I know we've discussed this before on the old site and just gone round in circles trying to find commonality between the various Pagan paths. But Hearth Witch came across Paganism - An Introduction to Earth-centred Religions by River and Joyce Higginbotham * in the library last night and it offers two common aspects which I thought were rather interesting:

1. Everything in the universe is interconnected.

2. Pagans believe that there is basically nothing wrong with the way we are - unlike other religions/beliefs we don't feel the need to attain a state of perfection through meditation, hardship or salvation.

Taken together, are these two statements enough to set us apart from other belief systems and define what Pagan beliefs have in common?



* Suspend your cynicism but I think she may have stumbled upon a Llewellyn book worth reading. No, really!

Hi Skywatcher,

I'd agree these two statements are very widely held, core, views within the Pagan community, and suspect nearly all Pagans would agree with them - except of course those who disagree with any general statements about Paganism as a matter of principle .

I'm less convinced that they would be sufficient in themselves as a defining framework of Pagan religion as they don't refer to belief in, or experience of, divinity/the Gods, or to religious practice as such. You'd probably find a lot of people in agreement with these statements who wouldn't consider themselves to be Pagan, or indeed to have any kind of religious belief.

But it's an interesting perspective.

BB,

John Macintyre

Judging by the number of Pagan Atheists I've come across (myself included) I think excluding religious aspects from the definition is essential.

I can see people of other faiths agreeing with one or other of the statements but do you know of any faiths that would agree with both simultaneously?

It's always hard when trying to define paganism. I think the above one is a good description, but not necessarily a good definition. This is because I think that a word used so varyingly (it's a word now!) cannot be defined in one way. I may have a different definition to another person. I use the word in a different way to the dictionary version.

On reflection I agree with you Kat - I should've used description instead of definition. There's no official definition of Paganism but I think the book attempted a description of common factors among Pagans.

I don't know about faiths in general, but I know specific people, who are of a differing faith, who would agree with both....

That is why the definition/description appeals to me. I don't believe in diety of any kind and am frankly quick sick to death of the official bodies of Paganism telling me that a belief in such is a necessary criteria for being a Pagan. However that's a different discussion altogether



Yes, but they don't identify themselves as pagans. i think whatever definiton you write there is going to be some overlap with other faiths. Taking the deity example xians have a belief in such as well as many pagans. It doesn't mean to say that xians can't have that as one of their tenets of faith.

In the next bit of the book are some suggestions of definition...I'll have a read today and let you know what it says.

Okay - in the section 'General Characteristics of Paganism' it says:


*Paganism is a modern religion

*Paganism has no central hierarchy or dogma

*Paganism stresses personal responsibilty

*Paganism offers a new world view - incorporates science, metaphysics, mysticism and sees everything from the smallest atom to the largest planetary system as sacred

*Paganism is a spirituality - a way of living, praying and connecting to the flow of the universe


Any thoughts?

I'd disagree about it necessarily being a religion. And the bit about praying

Thank you very much for that. I'm going to take a looky at this book and if it is as thoughtful and well written as it sounds then I think I'll lend it to my parents. They mentioned that they were going to watch that Channel 4 programe to see what me and my partner were all about *groan* I bet they've forgotten all about it now and watched waking the dead or something, but I think they've never really understood what I meant by being a pagan.

I would agree with those two statements and I think together with identifying ones self as a pagan I think its as close to a description that I can come.

I'm another pagan atheist

Hi Skywatcher,

"Judging by the number of Pagan Atheists I've come across (myself included) I think excluding religious aspects from the definition is essential."

I see what you mean but I'd tend to regard a Pagan Atheist as someone with pagan attitudes rather than as being a Pagan, simply because I view Paganism as a religion. Unless you're taking the "Don't believe in the Gods - it only encourages them!" line? (please visualise a smiley at this point - I'm new to webmail and can't work out how to put the damn things in!).


"I can see people of other faiths agreeing with one or other of the statements but do you know of any faiths that would agree with both simultaneously."

Faiths, no, because no religion having more than one adherent will ever have a uniformly consistent view on anything. But I can think of a few individual Unitarians, Buddhists, Quakers and liberal Christians who would probably sign up to both quite happily.

BB,

John Macintyre

Would the same apply to Christianity then - are those who don't believe in the literal existence of God (like many liberal Christians) not Christians but simply people adopting a Christian attitude?

I think I rather take exception to that remark

A beautiful illustration of the fact that the only absolute definition of a Pagan is "one who identifies him/herself as a pagan"

All in the eye of the beholder.....

I think you're right Amethystine - it's like trying to find a definition of art. I like Brian Sewell's definition - that it's art if it's in an art gallery!

Hmmm.... I'm not entirely sure that Paganism is strictly a modern religion - wouldn't it be more accurate to say it's a revived religion, perhaps? I'm thinking especially in terms of Northern Tradition (as that's where I have experience) but also in general terms.

Of course, I may be wrong - I'm happy to be corrected if anyone has anything less, errrm, flimsy than my view!

Well, I'd probably say that paganism can be both modern and ancient, as reconstructionalists follow a path which would be called pagan and is not modern.

