Wicca vs wicca.
As we all know books today seem to teach that anyone can call themselves wiccan regardless of the fact that to be Wiccan you have to be coven trained and initated. Then you find yourself told in no uncertain terms by a fourteen year old high school priestess that you are wrong and that anyone can be wiccan

Your experience and (mental) maturity count for nothing, there seems to be no respect for the real Wiccans, no respect for fact that you had to train hard to understand the ways of Wicca, real Wicca.

But shouldn't there be a place for those who feel they are self iniated wiccans? I'm not talking about wannabe's here, they'll be gone when the next craze comes along next week. I'm talking about solitary wiccans who try to follow a path based on Trad Wicca, and play a part in todays magick and pagan scene, so should they have a recognised place then? Or should they call themselves something else, such as witch, since witches today can dedicate themselves to their path or God/dess without the need to call themselves wiccan or claim to be Wiccan?

Wicca or wicca - room for both?

I think yes...there should be a place for solitary wiccans. From what I know of wicca (and I admit this isn't enough) I don't see any need for a person to be initiated into a group, if they have have self-initiated. After all, initiation (in my mind) is dedicating yourself to your deities and to your path, and you don't need someone else to do that for you.

K X

To be honest, I don't know enough about Wicca to make a definate point, and I wouldn't want to offend any Wiccans by pretending I did.

However I would like to ask something/make one point.

I have a couple of Wicca books in my collection, including Cunninghams Guide for the Solitary Practitioner - and have never quite grasped the coven/solitary issue.

Are there any branches of Wicca that state you can be solitary, or do they all technically say you must be in a coven?

If you *have* to be in a covern, surely a solitary Wiccan is in fact not a Wiccan, but more someone who just tries to follor the Wiccan path as close as possible?

Or is that the entire point of the thread? If so, please disregard this post comepletely

In many ways, the question of "room for both?" has long been overtaken by events. As Weatherwitch points out, Wicca can be used to describe people who have spent decades in coven work, or people whose path is in some way influenced by published writings on the subject, or even - particularly in the USA - pretty much anyone who is Pagan. Ironically, some people who are Wiccan by the strictest definition no longer call themselves Wiccan in protest at the dilution of the term. But does this really matter?

As far as the initiatory (coven) craft is concerned, people who are involved, IMHE, tend not to discuss much to do with it openly and would pay little attention to how a stranger described themselves. If it mattered, they could always check to establish whether a connection to their own line existed.

As far as wider usage is concerned, perhaps this should be be viewed as a useful reminder that labels do not really tell you very much about another Pagan. If someone tells you they are a Wiccan - or a Druid, or a Shaman, or a Heathen, or anything else - I suppose it might give you a general impression of where they are coming from. But unless you take time to talk and get to know each other a bit, you won't really know very much about what that individual believes, or how they work. And if you did that, you might well find your initial impression to have been rather misleading. Perhaps that's no bad thing?

BB,

John Macintyre

. . . or we could get all pernickity and say that anyone who refers to themselves as a Wiccan probably isn't? (Wiccan supposedly being an adjective rather than a noun!)

bb
Rhiannon

A name to describe me and my beliefs, why?
If I call myself a Pumpkin - am I?
Call me what you will, what you think I should be,
I could be called 'Bumblebee'.

I practice Wiccan ways with all my might
Studying hard into the night
Practice with candles, elements, signs
But no Coven is around for me, not for miles

I am flesh, yet I am of the spirit in the woods
I give praise to my Goddess and God
Am I Wicca? Am I a Bumblebee?
I'll sit back and ponder 'what name best decribes me?'

lol, Misty x

Hi Rhiannon,

You wrote:
". . . or we could get all pernickity and say that anyone who refers to themselves as a Wiccan probably isn't? (Wiccan supposedly being an adjective rather than a noun!) "

Maybe that would be going a little too far . But I'd certainly agree that using Wiccan degrees etc outside of their appropriate context is rather naff!

