Over on the 'defining paganism' thread JohnMcIntyre said that in his opinion pagan atheists can't be pagans because Paganism is a religion, rather they had Pagan attitudes.

So, what do the rest of us think?

Personally, Paganism is not a religion, it's a belief system encompassing many Pagan beliefs (and perhaps religions if you look at Wicca/druidry etc. that way.) Within the Pagan belief system I've always considered that there is room for those who follow the festivals...or don't, for those who believe in deities...or don't etc etc. But am I right?

Both the PF and PEBBLE state that a belief in the G and Gs is one of the 'criteria' for being a Pagan. That gets my back up somewhat but should it? Should those of us that don't 'do' dieties accept then that we're not really Pagans? That we just have 'attitudes'.


hearth Witch
(the one with attitude/s)

I feel that one of the great things about Paganism is that there is not unquestionable spiritual leader. There is no one who has the right to tell you that you are either a Pagan or not. I think if you speak to any two pagans they are always going to have beliefs that differ even slightly because the kind of people attracted to paganism are free thinking and out to discover.

In my opinion, a pagan is someone that follows a path (note: not religion) which is either reconstructionalist pagan, or earth based. Therefore, there is nothing stopping an atheist calling themselves pagan.
Of course, we all have different definitions of paganism so will all have different answers.

I think atheist in pagan terms is slightly different to atheist in non-pagan terms.

An atheist, in the non-pagan world believes in no deity, no divinity, no connections, no afterlife, no rebirth., You are born, you live, you die, the end.

I dont think many pagan atheists would have those views. I think we call ourselves atheists purely to denote that we do not worship deities. Yet, by the very fact of calling ourselves pagan we acknowledge the connections and very often a more universal type of energy, that others may call divinity. Pagan atheists dont personify divinity.


I think John MacIntyre may have been referring more to the first type?

IMHO, anyway

And Hearth Witch, labels arent important.

People just feel the need to pigeonhole themselves as poeple who stay out of the pigeon coop are scary.

People like to connect, and very often the only way they can is with a title of some sort. Golfer, drinker, pagan...

I agree



I agree and disagree with this! I agree on the level that they're just means of identification with other like minded individuals, and shouldn't be taken too seriously. In general terms I dislike labelling, and stay well away from the pigeon coop! But on the other hand when organisations such as the PF and PEBBLE, which are supposed to represent us all, tell the rest of the world that (amongst other things) Pagans believe in diety in some form or other then, yes, it is important.



That may be so, but in relation to the point I made above - people who aren't Pagans aren't going be aware of any difference, if indeed there is one.

This is the problem with one body trying to represent all pagans. Paganism is just too broad to be pulled under one umbrella, and this is precisely why there has never been a central body, and in my belief, there never could be.

To be honest, I'm not sure I like the sound of a pagan central body. Sounds a bit too much like the formation of an organised religion to me, and we all know where that road leads.....

If the price for not being represented means not being a Pagan , then I'll not be a Pagan. I'll be an Amethystinist, whatever.....

Even amongst other pagans, or even people in general, there will only be a few with whom we share many beliefs and ideas. That doesn't change, and it doesn't matter what your label is, or who represents you.

Or indeed, what other people think you might be and believe.

could I just state that I believe in God and Goddess as anthropormorphic (sp?) personifications of a greater universal energy? This, therefore, makes me pagan within the letter of the above stated criteria, if not in the spirit that it was intended?

Also, would it be considered having an attitute if I didn't give a **** what Pebble think? lol

Nice one Bramwen! I like it. I don't think Paganism bares definition well. It wears a different face to greet each person, It's enough to know that if you say you're Pagan, there's going to be things we agree on, maybe more than we disagree on although maybe not...

Have I put that in the wrong thread? Possibly Feel free to move if think it's best then.

I accept that there is something out there & I call it Lord & Lady, but I do not worship them, nor do I 'pray' to them. I chat to them & occasionally ask them to help someone on my behalf in some way. I don't really see them as God & Goddess per se, more as extensions of Nature, the seasons & the self. Does that make me any less a Pagan than someone who worships a specific deity? I don't necessarily think so. I class myself both as a Witch & a Pagan. I just so happen to think of myself as being on an equal footing to whatever is out there. If that sounds big-headed I don't mean it to be - I don't think of myself as being any better or any worse than anyone else - after all, I'm just me, it's just that I feel no need to bow down & they seem quite happy with the arrangement we have going.

