Hi guys, a friend asked me recently if she would get in trouble carrying an athame too and from rituals if she got stopped by the police and searched for any reason?

I really odn't know the answer, I'd assume it would be classed as concealing a dangerous weapon, although queenie has suggested if it was in a box or something that would be ok? Anyone know the answer?

I have emailed my brother whose a policeman to ask him but wondering if anyone on here has any ideas?

Tricky one, I think it depends on whether you're friends athame has an edge or not. I know they're not supposed to but some do. I know you can get into all sorts of bother carrying swords around, boxed or not if you run into a bobby with nothing better to do you can be in shtook. We can't claim cultural weapon that much I do know but if it's boxed up and in a bag then one, no one will know it's there and two, if she does get stopped and searched they can't claim she looked like she was going to use it can they?

I think it would have to be a locked box at that. I know some one who shoots competitively and he has to carry guns in one locked box...ammo in another locked box as well as licenses.

It is an offence to carry an offensive weapon in a public place without 'Lawful Authority' or 'Reasonable Excuse'.

It is a defence against a charge of offensive weapon to show you have it for religious reasons, but some common sense needs to be applied, don't wave it around, and be prepared to prove it is an athame, and it is for religious purposes, wearing a lot of silver jewelry and black clothing may help I suppose .

Carrying a concealed weapon may be an offence in USA but not in the UK.

dav

who thinks he could quote the Havamal as justification that he can carry a spear, but it not going to risk it.

You need to carry it so that it is not accessible. If it's clear that you could just draw it out and use it, the police will throw a wobbler, and rightly so, however innocent your intentions.

Keep it well wrapped up or in a box, right at the bottom of a bag or something.

Here's what the British Knife Collectors Guild have to say - http://www.bkcg.co.uk/guide/law.html

Knowing a number of people who regularly carry swords, etc, if the item is reasonabley wrapped so that it is not easily or immediately drawable then the police have no cause to stop you even if it is a big sword, if you are dressed in your ritual clothing and openly wearing the athame/sword if it is obviously tied off so that it cannot be drawn then this is generally considered ok by police as long as the ritual dress is looks as though the sword/athame belongs i.e. robes or some such, certainly the Metropolitian, Thames Valley, City of London and British Transport police forces as I have talked to representatives of all of them about this, it is preferable if the blade is blunt as well.

Queenie, if you a going to carry the sword/athame wrapped you do not need it to be a locked box, just make sure that is does not look blatantly like sword or athame and it is wrapped so that it is not easily drawn, the rules regards transporting firearms are much tighter

The general rule of thumb is that if you use a bit of common sense and are not waving it about the police will leave you alone.

Storm Raven

so what is the law if you've just bought a new knife block for the kitchen?

Or alternately Wear a kilt and stick it in your sock, or a turban and cite the 5 ks

The best bet is probably to keep it out of sight and not act like a prat.

Kev

Well, you'd have the knives still in their boxes and wrappings (usually plastic ties fixed to the cardboard backing that can only be cut with scissors), along with till receipts and the store's logo'd carrier bag.

We did this just before Yule, bought four new and very sharp chef's quality knives plus storage block.

At the end of the day it's all about appropriateness - just as the BKCG's article says.

But...what if the Scissors are inside the packaging!

Then you have to use your boline

This is what my brother (the policeman) said:

"It appears that an Athame is a ritual dagger, the one I saw on the internet appears to be a fixed bladed knife with a double cutting edge.
The answer to your question, if the above is correct is:- It all depends on the intent of the person carrying the knife.

There are two possible offences, 1) possession of an offensive weapon and 2) possession of a pointed or bladed weapon in a public place.
Offensive weapon is a weapon made or adapted to cause injury ie a dagger or knife or even a bottle smashed to produce a stabbing implement. A pointed or bladed weapon could be something as simple as pen used to stab someone. This is why your question is hard because it always depends on the intent of use. ie carrying a pen to write is lawful carrying it to injure is not!!
Both offences are arrestable BUT there is a defence. If the weapon is part of a national dress or for any other lawful reason.
So your friend MAY get get arrested if she was stopped and searched by a police office. She would have to prove that as above she was on route to a meeting and that the weapon was required as ritual dress for a lawful and/or religious meeting. If the meeting involved an illegal use for the weapon i.e slaughtering chickens (offence of cruelty to animals) then I suspect that the person would also commit the offence of offensive weapon as well as the cruelty offence but as I'm sure your friend is not a chicken killer and just uses the knife for cutting spirit lines and other non solids. I suspect she could use the defence. (Don't forget arrest and prosecution are two separate things. Your friend COULD be arrested on suspicion of the offense but not prosecuted at court because of the defence as mentioned). Hope that makes sense."

