end

Ever the self effacing wallflower Touchstone, don't hold back, tell us what you really think!

I would like to point out first that it might just be possible to self initiate by rather more meaningful ways than you illustrate, and that if someone can self initiate in that way I'd say it's just possible that they have more power than you or I will ever know.

Having said that-
1) No, I feel no need whatsoever. As I've said before here, I don't for one second feel that one day I became pagan, I always was. The land, the lord and the lady have always known me, even if I didn't realise it at the time, when I did realise it there was never any need to vocalise or ceremonialise that realisation, it was more of a mutual nod and carry on. As for gaining bonding and power, neither are things I paticularly seek and I work very much alone so I'm not sure what anyone else's opinion or acceptance would mean to me, any power I have is my own and my own business.

2) +3) - see above.

Self effacing....wah? Me no speaky anglais

currently preparing myself for my initiation, not easy, mentally exhausting and requiring a devotion of time that leaves room for nothing else. I do find it quite insulting when i can pick up several books of my book shelf and read the chapter on self initiation, run through the ritual and call myself initiated.

Yes, it is the Goddess and God that inititates you, but you earn it. Hard work and lots of it. Not reading a book and a few visualisation exercises. I will take my initiation when the High Priestess and High Priest deem me ready.

Initiation is entering a Pagan Priesthood, I was grilled and made to soul search to be sure that is something I wanted to do. I have seen no mention of this in self initiation rites. My personal opinion is that in telling people that they have to become similar to an xtain priest would frighten the pants of the majority of readers so it conviently missed out. You can't walk into the xtian bookstore and pick up a book that contains the ceremonies to initiate as an xtian priest etc in a month. So why assume Pagans can. It belittles the value of effort that is put in by the initiate.

I did a self dedication ritual many moons ago, but all this was for me to make a promise that I have choosen this path and i'll do my best to walk it. This is far from an initiation. That night the Gods might have turned round and said oh look at this W*^$%£ wanting to be a witch. The night of my initiation they will be there with me saying can you believe he actually did it.

I don't want to be disrespectful to all those that have worked hard and preformed and been rewarded with self initiation for themselves, but those that have initiated themselves a month after picking up a book, wake up only person you are fooling is yourself. Kids put more effort into the initiation for Scouts and Girl Guides than these books tell you to put in for their rites.

Most initiations can be found on the internet now, so there is no secrets about them anymore. However, as my High Priestess informs me, one requirement for a witch is to be inventive, and that i'm not to expect only what i have read.


Sorry, but I just see it as yet another Hijacked term used to jazz up the commericalised Pagan Bandwagan, that is making some people a nice little earning.
Was there such as thing as self initiation before we had these books??
Yeah it was called a personal rites of passage, and that was a serious undertaking.

well that's my slant on "my" religion from where I am sitting.

I did a self dedication years ago, and it wasn't like just reading a book and lighting a few tea candles. It was a very personal thing with no "i am yours to control" in it..
It was me feeling that I had found my path and telling the gods that I intended to walk it.
I don't really feel the need for another sort of initiation, and if I did, I don't think I would just copy it from a book.

I've never been initiated, it was never something I felt needed doing. Like Esk, its always been there, and my um.. path and history is family based, in the blood as it were.

That said, I would never belittle someone elses initiation, arnt we getting into the snobbery thing again? Some people just want a dedication for themselves as a way of wiping the slate clean... a way of saying.. that WAS my life, this now IS my life. And the power comes from the intent. You dont need a night on the mountain to find the power thats already in you... its just one way of releasing it.

I do however think that Blaidd is right when he says that people who pick up a book one month and initiate themselve the next are kidding themselves. Nothing is that simple, but then, these people tend to be looking for a "quick fix" and that never works anyway.

In my opinion initiation is something people seem to need.. rather than it actually being necessary. Gives them a sense of purpose and a way to connect to what already lies inside.

So to me, self initiation... a night on a hill... or months preparing for initiation by a priest or priestess are all the same. They are just a way of tapping in. None is any better than the other.

I'm not actually initiated into vodou for a number of reasons, partly the financial expense (I'll explain about this in a minute), partly the fact its unsafe to travel to Haiti right now and most priests will only perform initiations out there, very often in the temple of their own initiator, but mainly because the spirits have not (yet) asked it of me. If they do ask, it's not something you can safely ignore!

