An Amilyi ranty-ramble:
For six years I’ve been ‘wandering about’, trying to find a path. In an attempt to become more connected to my spiritual side, I joined this site: it worked. Due to the greater information and communication with other pagans, I began to find all of these other paths. Recently, I discovered Shamanism, and believe that it’s the path for me.

To look into it seriously, I bought ‘The Celtic Shaman: A Practical Guide’ after checking that the author (John Matthews) actually had some authentic knowledge of the subject. I also bought a guide to runes to help my divining skill, and have been trying to find internet sites and Shaman topics on the internet and UKP.

I like to use tarot cards, runes, a pendulum and a crystal ball and am currently trying to enhance my divining and meditation skills (my ability to visualise is very good – if only because my head is always in the clouds!). To help in meditation I am thinking of getting a singing bowl.

To make sure I am doing everything correctly, I am taking my time, trying to perfect my meditation before moving onto the next steps.

I like Shamanism because of the healing aspect, totem animals and the belief of other planes of existence.

The actual question:
I know very well that reading one book on the subject does not make me an expert in any way. Being a real beginner at Shamanism, does anyone have any advice, any recommendations on reading material, authors to read, techniques, tools etc?

Also, what do you believe Shamanism involves? Yes – I have looked into this, but I like to listen the other people’s opinions, keep an open mind and never jump to conclusions (as a result, I sometimes come across as naïve, slow or just plain dumb but I will always try to check my facts before opening my mouth).

All opinions are very much appreciated. Thank you!

I am no expert on the subject but apparently you can only get trained by a Shaman, so that would mean travelling to Haiti or someplace else that has it traditionally. Even then its hard to find them.

If I could find a Shaman teacher I would - even if it meant leaving Wintry ol' England for sunnier climes. At the moment, using books seems more likely than finding an actual teacher, sadly. I don't know whether self-taught will be any less effective than being taught by a real Shaman (I'm sure it'll be more difficult, definitely) but hopefully it won't prevent me getting there in the end.

Amilyi, another forum I'm on (when I have a few minutes) has a member on a shamanic path who is very forthcoming and although I know damn all about the subject he seems to know his stuff, if you're interested pm me for a link, it's a site for beginners of all paths so you ask your questions without feeling self concious.

I don't think you need to be trained by another, it certainly would help but you don't need to go to Haiti for any kind of training. There are a few Shamans knocking around the British Isles that work in various traditions. The one I'm studying/ beginning to practise is Seidhr, which is Northern Tradition. Probably the best person on here to PM would be Seidkona who's a practitioner of Seidhr and a published author in that field.

As for tools, I'd get a drum, a bodhran style drum and practise keeping a steady beat on it. I've only just started to incorporate drumming as a means of inducing trance but I prefer it to the lying down and sinking further and further in and possibly falling asleep method. It's faster and a lot more powerful. Read about shamanism in every known culture that you can, there are archetypal experiences to be found in Shamanism regardless of the culture that it is practised in. Read original accounts of shamanism being practised, take part in online discussions and most importantly, get practising it. Work on inducing that trance state, don't just be an armchair shaman. Please don't jump into using Ayahuasca or anything, get some kind of experience with working in the otherworld first.

Good luck

In fact I'd go so far as to say Haiti would be the entirely wrong place for shamanistic training; the shamanic paths of most countries tend to involve the shaman leaving the physical realm and travelling to other planes, while Haitian Vodou calls the spirits from the other realms down into this one!

Best of luck on your journey, Amilyi

What exactly is Seidhr? Is it Celtic Shamanism? Is 'Celtic Shamanism' an umbrella term the way that 'Paganism' is?



I have thought about getting one. I'll have a look on ebay and when I go down to see my relations this weekend, I know of a shop called 'Absolutely Africa' which is more than likely to sell drums.



Ayahuasca... is that some kind of drug? I remember watching 'Extreme Celebrity Detox' ( ) which very coincidentally featured a Shamanic part to it where (if I remember correctly) they took a drug - some kind of paste made from the natural plants - to go on a 'shamanic experience'. I have no interest in drugs to get me into that frame of mind, and like you say, I do need to get some experience of the Otherworld first. Saying that, I did see an interesting mention of Yew trees in a 'Drugs and Paganism' post; the scent/sap of the yew tree in summer can apparently be used to help induce a trance-like state. I would look forward to finding out if this is true... but yet again only when I have some experience of the Otherworld.


