I think this is the right forum for this if not.. someone move it for me would ya?

OK, so Im sitting last night watching late night telly and on comes this programme. Ive seen one other in the series, where she investigated "ghosts" and i was refreshed by her attitude. Open minded, willing to listen and willing to see things from others perspectives. So I have to say that my interest was peaked when I saw the title of last nights show.

Jane Goldman (Johnathan Ross's wife) was given 4 weeks to investigate the use of spell casting. It's validity, its reality or lack there of.

Now not unsurprisingly, JG had hooked herself up with some wiccans who were willing to show and try and explain to her how nagic worked.

They taught her the basics of what the power behind magic is.. ie. the intent. Showed her how to cast circles, what paticular herbs were used for, how spells were cast. They encouraged her to make her own wand, find a handle for her athame blade, how to call the powers and dispell them etc etc etc.

She spoke to scientists, paranormal researchers, wiccans and "non" wiccan spell users.

But the thing that struk me the most from the programme was one small comment she made after visiting the Boscastle Witch Museum.

She had been tutored by, like I said earlier wiccans.. and they seemed decent enough not too fluffy peeps, who took what they did seriously. She liked the affinty to earth and nature and seemed quite taken with the spiritual as much as the actual spellcasting.

Aaaanyhooo... the film crew were with her when she visited the museum and was interviewing the curator, they showed some small shots of the village in general, and a few shots of the local and very beautiful countryside.

When she got back to her room in the hotel she was staying and doing her "to diary piece" she said something very interesting. Aparently, after they had filmed some of the outside of the museum, she was approached by a woman who lived in one of the cottages in the village either opposite or very near to where they had been filming. Aparently this woman approached her in a very aggitated manner, demanding that there be no footage of her home in the programme as she was a christian, and didnt want to be assoicated with anything evil like witch craft.

Jane said she was stunned. She thought it was the most biggoted comment she had ever heard. She said.. if you substituted the word, jew, hindu, moslem, in for the word wiccan, you would be talking to the most biggoted woman in the world. She said she had seen nothing in the practices that she had studdied to suggest anything evil, in fact, she felt that the nature base of the religion was probably the most reverant of any she knew towards what anyone could class as a supreme being.

It was interesting to hear somone say that, and it got me to thinking. Why do we put up with it? Why do we allow, and have always allowed people to point the finger at us, yell at us on the streets... call us devils, devil worshipers, condemn us, burn us on wooden burny things, and we seem to stand and take it as if suffering is something we are supposed to accept.

Exactly why do we do this? Is there some sort of clause that when you choose a pagan path, that you automatically accept public condemnation? Is it an unwritten rule? I would say the most of us on here are fairly stong people and yet.. depsite the odd victory we have over the odd person, do most of us still not seem to feel that we dont or shouldnt fight back? And if so.. why?

Sorry.. its 05.30 and maybe im rambling.. if i am and none of this makes sense... someone shoot me, and remove this post.

Xalle

Hiya Xalle,
I agree its not very nice to be depicted as evil alongside the devil an other nasties, but unless a huge awareness is made to these un enlightened folk thats how it will always be.
The vast majority of these isles are christian folk an throught the ages that is what they have been taught to believe.
The older inhabitants of smaller villages an towns seem to be even more biggoted in there views, due to i expect the comunity church doing a good job on them.
I dont choose to be thought of as evil, so like most i stay in the shadows very much.
Them that know me, know how i am, ( i have the occasional evil days ) .
I fight back to those i feel the need to, i have no desire to educate the masses on me own. I explain to whom ever i see fit that deserve an explanation.
centuries of xtian preaching canot be changed over night an no matter how much exposure witches get understanding will always be limited ,because many will refuse to ever except different.
It aint even like they are all god fearing folk...just ignorent of the facts, even when given the facts folk like the lady on the programe would rather stick to their biggoted views than back down...grrr

bugger eh!

Rain

I wish I'd seen that programme, didn't even know it was on.

As far as the bigotted masses are concerned... sod em. If they wanna believe that I worship Satan and am therefore going to Hell, that's fine so long as they then clear off and leave me alone. I don't make a big song and dance about being Pagan, but I don't hide it either. If someone has a problem I will attempt to discuss it rationally with them. If they don't want to listen then i suggest that we end the conversation because we're never going to agree. if they won't shut up then I walk away. Well, that's the theory. Alot of the time I do end up getting very pissed off with them and as a result get loud and occassionally rude.

