I have noticed recently amid the cultural backlash against the "love and lighters" that there is a complete rejection of their ideals. Authours like Konstantinos and Nocturnal Witchcraft which states that he only does rituals that use the dark energies.
Now nature as we are all told is balance, the earth has to be kept in balance or it burns its self out one way or another! As pagans, a religion that takes more than a littlle pride in its involve with nature rather than a religion where the gods and goddesses supercede nature, is this not more than a little confusing.
Just how important is balance to paganism really? Do we all copunt our blessing and tyry to fiond that many equal people to hex? Or do we try to banish as much energies as we summon? Or is it simply that our attitudes are generally more pragamatic due to our respect for the balance of nature?
Those of us who have a lord and lady perhaps you copuld state what your lord and ladies charges where. Is one a destroyer and one a creator. This point may be a little too simplistic, but when we get right down. As a people, how balanced are we really?

I don't think anybody individually can claim to be balanced or 'neutral'.

I believe that everybody to some extent will favour one side or the other; black/white, good/evil, etc. On the whole however, I think that as a group humanity is more or less balanced; e.g. For everybody who lives by parasiting off somebody else, there is a counterpart who is giving their time and effort to help others.

At times the balance may swing one way or the other, but eventually it returns to the centre.

I've always thought that there is no such thing as black or white, when it comes to humans, only shades of grey. In which case, nobody can be all 2sweetness & light" or all "darkness & evil" - we all lie somewhere on the greyscale in between. Therefore, I use both light & dark magick when I cast. I use my own personal set of ethics & pride myself on being quite a moral person, so if I'm comfortable with what I'm doing, be it healing or cursing, i'll go ahead & do it.

Also, I think it has, of late, been a trend for some Pagans to focus primarily, or even exclusively, on the Lady, rather than the Lord. To me, this creates an imbalance as we all have both masculine & feminine traits within us, whatever our sex or sexual inclination. To me, to focus on one to the exclusion of the other would be denying an intrical part of myself & this could only have a detrimental effect on me in my everyday life a well as in my magickal workings. To deny one is to deny that we all have both sides within us & that, to me, is just daft. In the end, though, I think Nature strives to create its OWN balance & that if we veer too heavily one way, the world around us will do something to put us straight, whether it be through our casting (or any part of our lives) just not working out, or realising that we're missing something & putting it right ourselves.

Whether or not we acknowledge it, it's rather important to at least TRY & keep some semblance of balance, or we'll get off kilter & eventually spin out of control & fall down.

Thankyou Mabon, I hadn't linked the rising popularity of the Lady to imbalance in my head, but you have given me something else to think about!
Freebird: you are correct of course when you say that no-one can claim to be balanced or neutral, [erhaps for that we should be grateful that there are heroes and villans out there to give life some flavour!
But how important is it for pagans to try to keep balance, and as a people are we all talk?

In posting about balance, and a rejection of 'love and lighters' ideals, you have in a way answered your own query. Love and lighters reject (or seem to) anything that doesnt have love as a solution, and seems vaguely 'dark'. many love and lighters go to the extreme - that love and light is the only way. They dont allow for anger - a natural human response for instance - telling us we should infuse the situation with love and light - to rise above the 'base' emotions humans feel quite naturally, in order to be a 'better person'.

Well - sorry - but humans arent fluffy little cherubs - we FEEL - anger, jealousy, hatred, stress, anxiety etc - as well as love and compassion, sympathy, devotion, acceptance etc. That is balance. Knowing that its ok to be human - to feel and be the negative as well as the positive.

As to it being a 'cultural backlash' - which culture are you referring to ? If its the original Pagan culture of our ancestors - I doubt they even had time between surviving to even consider love and light. Their whole culture was about recognising and striving for balance. if you mean our modern culture - then in my opinion people need to be more accepting of both sides of the coin.

