Full Version: Chamber Tombs
chamber tombs, in this case newgrange on the bru na boyne in ireland, there was a little debate going a while back on a different board thought it would be interesting to get some more ideas, there was an account of a stags head with antlers being found in newgrange just where the light of midwinter shines in and touchs it, the idea behind the discussion being over its representativity of rebirth in the tomb, the few bones being found being as secondary with the intent of ritual being the primary use, the male aspect being reborn later in the cycle after resating in the earth, ideas views , thoughts.
There are a lot of such chambered tombs (I like to think of them as womb spaces) in the British Isles. Almost all of them are aligned against significant solar events with most aligned on Midwinter sunrise (like Newgrange) of Midwinter sunset (like Maes Howe), though some are aligned to the Equinoxes.
As you say few bones were found in most which has led to the idea that maybe the bones of those who had died that year were placed there to receive the Midwinter light that poured into the womb space.
On Orkney every island has at least one such chambered tomb and on the larger islands there are lots. It is quite an experience simply to crawl into the smaller ones and remain in the little light that comes down the passage. For me spending time in such places became a real rebirth to pagan belief.
It is difficult for us to imagine now what it must have been like for our ancestors. Our mastery of light has led us to a peculiar enslavement where we no longer move with the seasons. We switch on the lights and go to and from work at the same time of day in Midwinter as we do in Midsummer even though our inner being tells us not to. We inflict a similar thing even on our plants forcing rasberries to fruit under artificial heat and light in December. (Rant over).
But for our ancestors Midwinter in Orkney meant there was only precious light from 9.30 to 3 - foodstuffs were scarce and maybe the days would not lengthen again. That miracle though was so strong that yes it could bring re-birth.
As you say few bones were found in most which has led to the idea that maybe the bones of those who had died that year were placed there to receive the Midwinter light that poured into the womb space.
On Orkney every island has at least one such chambered tomb and on the larger islands there are lots. It is quite an experience simply to crawl into the smaller ones and remain in the little light that comes down the passage. For me spending time in such places became a real rebirth to pagan belief.
It is difficult for us to imagine now what it must have been like for our ancestors. Our mastery of light has led us to a peculiar enslavement where we no longer move with the seasons. We switch on the lights and go to and from work at the same time of day in Midwinter as we do in Midsummer even though our inner being tells us not to. We inflict a similar thing even on our plants forcing rasberries to fruit under artificial heat and light in December. (Rant over).
But for our ancestors Midwinter in Orkney meant there was only precious light from 9.30 to 3 - foodstuffs were scarce and maybe the days would not lengthen again. That miracle though was so strong that yes it could bring re-birth.
i think that our ancesters had a much better understanding of the concepts of life and death that we have now.... our culture sterilises everything. the symbolism of the womb goes way back into the paleolithic too ... some bodies have been found buried in a foetal position painted with or buried with pots of red ochre.
i've been into a longbarrow .. well just inside - they don't let you go any farther!!
and it is a very strange experience, very much a case of entering the womb of earth itself.
just a few thoughts, they may not make sense - had a hard day at work
i've been into a longbarrow .. well just inside - they don't let you go any farther!!
and it is a very strange experience, very much a case of entering the womb of earth itself.just a few thoughts, they may not make sense - had a hard day at work
A few sites that might be of interest:
http://www.whitedragon.org.uk/articles/circles.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mjpowell/Cric...ow/MW_Sites.htm
http://www.whitedragon.org.uk/articles/circles.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mjpowell/Cric...ow/MW_Sites.htm
The bodies were originally left but then later generations came along and took a few bones from this one, and some from that one, with the odd result that can only really be interpreted as ritual use because a left leg bone can turn up in one burial place, the right one else where, the skull not found, but the rest of the bones found in yet another place. Our prehistoric mortuary and burial practice is really fascinating. I really do detest it when purely new age theories are bandied about without any evidence. But a huge amount of archaeology is suposition based on artefacts found, but at least there is a basis for the theory.
Weren't many barrows used as ossiaries rather than actual tombs.