Thanks to you all for the advice and encouragement so far!

Seidhr is Norse, female shamanic path, although from what I've picked up Odin learnt it too. Not Celtic at all, I tend to be a bit wary of anything prefixed by the word 'Celtic' in most cases because of the tendancy to paint a picture of Celts that doesn't really resemble the warrior race they actually seem to have been. It does get rather abused sadly, not that I'm speaking for what you've studied as I've never read that book.



Hmmm, maybe I'll shut up and let Elswyth answer this..

I'm not an expert Esk - in fact you probably know as much (if not more than) me !!!

Like Esk said, Seidhr is a Shamanic path, she said that it's female but that's because the majority of practitioners have been and still seem to be female. Seidhr has always had negative female conotations from what I can tell (probably church influence), but that's not to say that it's a 'feminine' art. That's rubbish. Like Esk said, Odhinn himself practised the art.

Erm...you'll have to excuse this but I've been up since have five this morning and so am not very coherent. Get the drum. It's a very good move. Get a rattle too if you can. It all seems to come together at the best time anyway. I've been interested in Seidhr for ages but have only really started on serious study. I've only really got the tools and materials for it so I take that as being a sign that I've been deemed capable of operating in the realms that I'm required to.

It's only taken me years to get here, there's no easy way to this.

Sorry, tiredness sinking in, going now

I think you can be on a shamanic path, and use the practices, without having to become "a shaman", which would require serious dedication and a teacher. One shamanic teacher I have met gives this definition: "A shaman works by asking the spirits for help". Anyone can ask for help. It seems to me very similar to praying to a saint to intercede for you, except that you are getting specific help rather than just hoping.

So it's about asking for guidance on a problem, or asking literally for help to overcome a problem. Healing seems to take place by the sorting out of energies. If you have an energy within you that holds you back, makes you ill, is not part of your essential nature, the shaman (with the help of the spirits) would lift this out of you and dispose of it. If you lost an essential piece of yourself due to trauma, the shaman would enlist spirit help to retrieve that part and reunite it with you, to make you more whole, more well.

A shaman is really a term for a person who acts as a go between between the spirit worlds and their community. Without a community to work within, calling Oneself a Shaman would be like calling Oneself a healer, but never actually healing. As well as approaching the spirit world on behalf of their community, they must be prepared to act as a bridge to our world on behalf of the spirits!

Although most religions have shamanic origins, some are much closer to their Shamanic roots. As has been mentioned before, I would be wary of the idea of Celtic Shamanism. I fear the word Celtic is often used to make things more attractive. Maybe the Norse tradition would be something worth exploring. Or perhaps the practices of the Siberian tribes, or (until recently) the Lapps and Sami (sp?).

How strong is your sense of the spirit world? How do you feel about the idea of spirits in everything; rocks, birds, sofas, blades of grass? Does this ring true to you? If it does, do you think you would ever be able to form a bridge between those worlds and our world?

Good luck with your quest!

mike

Peter Aziz

Society of Celtic Shamans

Hallowquest

Ross Heaven

Glastonbury

Eagleswing

There are more courses around the country too. Lots of groups you can contact too. Do a little web searching and maybe get yourself a copy of Sacred Hoop magazine.

BB

Mike

Thanks for clearing up that point, Esk and Elswyth!



Perhaps I could start off on a Shamanic path and later on go on to find a teacher and become a real Shaman. I'm not in any hurry - I'd rather perfect one technique before moving onto the next rather than rushing through just to say 'I did it all' and call myself a Shamanka.



Well, at the moment I don't have a community I can work for, so that kind of puts a dampening on becoming a Shaman! Still, I do want to be able to help heal animals, humans and help in the other worlds and I would intend to use whatever Shamanic gifts I have for the greater good. I'm young (18) so I'll try and develop what gifts I have and hopefully I'll have the chance to use them later on in my life.