I agree that it's very difficult to find a definition of Paganism that will suit everyone as, like Esk says, it presents itself to everyone individually & appeals to ua all on a very personal level. We're all different, but then again, it would be a very boring world if we were all the same, wouldn't it?!

i wonder if god/godess's believe in atheists?

sorry about that

Other people have already said what I was going to say

Paganism is very different for different people, and I don't think anyone can say that someone isn't a pagan because they don't believe in dieties.

So in answer to the original question, Are Pagan Atheists Pagans?, Yes, I think they are, and don't see why they shouldn't be.

We'll just never know, will we?

Hi Hearth Witch,

You wrote:

"Over on the 'defining paganism' thread JohnMcIntyre said that in his opinion pagan atheists can't be pagans because Paganism is a religion, rather they had Pagan attitudes."

Umm.. not exactly. It all depends on what you mean by religion, and by atheism. Most of the (non-Pagan) atheists I know would be deeply offended by the implication that they were in any way religious, as they seem to adopt a Bertrand Russell-ish "all religion is ignorant superstition" approach. If you define atheism specifically as having no belief in any kind of deities, then I can understand where a Pagan atheist might be coming from, even though I wouldn't agree with their particular Pagan religious beliefs. If you define atheism as the repudiation of any religious belief, then I don't see how an atheist of that type could be a Pagan. I know some Pagans dislike the word 'religion', associating it with hierarchies of men in funny hats killing people over theological differences, but it merely derives from a latin word meaning 'to bind' and I rather think a broad definition of religion as what binds us to the earth, to each other, to spirit, and to life generally is perfectly compatible with Paganism.

"Both the PF and PEBBLE state that a belief in the G and Gs is one of the 'criteria' for being a Pagan."

I cannot speak for PEBBLE but I can certainly state that the PF says no such thing. The Three Principles of the PF are criteria for membership, not an absolute and all encompassing defintion of Paganism. The third principle, specifically, is framed to encompass a broad range of Pagan theological positions including polytheism, pantheism, animism and Goddess-monotheism. It certainly can accomodate belief in God(s) and Goddess(es) but is not confined to that.

"Should those of us that don't 'do' dieties accept then that we're not really Pagans? That we just have 'attitudes'."

I'm sorry if I gave you the impression I regarded religion purely as a matter of believing in deities. That is not the case, nor can such a question be reduced to a simple either/or framework - especially when you begin to explore the range of meanings within Pagan understandings of what can be meant by 'belief' and what can be meant by 'deities' or 'Deity'.

Best Wishes,

John Macintyre

Does it really matter what we think, it is the opinion of the individual atheist pagan as to whether or not they regard themselves as a Pagan that matters.

PEBBLE are trying to educate the goverment and the civil service as to what Paganism is and what Pagans do, the trouble is that they have never tried to comprehend let alone understand anything as diverse as Paganism, it is a slow process as the they seem to be easily confused.

Storm Raven

All of the definitions I have found say



I have always thought that someone could quite easily be a pagan without believing in gods, as many people believe in the power of nature itself, or other things along those lines.

In that sense I think a Pagan Atheist is simply that, a Pagan who is an Atheist.

I thought for quite a while that an Atheist was someone with no spiritual beliefs, but it seems I was mislead! If that were the case, maybe some people are Pagan Agnostics? But that was before I actually looked up Atheism

I don't think there is any problem in being a pagan atheist - I've even met someone who made the distinction between 'theist pagans' and 'atheist pagans' so he must have been pretty familar and comfortable with the concept. To me an atheist pagan may have ethical and lifestlye principles compatible with a theist (mono or poly) pagan but the 'why' behind what they do will be different. It's a case of the practice probably being reasonably similar, but the principle and philosophy being different.

As for me, definatley a theist pagan, although I don't formally celebrate festivals apart from what I cook and the plants I have in my house, and I don't follow any particular named deity. I guess I would say I am an animist or a pantheist... I don't see the divine (plural or singular, doesn't matter to me) as in any way separate from anything else... I don't talk to it or give it a name, but I remember its n the water and earth and everything else, the thing that makes the atoms spin. I dont think it knows me or talks to me because I don't think its separate from me. Someone told me once this made me an atheist. Confusing or what... I found it so.

Oak

Hi Amethystine,

You wrote:

"I think atheist in pagan terms is slightly different to atheist in non-pagan terms. An atheist, in the non-pagan world believes in no deity, no divinity, no
connections, no afterlife, no rebirth., You are born, you live, you die, the end.
I dont think many pagan atheists would have those views."