As their usage extended over many generations and in some cases even changed usage or at least style of usage it's extremely difficult to pinpoint exact symbolisms at any given point in time. As with henge monuments, usage extended in some cases across such a huge time period that both usage and symbolism varies according to cultural evolution in time.
As their usage extended over many generations and in some cases even changed usage or at least style of usage it's extremely difficult to pinpoint exact symbolisms at any given point in time. As with henge monuments, usage extended in some cases across such a huge time period that both usage and symbolism varies according to cultural evolution in time.
QUOTE
i've been into a longbarrow .. well just inside - they don't let you go any farther!!
Apart from the stunning example of Newgrange, one of the most easily accessible intact long barrows is West Kennet nr. Avebury. About forty feet or so from entrance to furthest recess with several side compartments it gives a good impression of the earth womb feel to these places. Another addotional advantage to West Kennet barrow is that it is about half a mile from the road, across a field and doesn't have a dedicated car park so it tends to be fairly quiet at most times, I've never been there and found other people already present so you do get a chance to linger and get a feel for the place in solitude and silence.
I visited Barcloddiad y Gawres on Anglesey a few years ago (translates as The Giantess's Apronful) - you get the key from the post office up the road, and then you can spend as much time as you wish in there. Going in was very much an "entering the womb of the earth" experience, I could imagine it would be quite frightening by the light of a flaming torch, very daunting. It was very quiet, and very peaceful, and by the light of the little torch I'd taken (note to self, take a bigger one next time!) the carvings on the stones inside looked almost as though they were moving, the spirals turning like slow catherine wheels. Very atmospheric.
Wow, sounds fabulous Auntie Mint If I'm ever up that way I know where I'm heading
If I'm ever up that way I know where I'm heading
Dave and others,
There was a long period in which chambered tombs/passage graves were in use, yes.. and they do seem to me to be about community not individuals, though it's clear that even so, not everybody was put in them. There's been some discussion in the archaeology press about moving bones and indeed 'dancing with the ancestors'.
However:-
West Kennett longbarrow is a good place... it is attracting increasing numbers of people, though, and it's becoming quite unusual to not find somebody else there, or be disturbed by others, especially at a weekend. I have had opportunities to spend time in there for an hour or so, but not in the last two years (at least in the daytime).
And people will leave their stuff...
If you're up there again soon, please take a plastic bag for the dead tealights you'll meet... Unfortunately, other people seeing them lit and glowing, or even seeing them spent, think it's a good idea, and bring their own another time. On a recent visit I picked up 15 tealights, and I've seen more at other times. And the combination of candle-heat and the constant moisture through the barrow is devastating. Look at the big orthostat on the right in the end chamber, and find the cracks radiating from a (natural) hole in it - people put lit tea-lights there and the stone is being destroyed.
I was just there on solstice, just before sunset on the 22nd.
Seidkona
There was a long period in which chambered tombs/passage graves were in use, yes.. and they do seem to me to be about community not individuals, though it's clear that even so, not everybody was put in them. There's been some discussion in the archaeology press about moving bones and indeed 'dancing with the ancestors'.
However:-
QUOTE(Dave @ Dec 20 2004, 01:50 PM)
Apart from the stunning example of Newgrange, one of the most easily accessible intact long barrows is West Kennet nr. Avebury. About forty feet or so from entrance to furthest recess with several side compartments it gives a good impression of the earth womb feel to these places. Another addotional advantage to West Kennet barrow is that it is about half a mile from the road, across a field and doesn't have a dedicated car park so it tends to be fairly quiet at most times, I've never been there and found other people already present so you do get a chance to linger and get a feel for the place in solitude and silence.
West Kennett longbarrow is a good place... it is attracting increasing numbers of people, though, and it's becoming quite unusual to not find somebody else there, or be disturbed by others, especially at a weekend. I have had opportunities to spend time in there for an hour or so, but not in the last two years (at least in the daytime).
And people will leave their stuff...
If you're up there again soon, please take a plastic bag for the dead tealights you'll meet... Unfortunately, other people seeing them lit and glowing, or even seeing them spent, think it's a good idea, and bring their own another time. On a recent visit I picked up 15 tealights, and I've seen more at other times. And the combination of candle-heat and the constant moisture through the barrow is devastating. Look at the big orthostat on the right in the end chamber, and find the cracks radiating from a (natural) hole in it - people put lit tea-lights there and the stone is being destroyed.