I'm not really sure how strong my sense with the spirit worlds are - I don't ever remember seeing anything or hearing anything as a child. Sometimes, I feel as if I can feel a (friendly) presence in my house, but of course there is no proof. I have never felt this way in any of the other houses I have lived in - and I have lived in many. I'm not sure how relevant this is to the otherworlds, but I find I dream considerably more than the 'normal' adult, as family and friends have told me.

I have absolutely no problem in believing that plants, humans and animals have souls, but the idea that my T.V. remote control has one might take a little getting used to! This is due to the Christian idea that only humans have souls and everything exists to serve us. I've always had trouble believing this idea, even when I was a child looking for spiritual beliefs in Christianity. However, due to the Western world's lifestyle and the way Christianity manages to permeate into most things, it makes the view of inanimate objects having souls harder to believe. (That was a bit of a ramble, wasn't it? Hope it made some form of sense!)

I believe I have the potential to form a bridge between this world and the others but I'll only find out if I persue it, make the effort and find out.

Thankfully, some of the information given to me were things i already knew. I say thankfully, because it means I haven't come across any conflicts with information I have collected so far.

And finally, thanks Cern for all of those links - I'll be sure to have a good look at them all and see if I can find a copy of the magazine you mentioned!

A shaman was fundamentally a healer. Only become a Shaman if you have a 'tribe' that your work will heal.

A pagan was fundamentally a country dweller. Only become a pagan if you live in the country.

A heathen was fundamentally a dweller on the heath. Only become a heathen if you live on a heath.

I have to disagree with you to a certain extent Ewok. It is true that someone following a traditional shamanic path will be living in a community that has shamanism intrinsically linked with their way of life. But perhaps what is happening here is the perfix 'neo' is being dropped as the company here is pagan (with the 'neo' dropped again). We could get picky about terminology and insist on the prefix always being applied. But I can't help but feel that on a pagan message board it might be something that we can all take for granted unless someone specifically states that they are following a pure traditional path and can supply evidence (do we really need to get to that state even?).

I wonder just how many of us could really place our practises under the spotlight of the path origin and see no difference at all.

There are core shamanic techniques that are taught that can be transferred to our larger 'community', and it is possible to tend to a community of those we meet who are interested and willing to give our healing work a go.

Amilyi, it is worthwhile researching your path thoroughly. There will always be some who will want you to justify your adoption of one title or another. It helps if you can show how you justify it to yourself with a good understanding of how it has been applied in its traditional setting.

BB

Mike

"cern:
A pagan was fundamentally a country dweller. Only become a pagan if you live in the country."

Wrong - heard of the Roman empire? Yeah...they lived in towns and cities as well as in the countryside.

"A heathen was fundamentally a dweller on the heath. Only become a heathen if you live on a heath."

Yes, that's true.

"I wonder just how many of us could really place our practises under the spotlight of the path origin and see no difference at all."

Indeed, I agree with this point.

I think Cern was basing the 'Pagan' definition on the origin of the word rather than the terminology it has come to mean. The Romans called those who wouldn't abandon their own practices and join in with the Romans 'pagans' which ultimately translates as 'countrydweller' a bit like up here where we call those of a yokel disposition 'teuchters'

Thanks Esk.

BB

Mike

Some wonderful books , that are very spiritual and include alot of Native Americanism.. are

Authors

MARY SUMMER RAIN, start with her very first book, SPIRIT SONG,

her books are Fantastic!! She also has a book called
PHANTOMS AFOOT.

Shes written about 19 books, very very deep.

also LYNN V ANDERSON, writes some very interesting books, including journeying, etc. She has a Native American spirit teacher..

I think , you'll find alot of value in those books, I have!!

Blessings
Whisperedwind~

Amilyi...

First of all, consider what it is that you want to explore. People will fall over themselves arguing over the definition of words like 'shaman'....

Generally, 'shamanic' traditions, in the new, modern sense, covers dealing in some way with non ordinary realities... either through trance work, or hallucinogenic plants, or drumming, chanting, meditations... or just through the power of thought and knowledge....