There are three grades of initiation into vodou - hounsi, who assists priests and priestesses in the running of the vodou temple, houngan (male) or mambo (female) sur point, who leads ceremonies and is initiated under the patronage of a certain loa, and houngan/mambo asogwe. This is the highest grade of initiation and allows the new priest/ess to then initiate others and to set up a temple of their own if they so wish.

The vast majority of vodouisants are not initiated - to join the priesthood is a huge responsibility, both spiritual and social as the new priest has an obligation to help and support their community and initiates, helping the poor and hungry, working magic for the problems of thier congregation etc.

The initiation itself takes a good few days. It costs a lot of money because the initiatory candidate must pay for drummers to play at ceremonies, for several different sets of ritual clothing, for the time of the houngan/mabo who performs the initiation, plus the time energy and knoweldge of all that priest's assistants and for many other costs as well. Unfortuntely the financial aspect has led to a number of commercially minded clergy who will perform initiation to anyone who can pay, no matter if they have he right reasons or the moral fibre, for want of a better word, for the priesthood.

The initiation itself is known as a kanzo, and the process as the kouche (pronounced koo-shay) . Initiates are secluded in an inner room of the temple, known as the djevo, for a numbe rof days. What happens during the process is supposed to be a tightly kept secret but a number of people have described it and it's not hard to find the details if you do your own research. I'm not going to say it out of respect for the secrecy that's supposed to be kept, but anyone genuinely interested will be able to find out fairly easily.

What I will say about the process is that like any shamanistic tradiiton, the initiation requires a ritual symbolic death and rebirth. In fact initiates are considered dead to the mortal world from the moment they step inside the djevo, and when they emerege they wear white clothing and they cover their faces with broadbrimmed hats, keeping silent, with thier eyes lowered until they are given their initiatory name by the officiating houngan/mambo, after which they are considered back in the world of the living and there's a big big party!

One ceremony I'm definitely planning to have done eventually, and quite possibly the next time I'm in New Orleans is the lave tet - a ritual washing of the head in a special herbal mixture which can be carried out by any priest or priestess and doesn't necessitate travel to haiti. This clears out all the spiritual blockages and unpleasantness hanging over you and acts as a general spiritual refresher and recharging of batteries. It also helps dispel negativity and gives the spirits a clearer path through which to speak to you.

While this isn't an initiation by any means, when I actually have it done I'll look upon it as a form of self-dedication, but that's just my own personal view of the ceremony.

when I first started to acknowledge my path I was heavily dependent on books as I had no access to any other source of info. This did leave me with a feeling that I ought to have all the tools, and the herbs and crystals, that I ought to pick a magical name and perform an initiation. Fortunately, one idea that I came across very early on was the year and a day of study being required before initiation could be carried out. As I could never devote what I deemed to be sufficient time to study, I never felt I was ready.

As I got further into my path, I realised that none of the tools or ceremonies were required, at least not in the exact words that were written in the books. I have been known to ask for help and guidance by shouting "Will somebody just f***ing show me what I'm meant to be doing!" No ceremony, not even any manners... but I always say thank you.

A couple of years ago, however, I decided that I'd like to have some form of initiation. Nothing grand, nothing public, and definately no element of "I'm your's to control". I just wanted to say thank you for all the things I might have forgotten, and state that I was gonna do my best to look after the land etc. So I did. Just me, in my garden, having a chat with thin air. The last time I'd done that was when I left the xtian church at 15 - I'd sat in the garden and explained to god that it wasn't that I didn't believe in him/her, it was that I didn't agree with the way the xtians saw him.

Since then, I've been doing meditation work, and aspects of the gods have made themselves known. I've been given a name by them, along with the staff that I'm now growing, and it's a domain I feel happy in.

One thing I plan on doing soon is having a 'lady' tattoo done behind my left ankle. It'll be similar to my 'man' tattoo with a 5 point star in there as well. This won't exactly be a dedication of myself to the goddess, in the same way the 'man' wasn't a dedication to the god. It's more an expression of their aspects within me.

1. Do you feel the need to be initiated

Hmm, I felt the need to be dedicated. I'm not aure the two are the same.

2.Have you been initiated? What happened and what was the process like?

