I'm curious, most of us believe in lots of other Gods and Goddess, so I wonder do we believe the Christain God exists?

I think he probably does, but he's the stuff fantasy books are made out of, you know there's always one God that wants dominion over the world.... interestingly, that God is usually evil beyond belief... so prehaps that's what the Christian God is like, not necessarily evil, but the one who wants dominion, perhaps because he's managed to secure himself lots of worshippers he figures why not convert the rest of us if possible? Ego a bit big and all that....

What you think?

The Lex Luther of the deities!

Actually Very, that's how I see him as well, like you do: another god from another pantheon, only more demanding and petulant and like a spoiled brat if he doesn't get his own way...

LOL I do like that very funny!
I have a very good friend who is christain, I really must put that to her! hehehehehe. We have a good time taking the piss out of each other's beliefs..lol probably a good thing we only talk about twice a year...although when we manage to catch each other in (she's travels all over thew orld for her work) we talk for hours.

I don't think you can talk about "the Christian God" as though there is one. Different groups have such different ideas of what God is, from an Old Testament patriarch (Jehovah's witnesses) through to one who allows people free will to learn for themselves (Quakers). Some people equate "God" with "Allah" (just another name for the same thing).

I think the thing that is generally missing from the Christian concept of God is the female side. It makes sense that male and female principles are co-creating. The female principle has been downgraded in the popular imagination to "mother of God" rather than "Goddess". I believe there are evolutionary reasons for this, and it's not a reason to blame Christians or accuse them of distorting the truth.

To me,just another god from another beleif system.
Apologies for spelling.

I see him as a deity, sure, but I see the 'christian' god as being their take on the 'jewish' god. He is very much a petulant little child with some self esteem issues, but is that simply how they've portrayed him?

Have the followers who've interpreted jahweh's word managed to mutate it to convey their own insecurities? Did they make their god come across as being hell-bent on world domination because that was what they wanted themselves?

Well, my answer tonight might not be my answer next week, but at the moment I think I just kind of see it as a different way of relating to the divine...I think he exists as much as any other god or goddess exists...but whether any of them actually exist or whether they are all just a way for us to connect with the life force or whatever...I don't know.

Did any of that make sense to anyone?

Pebble - YES - that was exactly along the lines of what I was going to say.

However, just to contradict myself, I do not believe that the Christian God exists in the way he is described in the bible. I do not see ANY God as an all caring, all sharing, built the world for you, going to punish you forever should you not follow my path, long beard, white cloak wearing individual. That persona is purely a fictional method of controlling the masses.

Whether there is some form of spirit up there who Christians correctly direct their faith at and answers to 'Our Father who art in Heaven' - well that remains to be seen. Like all of our Gods/Goddesses.

Pebble I liked your point about 'connecting with the life force'. I have to say, I think that religion only exists because of our need as human beings to connect with the force that keeps us all here and by creating God like figures of any notion we find it all easier to absorb. At the end of the day man created religion, but what created man?

Too good for the snug!

As I'm saying in Chat right now, betcha the god in question is Loki, sneaky little sod winding everyone up with a self contradictory religion. hey you lot, do as your told or it's eternal suffering for you! Oh sorry I meant, love your fellow man. Oh, no sorry again, love your fellow man as long as he believes what you do.....

Yeah, Loki!

Hehe, yea Esk, that must be it

Hehehe and as I said in chat Esk, I'd love to have a debate about this with a xtain, they say I'm hoodwinked by the devil, and I'd say they are hoodwinked by loki! hehehehehehe

Never met him (not for want of trying) but I accept that he exists. Its just that I feel that he isn't exactly what the Bible makes him out to be. I suspect that there are either of 2 posiblities

1 - he is a single god that wants people to think he is the only god (a god with an attention seeking psychosis perhaps?)

Incidently I can see the Jewish, Christian and Muslim gods as one and the same after all its quite posible for a god to change over time, and its not as if he pops into church everyweek to remind people who he really is (should never depend on humans to 'keep the faith')

2 - he is the blending of a pantheon of gods that have gotten so fed up with the way they are portrayed as a single being that they have given up trying to sort it out.