Ask yourself, do you want to know. If you want to know, then you will find a way; you will find people to help you. Know what? Who knows???? That is the deal! You want to know, but you don't know what... if you truly want to know.... then you will search for knowledge.... seek and ye shall find..... Myself, I do not believe that there is any one on earth who knows all that there is to know.... but that does not stop us from wanting to know more and more.....

To me, shamanism, in the modern sense is about knowledge.... And I do believe, as Socrates said, that all knowledge is within....

Anyway, for my two penneth, I recommend Carlos Castaneda - he wrote some very thought provoking books, and his take on Shamanism is very liberating....


Peace,
Fire Spritey.

Aren't all paths about knowledge to some degree? I thought shamanism was not about what is within so much as about what is beyond the confines of Oneself. Surely it is about connection with the spirit world in some way. Sounds like a very watered down version of traditional Shamanism to me. Can't help but wonder what a traditional Siberian shaman would make of it.

mike

Had to add these books too!

If you're into Animal Totems~ check out JAMIE SAMMS books, they also come with an animal deck and are great!

She also has another book, out, hmm called Medicine Cards.. I think, both are very interesting and valuable.

I think, to become a true shaman, requires years, of dedicated study, with a true shaman.

When the student is ready.. the teacher will come .

I love learning, Native American things, they touch my soul deeply. I feel its part, of one, of my past lives.

Its always good to start studying and learning.. such a wonderful lifelong learning experience!!

Blessings
Whisperedwind

I think there is much truth in what Fire sprite says. Some great advice. But you have made some valid points here too Fortuna. The knowledge is about what is within AND what is without. You cannot traverse the otherworlds successfully unless you have developed a good (but not necessarily complete) understanding of your own inner worlds. Only then can you understand your relationship with the otherworlds and work with other peoples (and beings) links to the otherworlds.

From my perspective one is always a student as a shaman (neo or otherwise). One is always learning. I don't believe it is possible to learn all there is to learn about this world or the otherworlds. So the path (along with other pagan paths) is a lifelong learning experience. That also works as a lifelong learning experience about the inner world as well as the outer and otherworlds.

BB

Mike

Well, why don't you ask one... because your response implies that in some way they would probably agree with you. So before one imples such a thing, one should
check with them. It is my experience that most shamans consider themselves in some way to be warriors, and usually have a philosophy of never speaking for another warrior.. as this is a great insult, like saying they can not defend themselves.... or that you have power to speak on behalf of another.



No, not all paths are about knowledge. Some paths are about blindness, or illusion, or reaffirming fixed beliefs, or about gaining more fixed theories instead of wisdon and knowledge.

By the by, who is to say that traitional shamanism is the be all and end all? To my mind, traditional shamanism is Siberian shamanism... but if we want to extend the meaning we can see many traditions included under this label....

By the by 2... what you thought shamanism was about is not necessarily what shamanism is about.... there are many people in the world, each with a slightly different take on things.....

I wonder, what is it that you mean by 'beyond the confines of oneself'.....???

Connection with the spirit world is a way of talking.,.. an English language phrase with in built cultural meanings specific to English speaking peoples.... there is truth and knowledge beyond language, in my humble view..... and to try to force all of the knowledge in the world in to English phraseology will not necessarily get you to the truth of those things.

There is more to 'being' in my humble view, than what is within or outside oneself.. or rather, it is a more complex thing than this.

No, I do not believe it is necessary by any means to have a teacher of any kind to follow a shamanic path. It is helpful to have a guide, but not necessary. Shamanic knowledge comes from a source within, in my humble view, and so no one can teach you an understanding of this knowledge, only guide you in order for you to come to your own understandings....

As for American Indians, shamanism is not a Native American religion or path.. only in a broad sense are there some practices like that.... Some Indians are very wise, some not so... all are human.... British people are not less able to understand and use 'shamanic' knowledge than Indians.

PeaceX.

No, no I wasn't claiming to speak for traditional Shamans (not aware of any living in the Stourbridge area). I stated that I thought your description sounded very wishy washy, given what I know of shamanism, which isn't a lot. I then went on to wonder what a traditional Shaman would make of it. The word "wonder" implies that I do not know what a Siberian Shaman would say. If I had said something along the lines of, "a Siberian Shaman would say........", then I would have been attempting to speak for them. So I was not saying that I had the right to speak for them, or that they are defensless if you read my post again. Why look for an "implication" of my meaning, when I have made my meaning quite explicit?