The first time, I did self initiation, as I knew no other pagans. The second time, I self-initiated because there is no official initiation for my Deity. Quite frankly, I don't believe there should be an official initiation for my Deity, as her path should not be undertaken lightly. This isn't to suggest that a formal intiation would do so, but, well, sometimes I think it's easy to fall under peer pressure even when one isn't intending to.

3. Self initiation (i.e lights a few tea candles and chants "i am yours to control etc") and the sol wiccan one...have you done it?

Twice. I used a book the first time, and have written one for others to use on my website (currently unavailable), which is based on the one I did years and years and years ago. I took a ritual bath, spoke ritual words and did other things which I shan't go into. The second ritual took place outdoors, and like the first, was very fulfilling, although very different apart from the bath.

Hope that answers some of your questions.

Dryad

Just out of interest, Dryad, who is your deity?

First off... how you see it and how it IS are not necessarily the same thing love

Secondly...



Calling someone an idiot IS belittling them.

Third

Self initiation.. IS initiation, you may consider it otherwise.. that doesnt mean you are right.

Finally

Im not a love and lighter ask anyone on here who knows me. I just dont appreciate your juvenile and crass approach.

Im not some kid new onto the path, and Im not some hopless dreamer looking for a quick fix. Ive been on my path for 17 years. You need need to realise that theres room and validity to MANY forms of initiation. And as Esk rightly said...



You dont like my opinon tough. You think you can "come down hard on me" bring it on.

Sheesh.. some people.

wow woohoo go Xalle Go !!


errr.....sorry just wanted to up the juicyness!!!

* aimee goes beetroot red and slowly edges to the door as every one turns to stare in her direction !!! *

I would agree with part of your comment to a certain degree Touchstone, but would say that such people are not insulting Paganism. They may be considered by some people, to be insulting the wiccans religion / religious beliefs. by attempting to self initiate into that group. In just the same way that a person could be accused of insulting xtian catholicism, if they claimed to be catholic, but did not attend the catholic church and go through all the catholic rites and ceremonies and other bull s***.
You have to keep in mind the fact that wiccans and even real witches, may be pagans, but pagans do not have to be Wiccans or even witches.


No. Because I am Pagan, not a wiccan or a believer in deities, I am an Atheist.


No.


Only Wiccans, need to follow the modern rites annd regulations that seem to have been set in concrete, by people like Gardner and others. Paganism is not and never has been and never will be a religion, so has no similar rules to follow or rites to perform.

Hi Pasher,

"Only Wiccans, need to follow the modern rites annd regulations that seem to have been set in concrete, by people like Gardner and others."

With respect, Wiccans don't need to, and of course a great many of us wouldn't even think of doing so. Most of the Wiccans I know are passionately independent-minded folk who accept nothing without question and test everything against their own experience over the years. Gardner seems to have been a very complex character, genuinely inspired but with more than a bit of the trickster about him. We owe him a very great deal, including the recognition that he was a human being with all that goes with it, not a messiah of any kind. He was adopting, adapting, and evolving material as he went along, and a large proportion of the initiatory Craft has kept right on doing that. To treat his, or any others, writings as credal is to miss the point. The ritual traditions of Gardnerian Wicca are honoured, and used, by those who find them effective and judgements of that kind cannot be arrived at by reading books. But Gardnerian Wicca is not a doctrinal path, it is an experiential Mystery religion and its core validation lies in the experience of the sacred which initiates find within it. In itself it contains almost as much diversity of belief and practice as the rest of the Pagan movement. Wicca is a part, a part only, of Paganism in general and of Pagan Witchcraft in particular. It is neither better nor worse than any other path, merely more or less appropriate for any given individual. Those for whom it is the right path will find their way to it and stay with it. Others will find the other paths that are right for them. Hutton rightly observed that a key element in the survival and flourishing of Wicca is its protean quality.

BB,

John Macintyre

You knew it was only a matter of time until I could resist no longer didn't you?

Can I go back a few steps please?

Where does the basic idea of Initiation or Dedication to a Path, Deity ot Deities come from?

Isn't it just taken as a standard requirement throughout nearly all of the worlds religions. A piece of phsychological conditioning that we've all come to accept and feel a need for as a result of millennia of human spirituality?

I'm trying to think of a spiritual path that doesn't at some point hold a requirement for some form of dedication ot initiation, at the moment nothing springs to mind.