Well, I've got a 'voluntary license', issued by a religious (pagan) order. Basically, it gives name & address, and a bit of blurb about what the bladed/sharp instrument is to be used for (in pursuance of religious practises). IT states that the 'item' is part of my religious/ceremonial dress (meaning I must be robed appropriately to also carry the knife)

Not sure as to the exact legal isdsdue about it, but as far as I can tell, the license shows the police that I've got a reason to be carrying the weapon in public, and that I'm not using it for any "nefarious" purposes.

A similar system is utilised by my friend's martial arts class - they all have a voluntary license issued by one of the large martial arts organisations. These are people who use the katana, for instance (and they're sharp); my mate regularly carries them to his club, and hasn't had any problems.

xF,

...Nick

Its not that I am doubting, but what pagan order would this be from?

np - tbh, I don't think that it matters which organisation it's from - as long as you've got one. Just to dive into the legality of it for a second:-


Relevant act is the Offensive Weapons Act (1996)

"(k) an offence under section 1(1) of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 (prohibition of the carrying of offensive weapons without lawful authority or reasonable excuse);



So - I've got a bladed/pointed item, for religious purposes, which is backed up (key word above: prove) by my religious group/order/organisation/what-have-you, in the form of this voluntary license (for those handy times when the "guy in charge" isn't around to answer the nice policeman's queries).

The "order/organisation" I'm a member of is a group in the BCTW. I don't know which group "validates" the license, though. Technically, the size doesn't matter - any religous group can issue them (so as I once got UCL status, for a joke, I could issue them as well). Ifg you're in a coven, your HP/S can issue them. It's just that, as with many things in life, size *does* matter

The legal status of this method has been backed up a number of times - with martial arts practicioners, mainly, although of course there's 'King Arthur Uther Pendragon', of the Loyal Arthurian Warband, SODS LAW et al (of course!), and my own personal "guy in charge" was arrested last year & subsequently released without charge after possessing an "offensive weapon" (two, actually!) in public.

xF,

...Nick

I think he was actually asking which pagan order gave you the "license".

I know - I was pointing out that it isn't important. (And note that it *is* a voluntary license - which means there is no legal requirement to carry one... it just makes the inevitgable explanations, with a lesser-known faith such as paganism, slightly easier.)

xF,

...Nick

LOL, the point isn't whether the license is voluntary, necessary or whatever, just curious which pagan society gave you the license.

*shrug* Well, if you're really curious... . The order is a small group of covens(or "cuveens" as he puts it), mainly Yorkshire-based, under the name "Milesian order of Clanna Gadelus" - you'll find a little bit of blurb on WitchVox.

Curiosity satisfied?

xF,

...Nick

(edit: in case you were wondering, you need to be a member of one of the covens to get a license from them).

Thank you kind sir! LOL

We had exactly the same problems carrying bokken, nunchaku, and sai to and from martial arts classes.

We had a voluntary licence issued by the British Karate Association.
Most good martial arts equipment shops won't sell tradditional weapons unless you can show them such a licence along with your Affiliate Membership Licence to a recognised organisation.

Apart from that it was a general rule that they must never be shown in public and that during travel to and from classes they must be in a sturdy bag or case inside a holdall or kitbag.

The funniest scenario was on a club trip to train with a French club and hold a Kumite with them at the end of the weekend. We used rubber knives for knife defence training purposes and one of these was spotted going through Calais customs. None of us spoke very good French, the owner of the rubber knife spoke no French, the French customs guys were obviously having a bad day and the whole situation broke down into a pythonesque farce. The rubber knife owner rejoined us at our destination 24 hrs. later. We were to busy laughing to sympathise.

It might not be quite so easy to explain a ten inch Athame in that situation.

Incidentally, just to avoid any mistakes,
the first rule of knife defence is:
"if you can run away; run away"

maybe not. --- still, being Pagan, our "working space" will in general be outside (although not in a really public place)... as far as I can tell from the law, though, you ARE allowed to have them in a "public" place (except a school, unless for educational purposes), as long as you can show a good reason to (eg. dressed in ceremonial regalia, (including weapon - same as a sikh/scot) for purposes of representation (say - at a law court, "Interfaith" gathering, that sort of thing
(Note that I'm not a lawyer, so don't take this as fact - just one interpretation . I could very well be wrong, lol).



Too true, lol!

xF,

...Nick

I think Nick's guy is Case dropped over druid's sword

There are three defences in British Law - tools of the trade, national dress and religious reasons. As has been said, don't flaunt it, don't take it into Wilkinson's (see link) and make sure it's not easily drawable.

King Arthur has letters from a couple of constabularies giving him permission to transport his sword, and the above case was dropped partly because of this, and partly because he set precedent by winning his back from the Metropolitan Police. The CPS at Portsmouth tried to say that a sword is offensive per se, but as Arthur had Excalibur in Court and is allowed by law to swear on it instead of the Bible or affirmation, their argument fell down somewhat!