2nd RESEARCH PROJECT QUESTION:

Hello to all,

Well, I am very impressed by all the replies that I have received to my first research project question, and to the high level of intelligence found on this site, and so I have no need to wait a long period of time to pose another question or two.

THIS IS NOT A LEGAL ISSUE, NOR AN EXCLUSIVE U.S. ISSUE:


COMMON PROMOTION:

It is commonly promoted that neo-paganism is a modern term to describe present day beliefs and/or traditions of ancient paganism. That neo-paganism is the revival and/or the reconstruction of ancient paganism.


RESEARCH:

In all of my research I have been unable to provide any data to prove that an ancient religion referred to as "paganism" ever existed in history. If fact, I have also been unable to provide any data to prove that any religion in history ever associated themselves with the term paganism. My conclusions therefore are that there has never existed an ancient religion that was ever called paganism, or referred to as paganism, and that paganism is a modern term to describe something of the past, as the word dinosaurs describes the creatures that once roamed our planet, never having called themselves dinosaurs.

Therefore there never was a religion called paganism that pre-dated Christianity, and that all ancient religions had their own names and that neither was called paganism, or referred to as paganism. And that no person pre-Christianity ever referred to their religion or their religious practices as paganism.


QUESTION:

Therefore, if there never was a paganism, then how can there today be a neo-paganism? And if there never was a religion named paganism, then how are reconstructionists claiming to have revived or resconstructed a neo-paganism from a religion that never once existed?

Odin d'Avalon

Odin, it might help if you have a read through the old threads, you might find a lot of your questions have been addressed before. If you do you will see that we have discussed the origins of the word Pagan before. It was a derrogatory term used by the Roman to describe those who lived away from the main communities. As was touched on in your previous question, you will not find any reference to paganism as an ancient relgion because it wasn't one, paganism is not a religion. There are religions that come under it's banner though which certainly existed. Paganism/neo-people paganism people are referring to the same thing. Try to bear in mind however, just because no one ever wrote it down and put it in a book doesn't mean it didn't exist.

Could you be any more patronising?

In answer to your question, no there never was a paganism so, in theory, there shouldn't be a neo-paganism - but there is, because we say so

As far as I know neo-paganism is a term which is used for those people who other pagans see as following a path other than something which is seen to be ancient like Druidry or Heathenism

Julia

O.K, I'm somewhat out of my league here, but I'll chuck in my penny's worth just for the hell of it .

There didn't use to be a specific religion called paganism, no. Just a load of different people doing a load of different things, all with a different name...which is pretty much what paganism today is!!

The term paganism is an umbrella term for loads of different traditions - some of which may be very old and some of which are probably not. The reason that they are clumped together under the term paganism is that somewhere along the line they have certain things in common, and they can't be classed as another established religion such as Hinduism or Christianity.

The example of the dinosaurs was good, so I'll nick that .
The dinosaurs didn't call themselves dinosaurs because they didn't know the term and didn't need one...we decided that's what they are called but it doesn't at all change what they were.
In a similar way, just because ancient pagans didn't call themselves that and we do, doesn't change the essence of them or their varied religions.

As far as the term neo-paganism goes (and I don't really use it myself), I would assume it's just a way of emphasisng that we don't know exactly what happened in the past, cannot claim to follow it exactly and therefore are openly admitting this is a new religion. Based on various ancient beliefs but interpreted and followed by modern day people.

And now, I shall no doubt be proved to be talking absolute crap....

Esk,

Thanks for the tip, I'll spend time reading through the old post. And I agree with your comment that a lot of history was never written or lost to us today. That is a shame for I love research and I do wish there was such a thing as a time machine.

Julia,

My sincere apologies to you, in asking my questions as a researcher I am only crossing all the "T's" and dotting all the "I's" making such that I don't miss anything. When I research, I remove all favoritism pro or con to any subject and only deal with the data, seeking facts, or calculating facts from the little data that is provided. Therefore, I understand how such can be viewed as mechanical, and as I posted yesterday, I know that paganism being to each person whatsoever they desire for paganism to be to them, have a paganism that is very personal for each person's paganism is a creation of their souls, thoughts and feelings. Therefore hard data and facts is cold and heartless to a human being's love, compassion and feelings. This I do understand, and apart from my research that is mechanical, my heart gives to you a sincere apology for any disruptions.

Odin d'Avalon

Peeble,

I have to agree with everthing that you stated in your post. IMO, you are 100% right on, your comments support the conclusions of my research. Thank you for your reply.

I've concluded posting my questions on this site but I just wanted you to know that your comments were right on the money.

Blessings,

Odin d'Avalon




POSTED NOTICE: ...............................