Is it something that we need to do as an aid to our own spiritual understanding or is it really something that the deities require of us, or is it both, or neither?

I'm not going to say that I havn't expressed this sentiment to the Lord and Lady, in fact there have been many occasions over the years when I've literally spoken to them and told them of my commitment. This is a private and deeply held, expression of commitment between me and them alone and it isn't a one-off situation in fact it's something that I do in some form several times throughout the course of any year.

There have been times out climbing, camping in the hills, wandering the local woods or even sitting in my own living room that I've approached them and told them this, and been answered in various ways.

I've never felt the need to spend a night on a hill, be initiated into a coven or walk across hot coals in order to further demonstrate this commitment.

I don't think that I'm alone in this approach in fact I know that I'm not.

As John quite rightly indicated above; something that is a spiritual need or requirement for one person may not necessarily be so for another and the form that any dedication or initiation takes may be equally diverse.

What is important from my point of view is our actual and ongoing personal and individual relationships with the deities, far more so than what or who's idea of the best way to demonstrate that devotion we choose.

Well said that man!

I couldn't agree more!

And for that reason I don't think anyone has the right to tell someone else that what they're doing is either invalid, or wrong, or stupid. To attempt to do so merely demonstrates (in my own view) ignorance and intolerance and just sheer rudeness!

This is an interesting thread

I think that there is room for those who wish to self initate (regardless of what I personally feel about them) but feel that does not make them wiccan if that was what they were trying to initate themselves into. However I disagree with that they did not gain a bond, the Gods were here millenia before the advent of Wicca, this then says that only coven initated Wiccans can have a bond with the Gods? So where do other paths come into then? As for gaining them power? How? Why would they want to? But to self initate with the candles and fluff does not insult Paganism since paganism is so diverse as to have a place for these, and besides many learn more and change their leanings the further along the path they get

1). Do you feel the need to be initiated

No, but I did dedicate myself to learning more. I'd read for years then finally put my words and thoughts into actions.

For me here the land is key. Yet it came to me, not me to the land. I have no need to want to initate myself to the land, I am a mere part of the land. I look after it to the best of my ability and it looks after me, again it just is, not anything deliberate. There is an inherent power here, so strong that the whole cottage and garden can seem to throb with the energy of the woods that surround it. It is felt by non-pagans too. It is not a power I ask for or request, it just is. Some places have it, some don't. Not all Pagans feel the need for wanting land power. Not all Pagans worship deity either as has been pointed out.

Initation is an affirmation of your own beliefs no matter how peculiar some of them are The danger is assuming that your own path so suited to you is the only right one and that all others are wrong in their beliefs and workings.

*phew* is it me, or is it getting warm in here?

Touchstone, you make some very good points in your first post, but there are a couple of things with which I don't agree.

I don't believe that anyone who does a self initiation is an idiot, or an insult to paganism. There are many different paths out there, and not all of them demand the same thing in the same way from all its followers (good job really, otherwise we'd all be fundie xtians)

I believe that someone who has self-initiated into Wicca is not a Wiccan, and needs to find out more about the Wiccan path, however I don't think it makes them an idiot, nor does it insult the rest of us. Of course, if they then wander round claiming to be High Priestess of the fairydolphinvampyre coven, that's another matter.

Fact remains that there are a lot of people out there who have read Cunningham, West, or whoever, and found something that strikes a chord with them, then gone and read whatever else they could lay their hands on, found it says the same and decided that it is the path for them. I may not agree with what they read, I may not agree with many of their beliefs, and i may get vey VERY angry should they belittle what others have done, but they are still pagans, and just because they read SilverRaven Wolf and believe in the full Rede, doesn't mean that they don't have a connection to the gods, and doesn't mean they can't learn and develop their path further (hopefully away from the whole cosmic dolphin thing )

Okaay, on to the questions-

1) No, I don't feel the need to be initiated, as it's not part of my path. I'm a hedgewitch, I've been doing it for a good while now, and I reckon the Gods are well aware of what I am and how I feel about them already.

2) Nope, but I've heard that for those who have been (into the Wiccan trad in this instance) it was an immensely spiritual and fulfilling experience.