The main thrust of the post was that your description of Shamanism seems like a very watered down version of traditional Shamanism. I rather think it is more insulting to steal, and water down a culture that has survived by the tenacity of its people for thousands of years. Cultural theft in my view, but hey.....thats just my view.

Incidently why do you keep describing your view as humble? You points are well put, and got me thinking. And we both know that you don't see your points as humble. Using the words "humble" all the time just sounds sarcastic.

mike

So now you speak for me also? I use the phrase 'in my humble view' or IMHO or IMHV to denote that I do not claim that I am the be all and end all, or that my ideas are asserted as unassailable truth.

Why did I say what I say?? Because of 'implication'... your implication was not merely to 'wonder'... your implication was clear... that traditional shamans would have something to say about it.

Cultural theft? How can truth be stolen, I ask you? If there is truth inthe world, then it is the birth right of all beings, not just beings from one area. Dressing like an Indian... that is a kind of cultural silliness... unless you are Stevie Vai or in The Cult or a beautiful hippy chick.... they can all get away witi it.....

How do you know that the shamans of Siberiea view spreading knowledge in the form of 'cultural theft'... are you speaking for them again?

X.

By the by, you know nothing of my knowledge or practice, and little of shamanism, so how do you know what is watered down or not?

Knowledge is not wishy washy.... knowledge in and of itself is the most powerful magical tool there is, and its power opens all of the other secrets of how other magics work.....and alone, in and of itself, knowledge can open all the doors of shamanism..... in my humble view.

Firesprite, Fortuna was very clear that he was expressing his opinion, not speaking for others. Take this to pm if you must both of you and get back on topic.

Fair dos Fire-Sprite. I'm not in the mood to ruin a thread by getting into minute, semantic bitch fighting with you. I agree that knowledge is not wishy washy, but I beleive that a lot of what people believe to be knowledge is actually bull <snip>.

Amylyi, just make sure you research it well, and look at a wide range of sources, modern and traditional, before making your mind up. Above all, be decerning (sp?). Enjoy your journey.

mike

Michael! naughty!

Thank you, Fortuna.

Rest assured that I am looking at all websites, authors and books suggested to me, and attempting to analyse them as thoroughly as I can.

I have exams coming up in the next few months, so I'll probably have to put the research on hold for a little while, but will definitely take it up again once the exams are finished.

Sounds like you're approaching this very sensibly. Good luck in your exams and good luck with your research. Feel free to throw questions at us all if there are things you need to mull over.

BB

Mike

Hi, you do not have to be trained by a tribal Shaman, it wouldnt make a lot of sense anyway as you dont live in a Tribal culture, dependent on Jungles, etc for food, etc.
The version of Shamanism / Animism you would practice would be relevant to the Country in which you live, as it is a modern Western one, it will in some ways be harder to learn and make sense of!
However, it is generally assumed that all the REAL Shaman are trained by the Spirits, in many Cultures it is considered Suicidal to ignore their call.
In this Country, you would be more likely to have some sort of mental Breakdown.
However that was not the question!
Books I would recommend, read lots of good ones about Nature, learn to identify your Trees and some important Plants, eat some wild food, read some Ray Mears, read and study books on Psychology and Gestalt Counseling.
Mathews book is a nice idea, but more just a rework of some OBOD Druid stuff.
Read about Animals native to your Country, then relate them to the Totem Animal & Power Animal work available, its mainly Native American, but we both share many of the same Northern Hemisphere creatures.
You will be your own best Teacher and Worst Enemy, Question things always, ask for proof, in hamanism you are allowed! Spend time in the Woods, its not an armchair Tradition.
Books: I obviously recommend my own, but its not in print yet!
'Lame Deer - Seeker of Visions' by John 'Fire' Lamedeer & Richard Erdoes (autobiographical)
'Entering the Circle' by Olga Kharitidi (semi autobiographical)
'Riding Windhorses' by Sarangerel (Mongolian Shamanism)
'Chosen by the Spirits' by Sarangerel (Mongolian Shamanism)
'Shamanic Experience' by Kenneth Meadows (if you liked 'Celtic Shamanism' you will love this!)
'The Way of the Shaman' by Michael Harner (a classic)
'Witchcraft - a tradition renewed' by Evan John Jones & Doreen Valiente

Also read lots of Folklore, Mythology and Historical Books.
Hope that helps!