If you look at how long it's taken for blacks, gays, and even women, to be accepted then it's clear that this isn't going to be an overnight thing. i think that by the time we're the oldest generation things will have changed - at least to some extent - and hopefully to enable us to have more rights legally and to receive less abuse/slander from others.

This process has started, but it's gonna take a long time for us to be accepted by the general masses.

Point to me one person in any religion who isn't doesn't get shot down. Christians pick on Pagans, Pagans pick on Christians and so on and so forth.
Same with sexuality, same with race. No we shouldn't have to put up with it, no it shouldn't even exist but people are bigots, people are small minded.
If someone is that small minded they are the ones with the problem. I am not going to let them bother me if they can't see past their own prejudice. They don't deserve our bitterness but our pity.

The church's way of taking control of the population in the beginning was by taking over the Pagan / Druid / Pict holy sites and giving them a proscribed christain meaning. Hence, Brigid's springs became Mary's Wells, ancient stones were given Christain symbols, etc. With this "takeover" of the religious sites came the spread of intolerance and prejudice. The church took away the respect people had for the wise men and women of the "Old Religion" by making the wise ones appear as feared and hated ignorant (damned) folk so that their "New Religion" had more power over the population. Sadly this still goes on today. Fear is power.

I like the Jane Goldman series too, but didn't see this one. I missed something very special, I think.

Blessings

I'm openly pagan and I openly admit to practising witchcraft, but again I pick fights, so to speak. For instance, where I'm temping at the moment there is a Christain lady, at at Samhain she was sprouting the usual xtain rubbish, how the "holiday" celebrates the devil and evil, and tha its wrong to let children dress up as ghouls, witches, demons etc because these things are hateful to God. She also went on about Witches and how we do spells (well duh!) speak to beings we think as spirits but are actually demons, and we cast nasty spells. She did say there are some white witches who do nice spells, but again she said those types are using forces which are evil, so ultimately what they are doing is evil.

She started to give her version of the history of Samhain too. (Although she said Halloween, but did note that to Witches its known as All Hallows Eve) Most of me was laughing my butt off at her ignorance, but I was kinda miffed too.

I made some choice remarks, politely and made it known I am Pagan and a Witch, lol she did look horrified when I asked her what the difference is between me preforming a spell for say healing and invoking Gods I believe in, and the her saying a pray to her God for healing. I do actually believe there is a difference, but at a very very basic level xtains praying for this that and other is to my mind similar to a spell. The other girls in the office though were intrigued, I guess they had never thought of it like that.

That led to them asking me about witchcraft and what I did. I explained that I would never perform a spell for someone without their permission, and that I'm not harnessing the power of demons, but rather natural forces that make up the universe and I also explained I don't believe in Satan, that its an alien concept to pagans and wholly a Christain one, that to me evil is the making of mankind and I take responsibility for my actions. Of course they also asked about cursing, and I said I had no problem with it, which they looked a tad shocked at. LOL Again I explained if someone is perscuting me, tormenting me etc, then why shouldn't I defend myself? I don't go around willy nilly performing curses on poor unsuspecting individuals, and besides that I believe if I did the Universe would give me a huge kick up the backside.

The xtain lady of course was absolutely horrified, but I asked her what the difference was with me cursing someone and her cursing someone. She spluttered she doesn't curse, and I demurred, saying I'd heard her at least half a dozen times wish ill on people she thought deserved it, what then is that if not a curse. She seemed a bit stumped at that.

I didn't change her mind about Witches, but then I didnt' expect to, after all how can you argue with someone who believes you're being hoodwinked by the Devil, however, the other girls in the office at least have another view point to consider.

The sad thing is, the more and more I see Witches and Pagans in general being misunderstood and even persecuted for their beliefs the more reluctant I am to spek up, yet I do firmly believe the only way to combat this widespread ingnorance is to educate people and to put across my point of view. Its a difficult dictomy of staying secreative and safe, or speaking up and opening myself up to potential ridcule and abuse.
Perhaps the trick is to pick one's battles?

I guess this lady has a real problem though it is indicative of a particular Christian mindset too. That mindset is simply that the Christian Church brings light into a world of darkness and good into a world of evil. As C.S. Lewis says in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, "It is always winter but never Christmas." In this mindset anything outside the Church is dark and evil. "Outside the church has also at various times included Catholics and even any Christian who is not, "born again".

It never ceases to amaze me just how much damage religion does to people ! Closing minds and hearts is a terrible thing to do to others.

Needless to say, closed minds and hearts are not unique to evangelical christianity !