I was just there on solstice, just before sunset on the 22nd.
Seidkona
I know of Barcloddiad du Gawres, too, AuntieMint. I haven't been inside, though there is a rather strange atmosphere around (the locked gates kept me out, but I've heard that there is a keyholder to get in touch with - I didn't know it was the post office though!)
Newgrange, despite the tourist cavalcade that inevitably comes with it was well worth the visit. It seems inevitable that the site was for ritual use rather than as a 'simple' burial - the nature of the structures themselves does suggest this, as does the archeological evidence of the bone fragments - many people's remains in rotation seems to be the conclusion drawn.
The site I would recommend would be Carrowkeel cemetery in Co. Sligo. In the day I was there there were no other visitors. It is high up on a craggy hilltop, with many tombs including some with lightboxes. They are very small and difficult to get in if that's what you're after, but it's a fascinating and evocative site that is well worth going to experience, and well out of the way of the tourist trail. It's a shame Carrowmore nearby attracts so many people in a way - an utterly different experience.
If anyone is interested in the passage tombs and ancient (and more modern) structures of Ireland, I'd like to recommend a book (must review it here!) - Guide to National and Historic Monuments of Ireland by Peter Harbison. The entries are somewhat sparse, but it is a good overview of Ireland's sites.
Newgrange, despite the tourist cavalcade that inevitably comes with it was well worth the visit. It seems inevitable that the site was for ritual use rather than as a 'simple' burial - the nature of the structures themselves does suggest this, as does the archeological evidence of the bone fragments - many people's remains in rotation seems to be the conclusion drawn.
The site I would recommend would be Carrowkeel cemetery in Co. Sligo. In the day I was there there were no other visitors. It is high up on a craggy hilltop, with many tombs including some with lightboxes. They are very small and difficult to get in if that's what you're after, but it's a fascinating and evocative site that is well worth going to experience, and well out of the way of the tourist trail. It's a shame Carrowmore nearby attracts so many people in a way - an utterly different experience.
If anyone is interested in the passage tombs and ancient (and more modern) structures of Ireland, I'd like to recommend a book (must review it here!) - Guide to National and Historic Monuments of Ireland by Peter Harbison. The entries are somewhat sparse, but it is a good overview of Ireland's sites.
Kent has a few although much ruined and not nearly as grand as places like West Kennet and others people have mentioned.
The ones that are definitly classed as tombs are Kits coty,little Kits coty,Coldrum,Chestnuts,Addington,Coffin stone,plus possibly the Whitehorse stone.
Have been to Coldrum and though very ruined its a lovely place to go to ,very secluded with a beautifull view.
Theres some earthern long barrows in kent,Jullieberies being one.
Personally think they were used for many different rites,burial being part of something bigger.
Some can be very peacefull places to go too.
http://www.bag.org.uk/jan99/medway1.htm
http://www.bag.org.uk/apr99/medway2.htm
http://www.nationaltrails.gov.uk/news_stor...?path=nd&ID=123
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/asb_mapsquare.php?sq=TQ
The ones that are definitly classed as tombs are Kits coty,little Kits coty,Coldrum,Chestnuts,Addington,Coffin stone,plus possibly the Whitehorse stone.
Have been to Coldrum and though very ruined its a lovely place to go to ,very secluded with a beautifull view.
Theres some earthern long barrows in kent,Jullieberies being one.
Personally think they were used for many different rites,burial being part of something bigger.
Some can be very peacefull places to go too.
http://www.bag.org.uk/jan99/medway1.htm
http://www.bag.org.uk/apr99/medway2.htm
http://www.nationaltrails.gov.uk/news_stor...?path=nd&ID=123
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/asb_mapsquare.php?sq=TQ
Hi, guess what another old one!
Ive been in a few Chamabered Tombs and seen a few sunrises in them! Usually on the wrong day! But you can often see how the Sun would make its mark at the right time! Im always amazed at how accurate they still are after all this time!