In relation to nature - no its not confusing. nature is a violent, agressive and dangerous thing. its not all pretty flowers and baby lambs. The elements themselves while being able to provide for us - can also take away. Life, humanity, nature - is a cycle - all of it. There is balance - for life there is death, for dark there is light, for summer there is winter, for the hunter there is the hunted, for growth there is decay. Its accepting that there is a place for all of these things in the natural order - that is balance.

So - as to its importance - its integral - it cannot be separated from Pagansim in my opinion - its not something you can have a choice about. The 'dark side' exists - and sometimes its more than neccessary - its welcome. Love and light in profusion creates IMBALANCE because it rejects the natural order of things.

Do we all count our blessings and try to find an equal number of people to hex ?? What kind of a thing is that to say ? Do you think people like myself sit there at the end of the day and think to themsleves "hmm - well, I have healthy children. my day at work went well, all the bills are paid, now then .............who can I hex to smithereens coz there's a bit of an imbalance showing through ?

I dont think so.

The very nature of hexing is re- addressing an imbalance that someone else created.

And I have already done far more in terms of healing, protections and lifting of curses and fighting psychic attacks for other people than I probably will ever hex in my entire lifetime. So, despite what some might think - I feel there's a good healthy balance there in what I do.

My female deities are both dark goddesses - my male 'deity' couldnt be more 'angelic' However - he is also a warrior - and the goddesses - both incredibly feminine.

having balance is like having a pair of scales in front of you - theres good things on one side, and bad things on the other - if you remove either one from the equation - the scales tip.

As to it being a 'cultural backlash' - which culture are you referring to ? If its the original Pagan culture of our ancestors - I doubt they even had time between surviving to even consider love and light. Their whole culture was about recognising and striving for balance. if you mean our modern culture - then in my opinion people need to be more accepting of both sides of the coin.


I was reffereing to the people who are now embracing the dark and rejecting the light, calling the L&L side naive for only seeing one side of nature and then doing the exact same thing with the dark energies. Niavety is not unique to one side, by it's own characteristics you'll find it the more extreme to any side that you go.

Do we all count our blessings and try to find an equal number of people to hex ?? What kind of a thing is that to say ? Do you think people like myself sit there at the end of the day and think to themsleves "hmm - well, I have healthy children. my day at work went well, all the bills are paid, now then .............who can I hex to smithereens coz there's a bit of an imbalance showing through ?

I dont think so.

That's what I am getting at, that's the entire point of this thread!



My female deities are both dark goddesses - my male 'deity' couldnt be more 'angelic' However - he is also a warrior - and the goddesses - both incredibly feminine.
Thank you for answering this question.

having balance is like having a pair of scales in front of you - theres good things on one side, and bad things on the other - if you remove either one from the equation - the scales tip.
Yep thats cos scales use balance though

i cant realy add on anything because moongazers beat me to it.
but what is balence,good and bad, light and dark.
nature can be nice and nasty, but only in our eyes, to itself it may be perfectly normal.
yes that lioness thats ripping that gazzele a part, to some its so cruel, buts it doing it to survive and feed it baby sweet ikle cubs so cuddley untill they grow up and rip your arm off. circle of life. (can you feel the love tonight)
and can i just add ms moongazer some plants and flowers arnt very sweet and inocent, look at the venus flytrap.
i dont think there is anything that is good and bad in natures eyes, only in our eyes does it look like that, because our brians have become to big. it just is, its neutrel. because nature is neutrel. one fluffy thing feeds another, the sweet and innocent to us can turn into a nasty at any point.
i mean look at my post.

I'm glad this topic was not the still born that i feared. Nice debate everybody!
Now pagans, who are going on about the importance of balance, do they live this or not, and if we live it how should we live it?
Moongazer gave a parfect example in the earlier post!
I'm enjoying this discussion.

Of course not every individual person can be perfectly balanced. Some people try for the middle, but there are people who tend more towards the dark, and others who tend more towards the light. And I think, in the scheme of things, it all balances out.