><SNIP><

"I think John MacIntyre may have been referring more to the first type?"

That's precisely what I was referring to, thanks.

Incidentally, I fully agree that it would be neither possible nor desirable to have all Pagans under the same umbrella, part of the same organisation, or even agreeing about exactly what Paganism is. It's a strength rather than a weakness.

But we do seem to be doing rather well with a kind of polycentric approach to community building, in which a few organisations do civic advocacy/public education work, rather more organisations & groups organise events and activities of various kinds, a large number of organisations and groups provide information, networking and ritual training, and a mass of individuals offer varying degrees of conditional support for all of this. It's not a planned system, but it's surprisingly effective.

Best Wishes,

John Macintyre

although I struggle to define Paganism, whatever jumbled idea I have includes Pagans with no beleif in any Gods.

Late to this discussion and am only basically agreeing with previously stated opinions in this Not all Pagans believe in God/Goddesses, some see the power of the land as a kind of deity and others have no deity but are without doubt Pagan It matters not - they are Pagan in heart and mind

I think the easiest way to define the difference between someone with a pagan outlook and believes in gods, and someone who doesn't believe in the gods is with a simple typo. If we use a capital 'P' for those who believe in the gods - like a Christian believes in god - and a little 'p' for those who just have the lifestyle - again, like a christian lifestyle.

Just a thought.

But it's not either/or, is it? I mean, just because I don't believe in the gods foesn't mean all I am left with is 'just' a lifestyle?

I am not polytheist, I am pantheist, so I have a very deeply held and religious link to my P/paganism - it is not 'just a lifestyle' - without any belief in deity/ies (although tons of respect for their sacredness - in fact, have just posted a new topic about this above).

I think you are oversimplifying in your efforts to get everyone who isn't a polytheist pagan to fit under that little umbrella of the 'little p'

It doesn't matter too much to me anyway - I'd rather name myself than let someone else do it, even if its just a case of a capital letter or not. Nevertheless, something to think about maybe?

Oak

Polytheist, pantheist, monotheist - they all imply a belief in a higher being, not necessarily worship. Atheist on the other hand means NO belief in a higher being. That was the idea I was trying to get across.

It was only a suggestion to try to create someway for those of us on this site to understand each other better in a simple manner without having to resort to whole paragraphs to explain which 'type' of pagan we mean. It's the system I use for myself, I find it works.

If it works for you that's the main thing, but I doubt that many pantheists would concur with your assertion that they believe in a 'higher' being...

Oak

edited to add: that was sounding smug and sanctimonious on it's own, and that's not how I meant it. I understand that you are trying to draw the distinction between deists and non-deists, but even non-deists have something other than just lifestyle most of the time and the point about pantheism still stands... its not theism in the same way as mono/poly/animistic theology is.

I have to say that as a pantheist, I don't believe in a higher being. That said, I'm not sure how many pagans are actually atheists - agnostics are more likely. For example, I don't think there are Gods, but it's not like I could prove this, so I'm more than happy to say I don't really know. I also don't particularly care, as I'm perfectly happy not having any. Heck, as a pantheist, I don't have a god to revere - I have a universe!

That sounded awfully corny. I shall now hang my head in shame.

aww nicely put polarbeer

No way! Pantheists of the world unite, that's what I say.

*cheesy grin*

Oak

I guess , I still have a hard time with this one.

Paganism and believing in a higher power~God's/Goddess, go hand in hand with my own beliefs..

I just don't see how one can Not believe in them..

When to me there is daily proof, that there IS a higer power..

hmm, interesting subject, tho

Oh go on then - what's the daily proof you're thinking of, Whisperedwind?

As an eminent Catholic theologian once wrote "aethism is an act of faith". We all have our reasons for accepting things as true even those things we are unable to 'prove'. This means though that no big P or little one is needed, why should one 'faith' be held holier/more relevant than another? Deity and divinity have many faces and understandings. I accept the existance of gods and all manner of wights but I am a decided atheist because none of those beings made myself or the world I live in, none of them has moral superiority over me. Whatever power they have or wisdom they cannot do ALL or know ALL ... in this sense there is no God to expalin/found/give reason to etc the world and life as it is, there is just the web of choice and possibility, the web of Anwen, which needs no worship as it has no awareness or volition. Ramblings? Maybe but that makes me a 'Pagan Aetheist' or a 'Philosophical Pagan' perhaps because I view the 'old ways' as human wisdom and not 'divinely revealed'.