To all:

I can see by some of the replies that my questions are being seen too mechanical and so of the 279 research questions that I have, having posted to 4 of those questions:

(1) Core of Paganism
(2) Paganism an Umbrella Term
(3) Neo-paganism
(4) The term Pagan

... and now seeing that my questions are beginning to cause mixed reactions apart from conclusive answers as data in evidence to dispute my research. I will not be posting any of the other 275 questions in my research on this site. And I will now just blend in as a member, rarely posting, and simply enjoy this site as a reader and occasionally visit the chatroom to chat about life's issues.

Truly no offense was ever meant to be given. My deepest and sincere apologies to anyone that was offended by any of my research questions.

Odin d'Avalon

Yep, pagan meaning countrydweller.

Scath

Odin...

You need to chill. We dont have a problem answering your questions. One of the reasons is that it gives us a chance to discuss amongst ourselves the ins and outs of who we are. Being posed questions about our paths does not weaken us, in fact it gives us more chance to look at what we are doing and may assist us in working towards assisting those who do not understand what we are. If we can understand your perspective and help your understanding then I think we welcome it.

That said, as Pebble said we are not spores from a mushroom nor are we some creature that can not be identified and needs to be placed under a microscope. Your style of questioning lacks consideration. Consderation for the fact that we are people with emotions and not robots who can answer your questions without feeling. Perhaps you might find that the hostility people are sending your way, (USA or UK) may have something to do with your style rather than the actual questions themselves.

If you are researching religion seriously, then someone at some time MUST have taught you how to approach subjects, how to introduce the questions that you have. If they havent, and Im am NOT trying to be patronising, drop me a pm. I have studied both psychology and sociology and would be more than happy to offer you some tips on how to work with living subjects.

Xalle,

>Odin... You need to chill.

REPLY: Xalle, *smiles* I most certainly hope that you are anyone on this site does not think that I am having emotions or am stressing out over posting here, or having a problem with the replies that I've received to my questions, for such is certainly not the case. I am perfectly fine, not a problem. Thank you for your concern.


>We dont have a problem answering your questions.

REPLY: That's fine, and I'll enjoy reading every opinion made.


>One of the reasons is that it gives us a chance to discuss amongst ourselves the ins and outs of who we are. Being posed questions about our paths does not weaken us, in fact it gives us more chance to look at what we are doing and may assist us in working towards assisting those who do not understand what we are. If we can understand your perspective and help your understanding then I think we welcome it.

REPLY: Well I did post my questions for my personal research project, to see if there were any other facts of historical data that could prove my conclusions as incorrect. And I've received pretty much all the confirmations thus far that I think I will receive. Speaking of the history of paganism, and not where paganism will go tomorrow.

.... if you and others can benefit from your discussions of my questions posed, and it will help you and others to make a better paganism for the future, then I'm very content that my posts not only answered my questions, but that such will also be of a benefit to you and others as well. That's great.


>That said, as Pebble said we are not spores from a mushroom nor are we some creature that can not be identified and needs to be placed under a microscope. Your style of questioning lacks consideration. Consderation for the fact that we are people with emotions and not robots who can answer your questions without feeling. Perhaps you might find that the hostility people are sending your way, (USA or UK) may have something to do with your style rather than the actual questions themselves.

REPLY: And that is why I've ended my questions, and why I have posted apologies stating that my research was and is very factual, mechanical, searching exclusively for historical data, completely wihtout passion or prejudice to the outcome, neither pro or con for paganism, simply unearthing the facts.

.... And why I also posted that I understand that on the otherside of the coin there is the human factor, that I understand this, and that for cause of the human factor I have learned not to asked too many of my questions all at once.

.... In the U.S. as long as pagans where able to answer my questions they were find, but when I would post questions as I did on this site, a few hard questions that dispense with the myths and hit straight to the reality of the issues, it causes a disruption in one's comfort zones, and in turn I do not receive answers, but lectures about my style of questions, and then personal comments to my cold hearted outlook on life (that is as far as things got on this site), then if I continue next is libel, defamation of my character, then all out attacks and finally removal of my membership. WHY? Because no one is able to answer my questions. And if I continue to post additional questions, I know what will happen, and so I'm done posting my questions here so that I may simply remain here in peace and enjoy the site.



>If you are researching religion seriously, then someone at some time MUST have taught you how to approach subjects, how to introduce the questions that you have. If they havent, and Im am NOT trying to be patronising, drop me a pm. I have studied both psychology and sociology and would be more than happy to offer you some tips on how to work with living subjects.

REPLY: I understand what you are saying, truly I do. On some sites I've asked questions of a much lesser impact and with great consideration, and I've found that as long as posters are able to give an answer to the questions, everything is fine. However, even with great considersations and dipolmacy, if a group was unable to answer the questions, they felt boxed in, not able to give an answer to paganism's history as posed. Once a group is unable to answer the questions, they ignore the questions and focus their replies on the questioner. Now you may be perfectly find having the ability to deal with the questions posed, even if you cannot provide factural data to overcome my conclusions, however there are several posts that were made in the last 24 hours showing that members were unhappy not with the questions, but with me, that is with my style of writing. Instead of answering the questions, posters are directing their attention at my style of asking a question, thereby avoiding the questions/answers and dealing with the questioner? You know that old saying of the message vs. the messenger? That is why I am done.