I don't think its possible to fully recreate ancient, or historical shamanism, etcept for where it is still aliving tradition. I also agree that the best thing to do is to take the teachings, method, whatever you want to call it and apply it to the landscape around you.

Read some really intresting stuff on Urban Shamanism, as not all of us are lucky enough to live out in the countryside, though I have been lucky enough in my past. I do find that my work and practice becomes more urbanised and ruralised depending on where I live, but then I guess what you make and what you practice with are generally made from your immediate surroundings, I don't think it makes it any more right or wrong, after all you are using what is around you.

Hi Amilyi

why do you believe "shamanism is the path for me" ?

I ask because the reality of shamanism can be like the reality of being a junior doctor. "What, I have to work a 100 hour week?" Well, not quite, but you get the idea.

It's more a case the spirits pick the person than the person chooses the path. But that said, there are plenty of cases in the literature where someone has chosen the path and then been accepted by the spirits. In fact I have a friend who did that (I couldn't see why) and was then 2 years later crying to me she couldn't get a normal night's sleep any more because she was always "dragged off doing stuff".

There's a big difference between using shamanistic techniques to experience otherworld realities - which might be your calling and is a perfectly valid thing to do in itself - and going half mad being made to do things by otherworld entities who don't bother explaining stuff to you half the time.

You may find it more fruitful going through the OBOD training and pursuing an animistic approach to life. Or do as some other posters have suggested and use drumming/whatever to reach an altered state. The late Joe Wilson had some good writings on his site http://www.1734-witchcraft.org/ covering some of these.

You should realise that organisations like Eagle's Wing are on the "hit list" of some Native American rights people.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congr...134/spirit.html
http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/war.html

I'm not sure this helps. Well, you asked and I (not a shaman, thank the whatevers) answered.

Regards, Peter

Here is my advice if you're interested in a shamanic style path:

The word Shamanism is used to refer to a large range of practices across many different tribes and countries. As a result of this there is no "right way" to do it. One person's Shamanic experiances are just as valid as the next. The places and spirits we encounter are our brain's interpretation of things that cannot be understood any other way, so they come to different people in different forms based on our own experiance and cultural ideas. Because of this I personally feel it's not always benificial to recieve training from someone from a very different culture to your own. This can lead to an exoticisation of it, and an idea that something is more "authentic" because it comes from a different culture to one's own, when really anyone has the potential to use shamanic techniques and it's vital to put it into your own cultural framework.

The other thing I'd say is trust your own experiance. Having someone as a guide to get you started and help you out along the way is helpful, but the real teachers will be your spirit guides. Instead of waiting for someone to tell you what you should be experianceing you need to trust in yourself that you will learn what you need to. Also don't be too limited in your ideas about what you might encounter, for example recently when journeying I've been having experiances with Egyptian deities, something which isn't part of any shamanistic tradition (though the bestial nature of their gods is quite shamanistic!), but I have learnt alot from them.

I know a few people in the UK who do begginers courses in shamanic journeying, if you want details PM me and I'll send you them!

Kristofski xx

That's where being a stroppy git who ALWAYS asks questions of those entities comes in handy. Those entities I've worked with have found (ultimately) that it is best if they DO answer my questions because the work gets done much more effectively and efficiently if I am led to understand the purpose etc. Going back to the comment made about being trained by Spirit, it shouldn't be hard to figure out why asking questions is a useful thing to do. The otherworlds are not the same as this world. If you're in a foreign country and you need to travel and function effectively with the inhabitants, guidebooks are only going to get you so far. Better would be to ask the locals. (oh, and don't be brushed off. If they really want you to do something then they will acquiesce.)

BB

Mike