Something that's strangely not occured to me before. Or not very much. Having started again as it were, and not done any magic for over two years, I have been visiting and posting on various sceptical sites. Today my children go off on holiday thousands of miles away and of course I think about a protection spell for them....but when I came to it I found that my sceptical outlook has affected me. There's so much silliness that how do I know that I'm not being silly too?

Okay, I managed to do a protection. I focussed and tried to do it as I used to. But part of me, I feel, is now saying; "It's nonsense. What will happen will happen and you can't change it."

Deep territory, this; does magic work even if one doubts? Does doubt or belief effect magic in any way? If magic is a natural force like gravity you would expect it to be independent of our belief.

Hmmm, I think it is though, independant of us. Anyone can perform magic, often without noticing even and many would scoff at the idea that what they'd achieved was anything but coincidence. Never the less, magic it is. I think of it like electicity, you don't have to be an electrician to rewire a plug, but if you want to go that bit further and really acheive something impressive, it helps to know what you're doing. I like to doubt everything, it makes you look closer at why you beleive what you beleive and helps you strip of the worst of the fluff.

I'm starting to form the opinion that magick doesn't just come from spells and rituals. If you want protection for someone close then that strong desire is translated into a magickal action. Same applies to a strong desire for anything. So in your case it would be unecessary to do a spell.

Spells are useful ways of focussing your mind on an outcome but are simply a means to an end. They are tools to raise the energy to the level of a strong desire.

All IMHO of course

I'll admit right here that I don't practice much magic - so my opinion isn't actually qualified by much. I've always thought that if magic did really exist then it had to be something that everyone could do - a natural mechanism rather than a gift, or something that only happened if you believed in it.

I'm more than a bit of a sceptic when it comes to relying on faith alone, so I think if you try to perform magic with an open mind then it will work. If you are staunchly against it then I wonder if you might cancel out your spell - if only by your own refusal to believe in your results and not discount them. I wonder if magic has more punch behind it if you are confident in your abilities?

From personal experiance the two workings that I have done which would have a specific outcome have happened. I have done others but they were more for promoting learning and other unmeasureable effects. Whether or not the two specific outcomes would have occured anyway is a matter of opinion however I am convinced enough to experiment further. I didn't go into it already convinced in my abilities or in the existance of magic.

Spirited

To me, magick is about causing coincidences to happen. There has even been scientific studies about this (although not treating it as magick). I remember an article in NewScientist, a good few years ago, talking about football players being able to influence probability by being in the right place at the right time, and doing the right thing.

To me, that's magick - influencing probability.

As a neat segue from probability, I've just been reading some stuff on Chaos Magick, and that doesn't seem to need the belief to work (for a quick primer, download and read "Oven Ready Chaos" off Phil Hine's site - it's a free .pdf file). You actually need to forget the intent of your "spell" for it to work!

To summarize, before I go rambling off into the sunset, it all depends on the system you're using. Then again, if you believe enough that something is going to happen, usually, it will happen. Psychologists call it a "self-fulfilling prophecy".

T

I think that magick may still work even if you have doubts but if you have doubts about its effectivness then you will be setting up mental barriers that are ineveitably going to interfere with the it. Magick may be a natural force but it is up to you to shape and focus it. That is where belief comes in, you must have a receptive and confident mindstate - you set yourself up for failure otherwise. IMO you can block your own working even unintentionally.

The 'chaos magic' stuff doesnt sit well with me. For me it is the shaping of energy and the focus of intent that makes a spell work! In the moment immediatly after i have cast i focus on something else completely so as not to draw the energy back to me in any way but rather to let it go to its purpose. In general i try not to think too much about a working after i have done it for the same reason.

To me it's like any "faith" system. If you have faith and a belief that it will work, then it will. You will see results and relate it to the magic you performed whether or not its just coincidence. Likewise, if you don't really believe in what you are doing, if it doesn't work you can say - ahhh it's because I didn't do this right or not.

I am not belittling magic in any sense of the word, it has worked for me on several occasions, whether it is because I really wanted it to work and so anything that happened relating to the particular spell I cast was because of the spell, or just fate/coincidence - it certainly helps me

Sorry if it doesn't make much sense (i've had a hard day at work and the brain has seized up )

Blessings


Welshwytch

Keep your mouth closed.
Guard your senses.
Temper your sharpness.
Simplify your problems.
Mask your brightness.
Be at one with the dust of the earth.
This is primal union.

Tao Te Ching vs 56

But there's protection and there's protection. Not wishing to panic poor Welshbamboo here, but an example is that something untoward happens, the protection can be so that the worst is helped mentally. In the face of fear, feeling mentally positive can get you through, mental strength.

Power lies in many ways but in wishing to keep your loved ones from harm lies the deepest, strongest most premevial (sp!) power there is

To me, that's magick - influencing probability.

I think I agree with this too. Often magical/spiritual healing techniques are dismissed as giving the placebo effect. What is the placebo effect? People getting better despite not being given known medicines? Isn't that what we are aiming for, the power of positive thinking? I think its about nudging the probability of things our way.