I could have written Very's post myself, so thanks for saving me the effort hon!

I am openly Pagan and like you, will argue the point if the opportunity arises - that doesn't mean I go around verbally prodding people into a fight, but if the topic comes up I'll make no bones about putting over my view. And, I think I've managed to, while not convert anyone to being Pagan loving, at least make some see that Paganism isn't something to be feared. Perhaps because I don't keep quiet about it and treat it as it is: perfectly normal.

At the moment, obviously, the talk at work is about xmas, and I've made no secret of the fact that I celebrate Yule, not xmas. People have been quite accepting of this, asking questions and so on, but for me, the main thing is that it's a PR exercise - Paganism is as normal as any other faith. Talk about my celebrating Samhain etc, or wanting time off at Yule etc, barely raises an eyebrow.

The woman on the Jane Goodman show was appalling. And it's an excellent point that was made by Ms Goodman - that if it had been any other word than "Witch", the woman would probably have hardly dared voice her view. It's only (in my view) by standing up and talking about our faith and our beliefs can it gradually be assimilated into what is considered "the norm" in society and excite less mis-placed hysteria.

Very - Oh to have been a fly on the wall! Sounds like you had a rational exchange of views which is always much more productive than an over emotional 'drama'

As for speaking out I'm just not sure, half of me thinks I don't give a toss what people think but I also get quite indignant that ignorance prevails.
What concerns me is what happens when those unchallenged (ignorant) thoughts develop into actions which ultimately could have some horrific consequences..... Most people are aware of the law and that we should be protected under it but legislation is hardly something you would quote to your neighbours or people in the street. Those who are ignorant of the meaning/beliefs of Paganism generally wouldn't give a hoot about the law.
We had a good example locally a couple of weeks ago, a fundie Christian wrote in to the local paper damning Halloween and the devil, nearly half a page in the 2 successive weeks was given over to letter from outraged pagans exercising their right to reply.
Did it change any minds? I have no idea but it did show that a proportion of Pagans who could be bothered to write in were intelligent human beings who would not put up with rubbish being printed about them.
A few years ago that would not have happened so I think maybe we do need to speak out when appropriate.

ooops rambled on a bit, I may edit on re reading it!

I haven't had time to read through all the replies, so apologies if this has already been mentioned...

The raving christian nutter who didn't want her home filmed was probably the place almost directly across from the museum... run by, you guessed it, a raving christian nutter with all manner of anti witchcraft nonsense. Its nice to know the museum can give such purpose to people's lives isn't it?!

I remember seeing the woman interviewed once... I'm being kind when I call her a raving nutter... no really I am...

If it was that place then just as an aside I'd like to mention that her building got wiped out by the floods! A shame as it was an historic building but the insurance form would have been interesting......
Reason for claim? 'An act of God'
On the local news when commenting on the destruction of the Christian shop and the the fact that the museum was still standing a local said 'the devil looks after his own.....' he he he the irony of it.

I've seen that episode (don't worry Fuzi, it's been repeated several times already so chances are it'll be repeated again).

Just a few points on the issue of bigotry.

I've found Paganism is a lot more accepted now than it was a decade ago. Like Fuzi and Rain said in their posts, things aren't going to change overnight.

Concerning that woman that Jane came across - she sounds like a nutcase. I used to work with someone like her. Evangelical Christian that spouted all her views at us at work. She was even convinced that vegetarianism and role-play games were against the Christian God. Did I bother confronting her? Did I heck - I'm crazy not stupid. Generally people avoided her . I used to work at asda, she was the greeter but got moved off the door because she kept trying to preach to everyone that came in. She was on the checkouts but got moved off there too because of the same thing (except when it was really busy and they had not choice but to let her back on). In the end, they just told her to put things back that had been left at the checkouts. Less chance for her to talk to anyone.

So was I scared of what she'd say to me? Nope, it's just that I didn't care enough about her opinion that I wanted to change it (and she has the most irritating voice on the planet and so wanted to minimise the chance of hearing it). I've found a lot of the zelous types are nutjobs that are generally avoided.

Luckily for us, secular society seems to agree. Look at the names that Christians get called - God Botherers, Bible Bashers, Jesus Freaks and I can't think of anymore. But personally I prefer being called a 'satan worshipper' and a 'baby kidnapper' or whatever the **** they call us.

I agree with Very in that we should know when to pick our battles and I've ripped new ****holes in people that have been cheeky enough to take the **** out of my beliefs but when it comes to these sorry nutjobs, I just can't be bothered with them.