Sounds like a book to get you thinking anyway

"1. Everything in the universe is interconnected."
However I tend not to think of things in terms of the universe but in the terms of the planet I live on and I believe that everything in this world is inter-connected in some way. I don't necessarily agree that everything in the universe is interconnected because it's too damn big and we know bugger all about it

"2. Pagans believe that there is basically nothing wrong with the way we are - unlike other religions/beliefs we don't feel the need to attain a state of perfection through meditation, hardship or salvation."
Would agree in general, though feel that folk should take care and attention to what is around them, be it people or the environment Bugger mod cons and 'must-haves' I ain't interested

"Paganism is a modern religion"
No, Paganism is not a religion nor is it modern. Like other religions and belief systems it has evolved over the years, and is most likely to be quite unrecognisable to those who previously used, worked and felt the land

"Paganism has no central hierarchy or dogma"
Definately no dogma, as for the central heirarchy well some groups try and fail

"Paganism stresses personal responsibilty"
Agree, and wish the three fold law and harm none crap would get lost and leave the rest of us to follow our own sense of personal responsibilty

"Paganism offers a new world view - incorporates science, metaphysics, mysticism and sees everything from the smallest atom to the largest planetary system as sacred"
It does? News to me indeed Paganism is being realistic about things, that cute sweet bunny in the field is cute and sweet, and is over running the place and can easily end up in your dinner pot

"Paganism is a spirituality - a way of living, praying and connecting to the flow of the universe."
It is a spirituality yes, it is for many a way of living but not all I'd say, bugger connecting to the universe, not my thing, and bugger the prayers as well I do not pray to my Gods to communicate with them.

*ahem* just my thoughts naturally

I hope you guys don't mind me comming in at this point.
I've followed the debate on and off all day.

I'm another Pagan Atheist but that must be a contradiction in terms anyway.
I was brought up in an evangelical type christian faith and can honestly say that I never believed a word of it, getting out as soon as I was able. I have always been drawn more to what people refer to as paganism, especially our ancient British variety, but how close is the apparently contrived modern representation of this to the ancient beliefs, as very little is really known of those beliefs. Isn't a lot of so called modern Paganism "filling in" for our lack of real knowledge of thos ancient beliefs? Don't we now have to base a lot of modern paganism on Intuition.

My question would be; atheism dismisses god but does it exclude spirituality?
I don't find spirituality within so called "organised religion" but do find it in certain places, It's an indefinable but palpable instinct. I would say that I certainly don't believe in a christian style "god" but have to admit that there is something greater than us out there. I can feel it. So must you guys.

So am I an atheist or not?
I guess that makes me an agnostic.
Or does it?

I don't think I understand what you mean by pagan aetheist - and I've heard this term used a lot in recent times.

Come on guys, enlighten me and Willow Please.

Dave, you've said you are a pagan atheist, so what does that mean?

I can't believe in "a God".
But I do know that our inate human spirituality obviously predates the so-called modern religions. I suppose if I must point towards a religion other than Paganism, (to which I am instinctively drawn), it might be Taoism which accepts that all objects, creatures etc. carry a "spirit", "energy" call it what you will.
I'm sure that the original "Pagans" were motivated by that same basic principle.

Maybe catch you tomorrow,
I'm off now,
Would like to continue the discussion though.

You might want to look at Pantheism.

Defining Paganism,


hmm, I think of it as nature based. One who respects the earth, her beauty, grander. Knowing theres many unseen things out there.

Yes, an interconnectness.

Listening, yes to the trees, the wind, the weather, having respect, for all living things/creatures.

One who believes in the God and Goddesses.

I like following the cycle of the wheel, keeps me in tune with the earth and her rythms and rhymes.

I like knowing, I'm on an everlasting, search quenching path.

Where, I won't get bored and there is soo much to learn and understand and value.

Knowing I have much to learn yet!! By keeping an open mind, realizing we can barely grasp the infinity of this and other planets.

I love nature and I love knowing that other people respect that and know that worshiping outside, can be just as or even more profound, then being inside any church.

Definately believe in prayer and visuaization. Seen the power, the results.

and yes, I love learning magick! not the reason, to be pagan, but to teach me, guide me, help me grow. Its also a displine, for me anyway..

i have trouble with focus and for the first time, ever, I've found rituals help focus me and keep me in touch~ grounded with the inner me and the spirits and my animal totems who guide me.

I love the mysticm, the many ways, one is led.

Listening to my heart and soul and following my own dreams .... even when it doesn't make sense to the mainstream 8-5 world.

being pagan, to me is just sigh freedom!!

its the real me... believeing in the unseen, and knowing its true, like astrology, reincarnation, etc...

Blessings and always follow your dreams~
wherever they may guide you~

Whisperedwind~

ps: i still don't get how anyone can be an atheist, when
God's, the Goddess beauty surrounds us, all the time and when you can really Feel the Divine in your heart.
_________________

thanks for that link for pantheism - I've never seen it before, even though I have been calling myself a pagan pantheist for years!


Thankyou

Oak