3) Self initiation? Yes Following detailed reading of Scott Cunningham, I initiated myself into the Solitary Wiccan tradition at the age of 16, and became a fully fledged Wiccan priestess

About 2 years later I discovered Doreen Valiente, Rae Beth, and the Mabinogi, which definitely got me thinking. Then my views on such matters as sexuality, morals, love and 'the dark side' developed, and I came to the conclusion that I was a rather silly teenager, who really needed to get to grips with the concepts of a: personal responsibility b: the idea that not everything on the net is a reliable source of info and c: real life. That was the end of my Wiccan phase!

Hecate



Dryad

Says it all really... have you even read what others have posted here..taken ANY of it in? Part of any pagan path, is the growth we make as individuals, that growth makes us stronger. Stronger in our beliefs, stronger with magic (if you use it) and gives us a stronger connection to either our deities or the land or both, depending on the path you are on. Its very hard for anyone to grow, if they think they have nothing to learn.

And as for liking or lumping your attitude... well once again, you seem to think that the "hell of a fella" approach will achieve something.. what... I have no idea, appart from the alienation of the people you question and the collective sighs as people wonder why someone who OBVIOUSLY has intellegent intent, can take such a precocious child approach. So I'll lump it thanks very much, and continue to challenge you if I feel its warranted.

im not a wiccan, or however yeh spell it, but surely its the case of, if you feel you want to have an intiation, or some spelt like that, then you go for it.
self intiation, its like saying, yes i am pleadging my life to my path.
its not hurting anyone is it.
i think everyone answered it now.

question for touchstone.
1. does it really matter?
2. do you think everyone has answered your question
3. do you know when to drop it?
maybe you have something about your path that people may disergree with, but its your path, you choose to do it and its nothing to do with anyone unless you want advise.
so expect the same from others.
its not nice to say, stuff you, i dont bellieve it in so it must be wrong, theres no right and wrong, theres just an idea, and if it works, then so be it.

love n huggles be, stormy (who is still wide awake at 4.am)

and no, i didnt know what i was talking about

I really like you being around Touchstone, you make me seem so reasonable by comparison.



In comparison to the last month....you aint seen nothin' yet

I love it here....

It has to be said that the idea of initiation making you closer to the land is a bit of an odd concept for me. I see the land as an extension of the gods, not an entity in its own right, so I'm not sure how I feel about that idea. Any chance of a lil more info on that one Touchstone?

I'm also interested in your idea that there are people who light a candle and tell the gods that they are theirs to be controlled. I've never encountered anyone who's done that, perhaps I've been lucky or perhaps they didn't phrase it like that

Now, this brings me onto fate. Do the gods already control us? The nuber of times I've wanted something to go one way, and no amount of pratical or magical work has brought it about. Then further down the line it turns out that it would have been bad if I had got what I wanted. Is that the hand of the gods? And even if the gods don't control us, they probably have the power to, so would they require an invitation from a novice with some candles and a SRW book?

No-one here has said that they did the "you can control me" initiation, but a lot of us have mentionned that we can clearly see the influence of the gods over us and our lives. Quite a few of us (in other threads) have said that the gods we work with found us and nudged us towards the 'right' path. Some were even guided into paganism by the gods. Is that the gods controlling us, even though we gave them no such permission?

If a lil fluff-bunny does says that he's prepared to be controlled by the gods, is he being naive in thinking that the gods will wait til he gives them permission?

Just a few thoughts...

Hehe, who's for starting that one




Heh, a bit arrogant are we??
yours just happen to be the most right for you, and even if I don't believe in the I'm yours to controll thing (who does??) either, your way will not be best for me..
I don't want to change your mind, but to say that what you believe is right, and that what anyone else believe is wrong and an insult to paganism is just.......
GRrrrrr
Everyone has their own path to follow, that's the whole point of being pagan to me, that I find my own way..
If I needed someone to tell me what to believe, I could just be a xtian...
Weeeel, if I think about it, I couldn't, but there we are..

I think it's only fluffies who think they can light a few candles and read a book to declare themselves initiated or a priestess. It's like taking communion at a mass then declaring yourself Catholic.