BB,

John Macintyre

I am not, & have never been, Wiccan - I'm just your regular Witch, but I'm very much a solitary type by nature. Had I decided to choose a Wiccan Path, I still don't think I would have wanted to be a part of a Coven other than for teaching purposes & I think that most Covens (I'm guessing here, never having been a part of one) probably wouldn't want to take someone on to teach if they knew that the person had no intention of becoming a full member of that Coven.

I think there are most probably others who, like me, shy away from large groups (or, in some cases, even small groups!) & would prefer to practice their faith/follow their Path alone. Still, surely some of those people are attracted to all that Wicca has to offer? Would it be fair to turn them away saying "Well, you're not a team player so you can't be one of us"?. I think not.. I do, however, think that anyone who is attracted to a Wiccan Path shouls at least take the time to try & find someone who is willing to teach them some of the essentials of their Craft. I know this wouldn't always be possible, but it would surely do no harm to try?

Myself, I've never had a formal 'teacher' per se, but I count many in the number of folks who have helped me find my way & answered questions when I've needed to ask them. Not all these people are Pagan either, surprisingly eough! Either way, i will be eternally greatful to those who have passed on their wisdom to me & I only hope that, along my travels, I can help others in some little way, even if only by opening their eyes to something new ot getting them to question things.

There is a place for us all, we just all have to make the effort to be accomodating & welcoming whenever we can.

I've never subscribed to the degree system. Ok, you might think that this is the typical response of the solitary, however allow me to present my case milud!

Firstly, I can see the benefits of the initiatory system, among them a structured system of training and group support. Both things that the young solitary would have trouble with. However, a lot of newbies still have trouble finding a coven that is willing to consider their candidature in their area, then there's the question of trust, do they trust this already established group? After all, they're the newcomer, do they feel safe working with this group? Do they get on? The process of finding a coven is full of strife. Then you hear stories about in-coven squabbling, inter-coven rivalry etc etc.

In my case, when I was starting out in early 94, I think there wasn't the same openess as there is now (not that it's brilliant now, but most of you probably know what I mean, it's definately better). I didn't have access to the internet or a disposable income. So instead of worrying too much about being in a coven, I stayed solitary but worked hard. One thing I have noticed is that I seem to have become more able in stages, usually after spiritually/magickally testing experiences. So, I think that covenor or not, we are tested and go through various degrees of initiation. What I object to is being made to feel like I'm any less a Witch because I didn't undergo the traditional coven experience.

Wicca may have started off as an initiatory religion but please keep in mind that not everyone can follow that path. I can understand a dedicated covenor's annoyance at the 14year old newbie talking down to them, it's understandable that after years of work, not just magickally and spiritually but with interpersonal relationships in a coven and just generally making things work, you would feel annoyance. However, please don't tar us with the same brush

Elswyth

Hello! Yes I think there should be a place for the type of person you have just described because I pretty much fit that description.

If someone gets involved in this because they are so interested and focused, they shouldn't be excluded simply because they haven't been fortunate enough to find other like-minded people who share their beliefs.

I have never seen a coven and I don't think its very likely I ever will, let alone be able to join one!

I call myself a witch, and I call my path witchcraft. I can't call it Wicca, especially since I have had no training on the subject.

x Keira

As a Druid (well a Bard in a Druid order) I would regard someone as a fellow Druid if they had at least made some commitment (such as self-init.) and shared a reverence for the natural world. For me this means that I feel some kinship with Wiccans of either variety as well as people of other pagan traditions. One thing that strikes me as an outsider to the Wicca vs wicca debate is that if you discount the extremes of either position (the arrogant solitaries and the conservative traditionals) you have a bunch of people trying to do the same thing in slightly different ways. Do you (W/w)iccans think there may be some room for a middle way to draw the more promising wiccans into the world of Wicca? correspondance courses? open groups? wiccan reading groups?. The gentle hand of the experienced would no doubt be of great benefit to those who come to wicca through Cunningham et al.