.... I understand that this is a defensive mechanism, a way to cope with what was read, and I don't have a problem with it becauase (1) I understand it, and (2) I am very experienced at seeing this happen. So no offense has been taken on this end for all the things that have been stated towards my person and my style of writing and my unhuman form of research.

.... Some posters have answered my questions agreeing with my conclusions, like "Yes paganism isn't a religion" then digging into my person for having asked the question or in the manner in which I asked the question? And some saying "What's the point" admitting that my conclusions are correct but then hammer on me for asking the question in the first place. And saying "Odin, to need to change your thinking" again ignoring the questions/answers and focusing on the questioner, etc., etc. So why continue, I'm done.

.... I have asked these questions in many styles and again (1) If posters have an answer - not a problem no matter what the style in which the questions was asked. however (2) If posters are not able to answer the questions except to agree to the conclusions of the reality of pagan issues - there is always a problem no matter how the questions were asked because the end result is what people don't like and not the manner in which the questions were asked. Everybody loves to be on the winning side, and so no matter what suggestions you have, the end results will still be the same if people cannot answer the questions.

IN CONCLUSION:

Again thank you for your post, I have not been offended by any post made to any questions that I have posted, I truly desire to just become a member/reader, and I wish everyone success for a better tomorrow for paganism.

Odin d'Avalon

On a slightly related subject you would find British Prehistoric Archaeology to be of great interest. But we also have those here who fail to understand and grasp prehistory. There is always someone who says that Stonehenge should be restored to how our ancestors had it, not realising that the stone circle was never completed, and that it was only one of several Phases over the centuries as needs and ritual ideas changed.

All we know about our ancestors behaviour is from artefacts and remains, obviously nothing exists in writing from that period in Britain.

Out of interest although I agree with your answer, not that for me it needed research since there never was a religion called Paganism, it is in theory, utterly possible that there could have been something called Paganism because the written word as found in this country is very young. It is possible (but utter bollox!) that our Mesolithic and Neolithic ancestors verbally called their ritual practise paganism because writing did not exist all those millenia ago before the good records by the Romans began

Worth noting there was no religion called Hinduism until a couple of hundred years ago either, yet their beliefs and religious system is one of the oldest known to man.

Does the fact they weren't called Hindus back then and are now de-value their religion as well?

Rhiannon

What the hecks all of this about about then ?

Us...a research project....?"

Quote:

"Well, I am very impressed by all the replies that I have received to my first research project question, and to the high level of intelligence found on this site,

Aaawww shucks....Thanks Odin.

re: Dave,

>What the hecks all of this about about then ?

>Us...a research project....?"

REPLY: No Dave, you folks are not my research project. My research project is to discover the validity of paganism as a religion, if such a validation existed, first for my personal involvement, and secondly that I know that what information is being presented to the public is true and correct. Speaking of paganism in the U.S. exclusively. Not at all interested in involving myself in the political affairs of another person nation, just needing to deal with certain issues here in the States.

.... as UK paganism is considered the Motherland from our side of the pond, I am a member here to learn about UK paganism, and how can that knowledge in turn solve the problems of U.S. paganism?

Odin d'Avalon

Quote:

"My research project is to discover the validity of paganism as a religion, if such a validation existed, first for my personal involvement, and secondly that I know that what information is being presented to the public is true and correct."

You really have your work cut out.

No-one has yet come up with a definitive and universally acceptible treatise on that little lot.

Sorry for my flippancy Odin, we're a touchy lot.
I must reiterate what has already been stated by others in answer to some of your previous research questions:

1) You will find most of your answers by reviewing the many existing topics. Just take a browse down the many pages of topic headings in the various forums looking out for headings relating to your questions, I'm sure that you find what you seek.

2) We can be a touchy bunch and whilst we understand that your manner might be a little more clinical than ours, please try not to appear quite so condescending. I'm sure that it isn't intentional on your part, but it sure as hell reads that way at this end.

I do find it highly amusing that you consider the UK to be "The Motherland" of paganism.

Good hunting.

I have an overwhelming urge to squeak, eat cheese, and clean my whiskers

I'm with the others on this... I've enjoyed your thread ideas so far, but you are asking in a manner that is too clinical and comes across as crass, over-bearing and patronising. It is clear that this is not how you've inteded to come across, but it is, unfortunately, how we've all interpreted it.

I don't see any reason for you to stop posting your research questions, but maybe posting them as general enquiries rather than soul-less questions would generate a better response.

can i just say (as im in a strange, 'look its late' mood.
when i first heard the term neo pagan, i thought it meant a cyber pagan, someone who wears a suit, carrys a case and works in the city.
otherwise called a yuppie pagan hehe