Maybe their god is actually a commititee

That's the one.

Yahweh, Jehovah and Allah....Jewish, christian and muslim....I kind of lump them together.

If he does exist then I find it very hard to believe that he is the god that those groups seem to define him as.

All of them represent him as being the only true god, omniscient, omnipotent, jealous and vengefull.

If he does exist then I'm sure that the other gods from all of the other world religions would have severely kicked his arse by now.

I believe he exists, but i think he should shoot his PR man.

I've never really not believed he exists because i believe all gods/goddess' exist. Buddah, kali, Yhi, Cernunnos, Baron Samedi etc..

I don't believe that gods/Goddess' are all powerful and all knowing, and I think its the followers who give them a bad name. Including (especially) our mates the Xtains.

I Really think the Xtain god should rain in his little children before the get spanked. Their really starting to p*** people off. Look at the Jerry Springer opera fiasco.

Has anyone else noticed that somethings got the Xtains knickers in a twist? (its the End Of The World, again) They've become even more vocal about us being bad. Or maybe i've just not been paying attention?

NC

I believe that its not a question of whether he exists or not, but rather the symbolism that is attached to him...

the Christians believe he exists, just as strongly as we believe that there is a God and Goddess....all the peoples of the world have a right to worship like they want, and worship who they want. Nobody can say that their religion is better/worse than that of the next guy...

One of my teachers, Leo Rutherford, suggests that it's a meaningless question to ask "Do you believe in God?" because what is "God" if not "life force", and life force is not something you believe in, it's part of what you are.

That argument only works however if you view god in that way.
If god is viewed as deity with an individual personality the idea tends to fall a part a little.

The point about the Xian God is that he is supposed to be ubiquitous and omniscient, and something more than all the individual gods and goddesses that other people worship. This, to me at least, makes him more of a force field than an old man on a throne.

I don't personally believe in the xtian god, but if you do, do you also believe in the devil?
Or is the devil just another manifestation of god to put the fear of hell in his followers?

A damned fine point.
I guess anyone that does accept the existence of the christian god in their terms is pretty much obliged to also accept the existence of Satan in similar terms.
If the christian god does exist in those terms however then the christians hopefully are misrepresenting him. If they're misrepresenting their god then I would say that they're also misrepresenting their devil too.
We've already had some interesting topics on the nature of good and evil.

I don't necessarily believe in Satan as a scary beast with horns and the father (so to speak) of evil. But I do believe there is a negative force, although maybe force isn't the best term.

Does evil exist? Well yeah I think so, we see so much evil in the world, whether its manifest through an illness or just sheer badness, but as I do believe in balance there must be something that balances out postive forces!

yeh its called nature, too many people on the earth so nature does something about it. as terrible as it is and as much pain as it causes it is still nature balancing it's self. man made disasters are another matter, but could still be viewd as something that was 'meant' to be.

that always gets me, nature isnt like that, we are very small when nature is concerned nature doesnt do things out of spite, no more more than herds of charging wilderbeastys are really trying to kill ants in the grass, it just happens.
we have been here for a bloody long time, now and then nature may think seem like its biting back, but its not.
i think if nature, or god or the goddess wanted to get us, they would have done it by now, you would have people getting struck by lightning when they least expect it shopping in tescos........em there a thought.

Works for me, Very!

Dryad

ohhh he wont like that..prepare to be smitededededed

I s'pose we all make our own realities ...so yeah he does exist

I agree with Stormy on that one.
Nature doesn't have a plan.
It works to certain rules and creats it's own environmental balance, but with regards to seismic events and population centres; that's pure coincidence.
Such events may act as a form of population control but there is certainly no intent or plan for that to be the case.
It just happens.
Coincidence.
That's life.

The christian god (or the god now thought to be christian) was originally a part of a pantheon (cant remember which, sorry) and had a female consort (again, name forgotten, google is your friend) and other related gods(esses).
A monotheistic sect which worshipped only Yahweh (jehovah) eventually became the dominating power and thus judaism dominated the area.

Sorry, cant be bothered to find references other than my own memory, if you are interested then google for it.

Someone been tiring you out Deebs?