I'm not proposing a Universal Church of Wicca, just a little more cooperation!

I have read a number of books on Wicca and thought I understood what was described within them. However when it was seen for the first time in the flesh, my first thoughts were " Well I never... Who would have thought of doing it like that?"

It can only be described as describing colour to a blind man who later undergoes eye surgery to cure the blindness. Can you imagine his surprise when he actually sees colour for the first time?
His words may be something like the following;" Well I never... Who would have thought Red was like that?"

Or put it another way...
If a book said "Climb from the bottom of the ladder to the top, speaking the mantra at each run of the ladder."
You could be excused for thinking the ladder was vertical against one of the walls.
How shocked would you be to see the ladder lain horizontal on the floor, and to then watch the person walk on their hands along each run of the ladder from bottom to top?

Does this explain to people that there is a big difference in reading a book on Wiccan Practice and being privileged to visit a Traditional Initiated Coven and see Wiccan Practice in the flesh?
I hope this helps poeple to understand.
Jax

Word of note: there is no ladder climbing in Wiccan covens. This is just a made up example.

Actually that really is an excellent way of making an example Jaxom, I like that

witches are not non-initiated wiccans. Witches are something different and in our opinion very seperate from wiccan, Following wiccan magical practices but not being initiated makes you an uninitiated wiccan not a witch. Witches are differently trained, draw amgic from a different source and do not worship gods as part of witchcraft.

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other word would smell as sweet."

many thanks for pointing that out Beirn ... saved me going off on one

Mel

depending on how you were trained I'd say an awful lot!

Mel

*nods*

I have to say I agree - I'd be pretty peeved if someone told me I was just a wiccan who hadn't been initiated yet. And most of the Wiccans I know would consider it fairly insulting as well

To my mind there is plenty of room for both wiccans (non-initiated) and Wiccans (initiated). The only time I would make an exception to this is when a non-initiated wiccan claims a certain 'degree' (as in High Priestess, 2nd Degree etc.). This I feel is insulting to those who have worked to attain those degrees. Say you're a $4!7 hot spell caster, a fanstastic herbalist or a top-notch hexer by all means (and don't be afraid to admit to what you're good at) - but don't claim a degree you haven't earned just because you think you deserve it.

I agree with that too; and with what OxonPagan wrote. She put it perfectly.

I've heard Wiccans refer to themselves as a witch which causes me confusion, but then again that's not that difficult. And frankly, that's the way I saw them.

Since I don't follow either the Wiccan path or Witchs as far as I know, I could use a little education.

Are witch's an offshoot of Wiccan, ones that don't believe in the three fold law or the reade or Gods as part of the worship as Beirn said? Do they dedicate themselves to a Goddess then but not Gods? Outside of hereditary witches, how does one become a witch?

http://www.brigids-haven.com/bos/beginner/wvsw.html

Might help!

Hmm the what's in a name chestnut
I think there is room for both types of wiccan but I don't think that someone who is not initiated should call themselves wiccan. Just because you've based your beliefs along similar lines doesn't mean that you should call yourself that. There are a lot of things that are learnt behind closed doors when you're an initiated wiccan and outsiders wont have this knowledge passed onto them. Consequently they wiccans with a small w haven't got thw hole picture IMHO.
To me it would be like me saying that I'm a doctor because I have an interest in healing and have made some remedies and read books on the subject.
I'm not saying that every witch has to be initiated but I am saying that there should be respect for titles that people have worked for.

P.S for any nice fit men out there I might as well be a Dr so if you could just pop your clothes off Dr Rowan will see you now

>>I'm not saying that every witch has to be initiated but I am saying that there should be respect for titles that people have worked for.


Now you see, I don't buy into that, for me, respect is to be earned, not given because of a title.

Excellent site Esk, thank you. Explains a lot.

You're welcome!