To me, God/Goddess/ or any other type of Guides has a personal relationship with someone and if they feel initiation is necessary than why not? And why not do the initiation yourself? What is the difference if one goes out into the wilderness for 24 hours with just fire for company, or uses meditation and visualization to achieve the same thing? A oneness with a divine (for lack of better wording)

I do agree that a lot of learning AND understanding of where you are or where you might be going needs to take place first and it tends to take some time. Sometime we may act too quickly, looking for a quicker way to get it done and that almost always is a mistake...and a learning experience.

Initiation, IMHO, is a formalization of your path and adherence to a certain amount of dogma in that there are certain things you must believe, like those in Wicca and the Reade. So Solitary's may or may not want an intitiation for I don't think it's necessary in all paths. Many see dedication is all that is necessary to have a relationship with the Gods/Goddess and I agree. The amount of power one has is a matter of choice and not a matter of having to go through a formal ritual to attain more power.

you need not prove yourself to me

You got that right.

Next!

Dryad

dryad does my bum look big in this dress?

Firstly a little point here.

We all have our own views and beliefs; it doesn't help anyone to assume that yours are the right ones and everyone else should believe the same.

So - to some the Land is its own being while to others it is just an extension of the gods.

Some have gods who do not require humans to prove themselves; others have gods that reward this effort. Others have no gods at all.

Initiation can mean two things - firstly it can mean that you grant someone membership and pass them secrets and honours - this is something that a solitary can not easily do - unless they have multiple personality disorder.

However it can also mean to start, and a solitary who performs any ritual, be it with candles or just simply solemnizing their decision is certainly initiating themselves onto their new path. That is they are starting their new direction; they are initiating that course – the process is initiation.

Now to your questions:

1. Do you feel the need to be initiated

I thought I did.

3. Self initiation (i.e lights a few tea candles and chants "i am yours to control etc") and the sol wiccan one...have you done it?

I will answer this before 2 so you can see the difference. I started out with a simple self initiation, tea-lights, incense and a full circle ritual. I said words, I felt for answers (there was a ripple – but nothing much) and after I had finished I felt more or less the same.
It was over 4 years later that I actually got my proper initiation. For that we go on to question 2

2.Have you been initiated? What happened and what was the process like?

I found that initiation when it came, was more a case of meeting my gods, or more precisely really meeting my goddess. It was a case of proving myself worthy of her stewardship (that’s the closest I can come up with at this time of night) and then seeing if she could scare me off. She didn’t (though it was a close call) and having past that test I learnt as much about me as I did her. I came out of the experience on an emotional high and with more energy than the national grid. I was also changed. A fair few of my previous understandings had been overturned and I literally felt that I had gone from being in play school to university in the blink of an eye.
This was the real thing. No candles, no robes, no oils or silly words just a deep commitment and a new purpose.

Touchstone, there is one point I feel I must directly address; in your postings you say that you want initiation for the power and indicate that others are, perhaps, fooling themselves with their understanding of their paths, ‘all “bright blessings and merry meet” ‘ is the term you use. Well I’m sorry you see it that way, but for many their path is a means to further themselves both spiritually and emotionally, they seek to gain strength and balance within themselves, and not just to satisfy any shallow cravings of power.

I can’t claim to speak for all (been there, done that, got the flame singed t-shirt) but I am betting that a fair few take their path as a part of their life and not just as a power toy. Fair enough to each their own, but that applies both ways.

Kev

Exactly Cosmic_Fool, very well said..

Hehe, be all you can be?
I have no need for power, but if you do, fine..
I don't really feel like going around brightest blessing people either, but let the people that want to, brightest bless as much as they want..
Perhaps they like the fluffy stuff?



Yes, yes, i saw the first part, doesn't make you any less arogant if you warn people first..

Merry meet, merry part and merry meet again

I'd read about Gardnerian initiations when I first began the path and they seemed so definite so right. They are a path but not my path.

I realised that for me initiations can be meaningful, beautiful, educational and strengthening but can also be heirachical and dogmatic. I chose self dedication instead but do ritual work with pagan groups.

I question why we commit to one person in handfasting for a year and a day, unless we are lucky enough to find our soul mate, and then we committ to a number of people through initiation forever.

I also question if "Perfect Love and Perect Trust" need a binding ceremony.

My self dedication was very spiritual, I followed where my learnings led me and became open to new insights. I can say my self dedication led me to become aware of the right path for me.

BB

Spoken like someone truely out of their depth.

Well editing out your starting thread shows great maturity and debate skills

This thread will now be locked