I think that personal power is gained by not needing things to be a certain way to succeed but tackling challanges as they come and riding the waves of oppertunity. I also think that personal power has stronger and more far-reaching effects than changing circumstance.

Spirited

Personally I think that your protection would work, regardless of if you have alittle doubt.

To me it is not that you have made a spell, and are not sure if it will work, so it won't work. It is more that you *want* it to work. Whether you truly think it will work or not, whilst it may have an effect, I don't think it would stop it happening.

I always believe it is intent more than belief - as people have mentioned many make spells without realising, simply because they want something so much, and see themselves with it.

It is late - so I apologise if that didn't make sense!

I would think that it would depend on if you were doubting whilst doing the protection - if you're thinking "I want them to be protected, but this is stupid, there's no way it will work" - then I think it's pretty likely that it wouldn't work.
But if you did the protection, then thought afterwards, "That was a bit silly, what's going to happen will happen anyway" then I think it would still work.

Heron feather,

'Why can it not also be an act of magic to simply let go and say that what will be will be? '

Your Taoism is showing.

I think my perspective on this is that it can't hurt to try with magic. The thing about beliefs is that there is no real concrete evidence for any of them. Any 'proofs' that people find are subjective, are based on what they are prepared to accept as proofs.

People have been using magic for a very long time. Much of that magic had a basis in science that was not understood at the time. I like to think there is still much that we do not understand now, things we label as magic, that will become scientific 'fact' at some point in the future.

BB

Mike

Without going outside, you may know the whole world.
Without looking through the window, you may see the ways of heaven.
The farther you go, the less you know.

Thus the sage knows without travelling;
He sees without looking;
He works without doing.

Tao Te Ching vs 47

In my opinion there is no magic(k) without belief.

I believe that magic(k) only works for me, because I believe in it. Magick is the manipulation of forces in the world, by the strength of mind. I know that sounds really "fluffy" but I can't see any other way it works.
Without belief there is no strength of mind, and so the magick cannot (will not?) work.

I don't think I've explained myself well enough, I'll have another think and post again....

KX

Yes. My teaqcher always said that we should be careful not to dwell on negative aspects and thoughts becaue we might draw them to us.

And at the time of doing the protection I focussed and left no room for thoughs of doubt. Perhaps its about the mental focus or state of mind while doing magic, which would allow is to have doubts in our usual working day consciousness. Maybe its difficult to keep a 24/7 ever on-duty `magical mind'.

Thanks for the replies.

Do you need to believe in order to work magic? You certainly need to believe in something I think. To me, magic is all in the mind, so to use your example I believe that if you work a protection spell what it is doing is putting your mind at ease. I don't believe that it alters actual events. So, if you don't believe in what you are saying then you won't even get that reassurance in your mind.

My own point of view on this would be to say that, yes, magick does require belief - belief in your SELF & your OWN ABILITIES. If you believe that you have the ability to cause change, even in a very insignificant way, then you can. It just requires that your focus your intent & your belief & away you go. I know for a fact that when I've lost confidence in my own abilities, my casting has gone all to pot & it can become a vicious circle of self-perpetuating failure. once I got my confidence back, things fell back into place & there were no problems at all. In the end, if you believe you can do something, then you can (just look at children - if nobody tells them they can't accomplish something, then they don't even think about it & they can accomplish ANYTHING!). In the long run, a positive attitude & a healthy dose of self-confidence can take you all the way.

I would agree with what esk said but put it slightly differently. Peoples wants and expectations are often projected from them, how many people here have been in an event where it almost seems like the universe turns itself around to help you get what you want/need. And that's without using ritual. I myself started to have serious doubts when I started looking at philosophy of different cultures beliefs and ways of doing magic, more doubts in what I did started to appear.
I think that if a person doubts they may have difficulty in projecting their will onto reality on que. The subconcious parts that I mentioned will still happen but they won't realise it. I don't think that they will bvecome "immune" to magic or to the influence of others, but will only weaken their own souls ability to warp reality.

My understanding of magic is that it is using natual energies and the projection of your self--your will power-- and that being the case, I should think that a belief is very important. A belief in yourself and your power of the will. Use of an Intent. To me, I compare it to mind over matter. There are some who have the ability to move things with the power of the mind. Effecting a specific desire, i.e. you want a something to move. It's the same with magic.

For protection, not just from physical harm but I've used it for a friend's daughter suffering from emotional problems brought on by an emotionally abusive boyfriend. I visulized her surrounded in white light with sharp pointy things facing out. It worked because she built up enough confidence in herself to break up with him and is now in counseling. It took me about a half hour and found myself very fatigued afterwards for some reason. I didn't think I was concentrating that hard. But then again, it was always hard for me to visulize.

Check out Phil Hine's free e-book Oven Ready Chaos - there's a chapter entitled "Belief - A Key to Magick" which is particularly interesting.

As whichever form of magic we perform, if we assume it to be successful - or potentially successful - requires a 'belief system' to initiate it (why would you do anything you don't believe would work?) - then yes, belief is key