In Cornwall we have lots of 'Fogous' (foo gu s) they are a mystery to most Archaeologists are are usually described as 'underground food storage chambers' or similiar. There are a few in France to, but mainly they are only in Cornwall!
It is also interesting that these generally rather simple designed passage type chambers are nearly always aligned to the rising Summer Solstice sun, or the Winter Solstice setting sun.
It always seemed a lot of trouble to me just for storing food!
I beleive most Cornish Pagans see them as sort of Initiation / Rebirth Chambers, often there is a small chamber within that you must literally crawl through to gain access. Yet at the right time of year, these chambers (which are normally pitch black) are light up by the sunlight! Its impressive!
Has anyone else visited any of these? What did you think of them?
Ive been in a few Chamabered Tombs and seen a few sunrises in them! Usually on the wrong day! But you can often see how the Sun would make its mark at the right time! Im always amazed at how accurate they still are after all this time!
In Cornwall we have lots of 'Fogous' (foo gu s) they are a mystery to most Archaeologists are are usually described as 'underground food storage chambers' or similiar. There are a few in France to, but mainly they are only in Cornwall!
It is also interesting that these generally rather simple designed passage type chambers are nearly always aligned to the rising Summer Solstice sun, or the Winter Solstice setting sun.
It always seemed a lot of trouble to me just for storing food!
I beleive most Cornish Pagans see them as sort of Initiation / Rebirth Chambers, often there is a small chamber within that you must literally crawl through to gain access. Yet at the right time of year, these chambers (which are normally pitch black) are light up by the sunlight! Its impressive!
Has anyone else visited any of these? What did you think of them?
Don't mean to hijack the thread but I have spent the night in west kennet LB. I consider myself sane and would like others to hopefully consider me the same so i won't describe any experiences there. I would though be very interested to know if anybody has done the same either at WKLB or elsewhere. (Perhaps a PM would be an idea) Excuse the interruption
Never spent the night there, but was up there in the dark and saw earthlights, or wights, or whatever you would like to call them, was very intense!
QUOTE(madjon @ Dec 14 2004, 02:00 PM)
chamber tombs, .......... ideas views , thoughts.
I've pondered on this too for many years...
As Lady Fate would have it, over the last four years or so, I've been lucky enough to spend many months in Orkney. Would you believe it, ha... I've been in many of the chambered tombs there! *
) During these times, my meditations with the guardians of these tombs have repeatedly told me these were the tombs of the shamans! Now, logic agrees with this... well, my logic does! Being the eternal sceptic, I went looking for evidence! I came to the conclusion that's why so few bones were found in them... take the Tomb of the Eagles http://www.tomboftheeagles.co.uk/index.html 800 years in use and only 300+ individuals found... I've seen some of the skulls found there, many were deformed or diseased in some way, suggesting these individuals were seen as 'special' by the tribe! It's a well know fact that shamans were chosen for their, shall we say, uniqueness. What we would see in a different light these modern times, was viewed by ancient man as a sign that the person had been touched by the Gods and could communicate with them. Plus the T of E totem animal was thought to be the white tailed sea eagle as many of the interior of the tallons were found in the tomb. It's thought sky burials took place there, the eagles taking the soul upto the Gods, perhaps.
The Cuween chamber, had many dog skull in one corner, again a possible totem animal.
But so many of these tombs have been, er... made safe... Maes Howe, Cuween, Newgrange, T of E, the Camster Carns http://www.ancient-scotland.co.uk/site.php?a=171 and more, all have modern interventions on the fabric of their constructions. I believe this HAS to dissipate some of the ancient energies there!
However, I remember on one trip, I wanted nothing to do with these places!!!! Not like me at all! I saw them as disgusting, smelly places, full of rotting corpses and filth! Which, come to think of it, they must have been, when they were in use back in antiquity!!! The ancestors, telling me like it was, I suppose! I soon got over it tho'! And had the most amazing contacts there in!
The only structure I know of, that I've been in, that is as original, is the strange structure Mine Howe, http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/minehowe/ also on Orkney. This iron age structure has baffled archaeologists as to it's function. Both my partner and I have spent time in there, tho' he more than me. Our meditaions with the ancestors there were very clear, it WAS for ritual use, and for MEN ONLY!!!
