One of the books I'm currently reading is 'The Sceptical Occultist' by Terry White. Last night, was the chapter on 'Demonic Possession' and it's kind of got me wondering.

First of all, it's made clear that the phenomenon of possession happens in all cultures, it's just the perception of what the possessing entity actually is that changes and this is depends on the culture and what religious beliefs are held within that culture. For example, in Japanese culture the entity is a fox god; in China and Laos, a serpent; in parts of Africa, a wild animal; in Vietnam an ox or tiger and so on. When cultural beliefs are overlaid by Jewish, Christian and Moslem theology, then the entity can to take on the form of a demon or of a damned soul. Here's my first question. As far as your personal beliefs go, do you believe in any kind of possession and what is the possessing entity?

The second point is that many cases coming to the attention of both psychiatrists and clergymen have connections with occult practices. There are different interpretations as to why. Obviously the clergy say that playing with spirits and getting involved in the occult opens a person up to possession. On the other hand the doctor might contend that by entering into 'magical' belief systems, the patient has taken the first steps along the road to mental illness. Here's the other question. Why do you think this correlation exists between possession and occult practise? Some may argue that 'possession syndrome' is a form of psychiatric illness; so that brings us back to the whole 'Paganism and mental health' question.

so...what d'ya think?

I'll only tackle the second question right now, as the first with the different cultures beliefs about possesion i know scant little about.
I beleive that possesion doesn't alays happen to those who are interested in the occult/ or paganism in general.
The Catholic church had quite a lot of patrons who were possessed who were practicing catholics. Whether these people were possessed or suffering from mental illness, is I feel a huge can o' worms. So even the churches stance doesn't quite defend its own behaviour, they don't quite correlate well.
But then a psychiatrist may only see possesion as a form of mental illness, but does that mean that everyone who claims/diagnosed with a mental disorder is possessed, or that no-one is ever possessed. Hard to prove, what aboput if someone were truely possessed, would a psychiatrist see this or only mental illness?
Sorry, I have only provided more questions. Not a single definitive point.

From what I can tell (and I'm only really talking about Christian possession here as there aren't any accounts given of non-Christian possesion). The possessed tend to display a fear of holy items, extreme hatred and violence towards the exorcist and they also display superhuman strength. They're pretty easy to explain if you ask me, people have been known to show superhuman strength in cases of extreme peril (perceived or otherwise). I think there was one account of a man managing to pick up a safe (that normally took several men to lift) and throw it over the side of a boat when it was sinking.

The ones that aren't so easy to explain would be the speaking in tongues and in the case of women who are considered to be possessed, there is usually a change in timbre of the voice. They sound more like men.

>>
But then a psychiatrist may only see possesion as a form of mental illness, but does that mean that everyone who claims/diagnosed with a mental disorder is possessed, or that no-one is ever possessed. Hard to prove, what aboput if someone were truely possessed, would a psychiatrist see this or only mental illness?


There is a case given in the book of a woman with multiple personality disorder (MPD), where another personality turned up but much to the confusion of the psychiatrist, the patient's other 'alters' (personalities) insisted that the new personality was not an alter and that he was a spirit and one that would not be cured by the 'fusion' technique (psychotherapeutic process used to integrate alters into a single personality). The 'spirit' claimed to have been attracted to one of the patient's other alters and that it could possess any man that had intercourse with the patient. These couplings were characterised by pinching after intercourse which the patient claimed never normally happened.

The psychiatrist spoke to the 'spirit' and it claimed to be the ghost of a 70 year old man that was shot in Louisiana. The situation went crazy, with the patient swapping personalities every 30 seconds before finally having extreme spasms as she screamed 'get out, get out of me!' and then another voice, a male voice (from inside her) announcing that he wasn't going to leave. The patient screamed for god to help her and then another alter took over announcing that 'he was gone'

Whether this was considered to be part of her psychosis or not isn't said but it's still an interesting case

I think I must have watched a documentry on MPD and I remember that the doctors said the condition is extremely rare, so much so, a few didn't even believe its a real disorder.

I don't really know what I believe in terms of possession, part of me thinks its possible and probably does happen, but then the cynic takes over and tells me not to be stupid.

As for the correlation between occult practices and poession/mental health, well I wonder how many of those incidents are actually people getting involved in dangerous cults and messing around with stuff and scaring the willies out of themselves, or simply media propaganda? Afterall, do you ever hear of Christainity and mental health problems being linked together, depite the numerous deaths and dodgy going ons with pseudo christian cults, and people warning of the dangers of getting involved in christainity? Nope!

Ask the average person what "occult" means to them, and they'll probably answer devil worship, satanism and bad bad stuff. I wonder too how many of those people who were/are apparently possessed and involved in "occult" practices were honest to goodness pagans? I think a lot of it, is just more propaganda to discredit paganism.

Well if you want to get picky 'occult' simply means 'hidden' and all forms of religious belief including Christianity is dealing with the occult.