Wow...I can't be sure, but I think that might be brilliant! That might be a good thing to say to Xtians if they didn't start yelling before you could explain it.

Does he mean our beliefs are part of who we are? (because they are, that's part of why so many people are afraid to part with belief systems they grew up with)
A "life force" instead of a God sounds like something atheists believe...correct?

If you don't believe there's a consciousness or a "life force", can it still be part what made you? I'm confuzzled.

Wasn't Yahweh part of the Elohim(sp)?

is there a xtain god?
is there are pagan gods?

to an xtain, there is an xtain god, but to a pagan there isnt or not in the way they see them.
to a pagan there maybe pagan gods, ok these are not always defined in the same way, but we believe in them what ever they are to us.
to the xtain, what we believe in isnt what they believe in.

what am i saying (sod knows)
to that person it is real and they see it how they see it.

im not going to say, well your god doesnt exist because im not like that.
it doesnt make me any less of a pagan to think that way.
because deep down most deitys through the ages are basically the same, its just man decided to change aspects of them to suit themselves.

this topic is a bit weird, its a bit like asking an xtain, do they believe in pagan gods, in which the answer would be no.
so its a bit of a bizzare question really.

Yes I believe that the God of the Christians (and their devil) exists. For me it is like knowing the Hungarian language exists. It is useful for the Hungarians, but has no use or impact on me or the way I live my life.

As for him being petulent.....well aren't all gods a little moody, and sometimes downright capricious. I'm not sure I would trust any of them completely!

mike

I really like that fortuna, a brilliant analogy.

Wasn't it Aristotle that said?: (Paraphrase)
"if time is infinate, what did god do before he created the universe?"

It must have been one hell of a boring time for him.
Or maybe we're not the forst universe.
It doesn't say in Genesis.
Maybe because as far as god's concerned:

BC your pantheon theory, someone (cant remember who) explained it to me that the god to which Christians refer came from way back when each household/family had it's own god. In this case the house was Abraham, who became very powerful and demanded that everyone started worshipping his god therefore GOA God of Abraham.

Part of the reason for the question Stormy was curiosity on what people think, just because xtains get riled quite a bit, and we often laugh at their beliefs. Which led me to wonder if many pagans think xtainity is complete b*ll*cks and this so called One God is made up.

From many of the answers, I think the general consensus is the xtain god probably does exist, but rather the way he is preceived by xtain might be a bit screwed up, or to put it better, its the Bible that is b*ll*cks, not so much the God.

The christians do kinda believe in the pagan gods, but they see them all as being aspects of the devil.

The bit of the Bible that's always made me smile, is the 2nd (?) commandment - 'Thou shalt not put any other gods before me'. Now, that's all down to interpretation really. Does that mean 'Worship me first, before any other god' or does it mean 'You've gotta give up all other gods completely'? I know there are gonna be people who think it really doesn't matter, but I think it's interesting especially considering that Yahweh was deemed to be part of a pantheon in the original Hebrew texts.

To try to give a sensible answer, as I didn't really before -

He very well may exist, although he has quite enough people to believe in him to allow me not to bother. If he does, I don't think he's quite as his followers describe him.

Are you thinking of Canaanite mythology?

El (the word for "god" or "the God" in Hebrew) was the supreme god of the Canaanite pantheon - he is the father of all, the creator, etc, etc. Apparently all aspects of El were transferred to Yahweh (with the exception of his sexual activity, of course ) El's consort was Athirat.


Edited to add: I believe he exists as much as any other god or goddess - I just don't worship him.

Purely incidentally:
If I remember correctly...
Jehovah & Yahweh....simply different interpretations of the same name.
From; Y H W H in Hebrew correlating directly to J H V H in greek.
Basically the rule being; insert vowels of your choice.
If I remember correctly the greek rendition was first used when the Greek Septuaguint (probably spelt wrong) translation of the bible was produced.(Sorry, can't remember the date)

PS: I think that at was at around the time that Constantine accepted christianity but I'd have to check.

Wasn't there a legend to the effect that if anyone ever managed to pronounce god's real name correctly, they'd end the world? Or was it create another world?