I've no doubt that all chambered tombs were for rituals of one sort or another; death; ancestor worship; totem animals in some too, were also worshiped, or honoured, as I like to think of it.
Some factions now think sound played a part too. Dr Aarron Watson http://www.monumental.uk.com/index.htm has investigated this phenominon in the tombs and stone circles of Orkney http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/tombs/tombacoustics.htm and if my memory serves me, (correct me if I'm wrong) patterns in Newgrange seem to be of soundwaves! In the left-hand tomb at Camster, I had a VERY strange experience! Standing facing the large slab on the back wall of the tomb I heard a sound so loud and unusual I almost bolted out if the place!
It turned out to be the sound of my feet on the gravel on the floor, but magnified SO much it soundedd like a roar! I only had to whisper and it sounded like a shout! Neolithic stereo! This only took place on one small spot!!! My partner, totally bemused, had to be, literally, put on the spot until he could hear it too!!! So there we have it! Much to think on! But the sad truth is, no matter how much speculation, no matter how many archaeologists write papers and no matter how many people claim to be in touch with the ancestors, and until time travel becomes reality... the real, naked truth is lost in the distant mists of time... and thats what make it sooo mysterious!!
I love it! 
QUOTE(CornishShaman @ Apr 8 2008, 07:59 PM)
Hi, guess what another old one!
Ive been in a few Chamabered Tombs and seen a few sunrises in them! Usually on the wrong day! But you can often see how the Sun would make its mark at the right time! Im always amazed at how accurate they still are after all this time!
In Cornwall we have lots of 'Fogous' (foo gu s) they are a mystery to most Archaeologists are are usually described as 'underground food storage chambers' or similiar. There are a few in France to, but mainly they are only in Cornwall!
It is also interesting that these generally rather simple designed passage type chambers are nearly always aligned to the rising Summer Solstice sun, or the Winter Solstice setting sun.
It always seemed a lot of trouble to me just for storing food!
I beleive most Cornish Pagans see them as sort of Initiation / Rebirth Chambers, often there is a small chamber within that you must literally crawl through to gain access. Yet at the right time of year, these chambers (which are normally pitch black) are light up by the sunlight! Its impressive!
Has anyone else visited any of these? What did you think of them?
Ive been in a few Chamabered Tombs and seen a few sunrises in them! Usually on the wrong day! But you can often see how the Sun would make its mark at the right time! Im always amazed at how accurate they still are after all this time!
In Cornwall we have lots of 'Fogous' (foo gu s) they are a mystery to most Archaeologists are are usually described as 'underground food storage chambers' or similiar. There are a few in France to, but mainly they are only in Cornwall!
It is also interesting that these generally rather simple designed passage type chambers are nearly always aligned to the rising Summer Solstice sun, or the Winter Solstice setting sun.
It always seemed a lot of trouble to me just for storing food!
I beleive most Cornish Pagans see them as sort of Initiation / Rebirth Chambers, often there is a small chamber within that you must literally crawl through to gain access. Yet at the right time of year, these chambers (which are normally pitch black) are light up by the sunlight! Its impressive!
Has anyone else visited any of these? What did you think of them?
I've just come back from a holiday in Cornwall and spent some time wondering around looking at some 'fogous'.
I went to Carn Euny first and was quite impressed with it-the guidebook does concede that they may have had some ritual function especially as the Carn Euny one has a round chamber attached. Very interesting place
Hi Flaxen, Yes the Bee Hive Hut as they call it, is an interesting addition to the Carn Euny Fogou, its certainly considerably bigger than most of the other side chambers, normally there is usually just a small chamber of the side that you usually have to crawl in and out of, though there are a few bigger ones! Apparaently the hut was the original build with a small passage off of it, the main tunnel was added about a century later! Theres another good one at Halligey (Mawgan in Meneage) near the Goon Hilly Dishes towards the Lizard if you get the chance! Time Team once excavated the Boleigh Fogou on the road to St Buryan. They were looking for additional underground structures, but didnt find any.
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