As to possession, yep it can happen but its not always a nasty thing. I know of Christians that become hosts to the Holy Spirit of their god, and I myself have played host to the Lion spirit.

Kev

I agree - possession is certainly not seen as a nasty thing in Vodoun. Maybe some of the nice Vodoun practitioners on here could tell us a bit more about possession from this aspect?

There is a story in current events of a woman who planned to sacrifice her son. She's christian. The thread is called "Couple Planned to Sacrifice Children"

Surely the invocation of the Goddess in Drawing down the Moon is also a form of possession?

bb
Rhiannon

I think evocations are usually counted as a seperate thing. Similar; but different.
Possession usually has the conotation of it being against the will of the person. Invocation is usually opening yourself up to ...whatever.

I might be wrong on this but I think its still called possession in Vodoun even though it's a willing participants and I think it's considered an honour to be possessed by one of the Loa (I think it's Loa - I keep wanting to say orixas too but that just be me mixing up Candomble with Vodoun).

I'm not well up on Vodoun.

I'm not a wiccan(or indeed a Wiccan either ) and have never been involved in the Drawing down the moon ritual but I would be interested as to how much control the Priestess has during the time when 'possessed' compared to how much control a Vodoun Bokar (is that the name? I can't remember) has during a possession.

I would think that the drawing down the moon would be the diet coke of possessions - and would be more like 'channeling' rather than possession.

Of course I could be completely wrong but that's how it strikes me.

I would be interested to know what it's like to be possessed.

We actually use the term "being ridden" and the celebrant becomes the "horse" of the loa. (by the way, you're quite right; the orishas/orixas are indeed the spirits of Camdomble and Santeria, related paths to Vodou.)

I've never experienced a full possession - for that you generally have to be initiated. I have however experienced a form of low grade trance possession on several occasions when I've been serving the loa in front of my altars at home. It's difficult to describe, but you can often tell if the loa is with you because their personalities are all so different. You klnow if you've made contact.

I've done a services for Agwe, the sea loa, when I've literally felt waves buffeting me and started swaying with the pressure of what I could swear is water around me. I've done services for Brigitte, one of the rulers of the cemetery, where my entire body has gone numb like that of a corpse, but my mind has sharpened and become frighteningly clear. Brigitte is also the spirit of academia and learning.

Earlier in the year I took a course in samba drumming which happeend to be tauht by a candomble practitioner who was a child of Chango, the orisha of war. He taught us a drum pattern used to invoke Chango and you could literally feel the waves of divine energy pouring off him. Afterwards, the ferocious energy of Chango was still there and stayed with me the whole afternoon - I literally couldn't sit still for hours.

I don't know much about the Drawing Down the Moon ceremony but I'd love to hear if the gods are invoked in the same way as they are in Vodou and its related paths.

Is it true possession?
Is it a phsycological disturbance?
Is it possession relevent to culture?
Does the individual have a predisposition towards the paranormal?
Has the individual been affected by simple intelectual and personal interest in a particular subject matter, e.i. certain cultures and systems of belief?

The combinations of yes, no and maybe answers to these questions, along with the qualifications for those answers, are endless and the possible combinations and explanations equally endless.

Induced possession is possibly a little more straightforeward to understand and explain than involuntary possession, though the sceptics would say that phsco-suggestion and strength of belief might play a greater and clearer role.

With involuntary possession the debate over possible causes and legitimacy is far more complicated.

The majority of recorded possessions seem to be relevent to culture but not all.
How often do we hear of, for example, of a Shinto deity possessing a Muslim or a christian deity possessing a Buddhist? If it does happen maybe the cultural gap is such that "foreign deities" are simply not recognised and therefore remane un-named or mis-named.

We all hear plenty of examples of American Indian guides appearing in "irrelevent cultures". That is probably the one single largest deviation from the norm. Again, causality and legitimacy are equally debateable.

Some "possession" I'm sure is genuine.
Some "possession" I'm sure can be ascribed to "mental illness".
The problem is in the differentiation.
Phsycologists will be drawn to the more mundane conclusions.
People having strong spiritual convictions will be drawn towards "paranormal" explanations.

Some "possession" may even be genuine but misenterpreted.

How can we be completely objective when trying to differentiate between the phsycological and the paranormal?
I don't think that we can.
We're all far to complicated and individual.

Most of us are content that we really do see, feel and even converse with the deities as we recognise them. Some of us have familiars, guides and guardians. However, we can apply all of the above suggestions to our own beliefs and still not find a logical answer but this doesn't make our belief any less valid does it?

Unfortunately, spirituality generally is a subject that doesn't lend itself easily to logical analysis and proofs, faith being the objective word that does spring to mind.

I don't think that we can do any more than be totally honest with ourselves regarding our own beliefs, and open to the possibilities (all of them) with those of others.

It's a great area for debate but the combinations of possible causes and legitimacy's are vast.