The Christians are technically a sect of the Jewish faith and they worship Yahweh, who was if I remember correctly the god of war originally and the Muslims are technically a sect of Christianity.

They all worship basically worship the same god, who was a god of war, just in different ways and call him different names, if they ever stopped fighting eachother long enough to figure that out then we might get peace in the Middle East.

To answer your question I believe that all the gods and goddesses exist, but I don't find all of them suitable to work with or relevant to me.

Storm Raven

Well, God or Goddesses do exist ....to those who believe in them. My thought on this has always been that man created the God, Gods and Goddesses and gave them human attibutes, meaning they were fallable. A much better rendition I think to the ever perfect, all knowing Christian God.

What I find interesting, is that there have been numerous studies done on the healing properties of prayer and the Christian contingent is promoting this. What they don't seem to understand is that prayer is a form of meditation (IMHO) which has shown to have the same effect. In fact, recent studies have shown that meditation shows changes in the brain and activation of parts of the brain that we never knew much about before. Something the Buddist knew a long time ago

Personally I can accept the existance of a Xian god...just don't know if I would want to hang out with him.

god answer.
like the car sticker say, your rules, your god, you burn in hell.

or god save me from your followers.

i think the way we respect deitys is differant have they do, i find they tend to fear god, rather than just respect its there.
they use threats to get his word across.
to me they mourn their god rather than celebrate them.
it comes down to how we see them.

He exists about as much as the others do - in the hearts and minds of worshippers. That, to me, is the end of that. I don't need to believe in him, so I don't.

In my discussions with a Muslim I have learnt that the Muslim interpretation of Abraham's marriage and offspring is where the difference occurs.

Abraham was married but his wife (Sarah) was to old to have anymore children. He therefore had a fling with her maid (Hagar) and she gave birth to a son (Ishmael). Meanwhile Jahweh in his infinite wisdom made Sarah able to bare children again and she gave Abraham another son (Isaac)

Abraham sent Hagar and Ishmael away and stayed with Sarah.

The problem comes down to interpretation of Abraham's covenent with Jahweh.

Jahweh tested Abraham's faith by telling him to to sacrifice his youngest son. At the point of sacrifice Yahweh stopped him (just as well he had good timing) and supplied a goat instead.

This formed the covenent between the children of Abraham and 'God'

Problem is, it depends how you interpret it.

Jews and Christians see that son as Isaac as he was the youngest son of Abraham's legal wife.

Islam however maintains that it was Ishmael the son of Hagar.

So Jews are descended from Isaac but Arabs from Ishmael - both believe that they are the chosen race of their joint 'God'. Now into the middle of this comes Jesus (a jew to the Jews and Christians (though Christians don't always seem to remember this) but an arab to the Muslims).

The Jews see Jesus IIRC as at most a prophet but not the son of God.

The Muslims see Jesus as a prophet - one of many culminating in Mohammed who was the last prophet.

Christians see Jesus as both the son of God and also a material incarnation of God (an avatar perhaps) born into the world to bring his message and then to be sacrificed to 'save' mankind and thus by following Jesus they are the chosen race.


Hmmm images of anthills and poking with sticks come to mind

Sticking with the differing views of Jesus, I remember reading somewhere that a large part of the reason that the Jews didn't accpect Jesus as the Messiah is because he wasn't the warrior that they were expecting. They thought that they're Messiah was gonna lead them into battle against the Romans and all their other oppressors, and they would be victorious. But instead, along came a hippy spouting off about brotherly love.

I wasn't aware that it was the Ishmael vs Isaac that resulted in the difference between the Jews and the Muslims - cheers for that one Cos

Well Fuzi, Ishmael & Isaac was news to me too, but my Muslim friend is pretty deep into her religion and also very interested in talking about other religions too. I nearly put my foot in it when I said to her that Jesus was a Jew


Re the Jews expecting a warrior, that makes a lot of sense. If you look back to Moses, he took on the might of Egypt and took his people to freedom (well apart from all that wandering in the desert) getting a carpenter who not only hung around with lepers, prostitutes and, even worse, the IRS, he also said we should all be nice to each other