical figure of the 20th century. Study of Crowley's Book 4.1, Book 4.2, The Book of Lies and Magick in Theory and Practice informed my writing of 'Transfiguration of SOAB', which will be published early next year. My previous work, 'The Sons of Amos Brearley', contains a commentary on The Book of the Law and features a character partly modelled on Crowley. Despite acknowledging Crowley's achievements, I don't feel bound to accept what he says uncritically and I'm somewhat suspicious of people and orders that use Crowley to validate what they are doing. I hope this answers your question.

I know what might be termed 'a fully paid up card carrying member of the A:.A:.' and he answered in this fashion (his response was published in Cross of Light Temple Bulletin, so he won't mind me reproducing it here):

What is the value of the AA grade system?

The value of the AA grade system is that it allows the student of occultism to know exactly where he or she’s at when it comes to progress. Astral – and higher – experiences are firmly pinpointed in a structure which is also absolutely linked with the kabbalistic Tree of Life, the best glyph we have for monitoring such progress. This is especially important when one gets to the supernals (the top triangle on the Tree). The system is particularly gratifying when, without full knowledge of the structure, one has experiences which are then found to parallel Adepts of other ages, often in well nigh exactly the same fashion.

Do the grades entail any responsibilities beyond proclaiming that one is of the claimed grade?

As and when one reaches the grade of Adeptus Exemptus, for example, one has to give out one’s own learning / experiences in published form (depicting how one honestly sees things at this stage of development; obviously, it will change later). The responsibility is, of course, karmic and this is adequately expressed in some of the writings of Rudolf Steiner. One cannot escape the karmic consequences of incorrect or ill-advised teaching.

At the level of Magister Templi, one can act as ‘master’ for individuals or a group of ‘disciples’. There is no question of ego at this juncture since ego as mortal men know it no longer exists. Such a man is now Nemo – No Man!

Is it necessary to demonstrate magickal attainment to confirm that one has achieved the claimed grade?

Magical attainment is not – and never has been – the main objective of the AA (or its predecessor the Golden Dawn). Spiritual evaluation / development – in a somewhat mystic fashion – is the order of this Order. As an old Sufi sheikh of mine said: ‘Miracles are the menstruation of Wabis (saints)’, that is mere by-products of trying to achieve God-head.

How can one evaluate or measure magickal attainment?

This, almost paradoxically, particularly comes into play in the Magus degree (9 degree – 2 square). Acts of magic are plain to see when the intended result is in some way achieved. Again, paradoxically, the techniques of some ‘Chaos Magicians’ work well here – but they are not recommended for neophytes (beginners). If you have to ask how attainment is evaluated, you have clearly not attained.

Are there any indicators of skill with regard to magickal attainment other than what one may claim as an individual practitioner?

As above. The only indicator of skill is some clear proof of the achievement of one’s magical objective. The other parties involved can see it clearly too – with their own eyes. One cannot claim magical success. How could / would one get away with it?!

I AM,
Dr G.
9 degree – 2 square

Postscript

Many currently voguish practitioners and others (Alan Richardson, Stephen Skinner, the late Andrew Chambley and the late Joe B. Wilson spring to mind) are / were eager to laud the virtues of pre-hierarchical / organisational magical abilities, especially in some cases those pertaining to so-called traditional (as opposed to Wiccan) witchcraft. For some, the strictures of the Kabbala are too restrictive – for them.

I have yet to be personally convinced of the supposed superior virtues of the magics these individuals extol.

However, efficacious magic there sometimes was! Even the trickster Robin Artisson rightly warns, in ‘deep red ink’, of the dangers of the world of Faery. As for malevolent witchcraft… not for nothing are the responses and immediate reactions positively medieval. And it is only a gossamer thread ‘twixt ourselves and the 7 Hells of the Qliphoth (our own earth being the first sphere)!! Fluffy New Age Bunnies and Light, Life and Love merchants – Be warned!!!

*********************

I didn't ask the questions to validate my ideas and belief system. I was interested in individual responses, should anyone care to make them.

Ahhh! The reason for the questions may lay here. Or is that just me being cynical? Could be.

Marto

It's not my primary intention to promote my work on this forum. I mentioned it in this posting because I thought it related directly to the question I was asked.

No , it didn't. That's what made me come ( or jump erroneously ) to my conclusion.

The questions was: "if you don't think much of Crowley, why do you want to discuss him? eh?"

Your answer could have adequately answered that question by a few sentences you wrote, leaving your writings totally out of it, vis:

"I think a great deal of Crowley. I'm staggered by his accomplishments. I think he's probably the most significant magical figure of the 20th century. Despite acknowledging Crowley's achievements, I don't feel bound to accept what he says uncritically and I'm somewhat suspicious of people and orders that use Crowley to validate what they are doing. I hope this answers your question."

See?

But as I said, it's my suspicious mind from years of seeing people with a few posts on a forum suddenly start to mention their writings. If I am mistaken, I apologise. As I also think Crowley was just a du jour eccentric hack of his time who lived for 'column inches', I give most stuff on him a miss same way as I give Roman a' clef books by movie stars a miss. I never did fancy desperate attention seekers who tried to 'shock' ( or thought they did) their audience.

But that's just my opinion and so carries no more weight than those that like his stuff.

Marto

I see your point. I think the fact that I addressed Crowley in my work adds further emphasis to my answer. It's one thing to come to an opinion based on reading. It's another thing to study someone's work and use this study to inform what you're doing as a writer - I think it shows deeper engagement with the subject.

Thank you for your replies, Crossoflight.