I tend to agree with Kali, and go even further. I think that overall, as a group, Pagans (or any other group for that matter) will have people who are on one extreme (eg. light and love), and that will bring out people equally extreme at the other end. So even though the individuals are not balanced, the overall group comes out with a balanced view. I don't think this is any different to any other area where you have a spectrum of views (religious belief, political belief, etc.)

Balance is a crucial aspect of vodou and is seen most plainly in the structure of the pantheon. Two of the major groups of loa are the rada and the petro. Rada spirits are generally even-tempered and benevolent, referred to as the "cool" loa. The petro group are often hot tempered, energetic, and sometimes aggressive. These are sometimes called the "hot" loa. They balance each other out.

It's not as simplistic as rada=good and petro=bad; it's a question of calling on the most appropriate deity for the need at hand. Also, many spirits have decidely human aspects to their personality that mke them very rounded figures.

In fact many of the loa are paired, with an equivalent spirit in rada and petro. Erzulie Freda, for example is the rada spirit of love, beauty and creativity. She's loving and generous but at the same time can be jealous and vain. Her petro equivalent, Erzulie Dantor is strong, maternal and protective of those she loves but can also be highly aggressive and vengeful.

Their binary opposition continues in their appearance and the symbols associated with them. Freda is white, Dantor is black. Freda wears pastel colours; pink, white and pale blue while Dantor is associated with red, blue and gold. Freda's symbol is the heart, Dantor's is the heart pierced by a knife. For altar and food offerings Freda likes delicate iced cakes, champagne, cocktails, delicate, expensive foods. Dantor likes strong rum, grilled pork with lots of black pepper and cakes with strong coloured blue and gold icing. Freda's Catholic counterpart is the weeping madonna, Dantor's is the black madonna with the scarred face.

The third group, the Gede, are the embodiment of balance in the natural order. They are associated with death, but also with sex; both in terms of recreation ;-) and procreation. Baron, for example, is both the ruler of the dead and the protector of living children, and is himself as famed for his filthy sense of humour and highly erotic dancing as he is for his funeral appearance in his top hat and tailcoat.

Well, I try to be good & sweet & nice, but I'm afraid my own, secret nature tends towards the darker, nastier things - LOL. I suppose there's a kind of balance in trying to over-ride my own natural nasty tendancies. Nobody can be in total harmony & balance with everything else - just think what a hard task that kind of balancing act would be! You'd have to be constantly shifting your centre to counteract things pulling you from different directions. No, I think the best balance probably comes from acknowledging & accepting that we all have good & bad, light & dark within us, & letting it sort itself out.

It is generally accpeted that people generally aren't in balance in their personality. But I'm wondering should we try to achieve balnce in our selves our in our society. As Faith and Kali said maybe in our society we have jusdt struck enough balance that in a way it doesn't matter as nature may have "fail-safes" built in to it, incase things go one way.
I would like to update the point I made earlier about people now exclusively going to the dark, I would like to say that I find them worse thanthe love and lighters. Not because they are choosing to use the darker energies. But because what they are stating is that "It is niave to look at one side only! Therefore we shall look at the opposite side only."
No I'm sorry, but recognising that one-sidedness is a problem and then choosing to be one sided is extremely hypocritical.
Just my point of view.

Personally I have always believed that is balance neccesary, but in the scheme of world balance, I am too small to be able to try and 'put it all right'

If something bad happens to me, does that mean that something good will happen to balance it, or is the bad thing that happens to me part of a greater 'good' that is balancing a bigger evil?

I don't think i will ever grasp true balance, as I can never really see a true good and evil. That might sound a little strange but I mean so many things that happen can be good to some and bad to others etc, it is more that every action is neautral, and has either a good or bad effect on individuals.

I will stop now, for fear of rambling nonsense!

EDIT: Spelling

An interesting point about our ideal of balance, Badger. If it is personal is it something that we will ever strive for. Our ideal to try to be, but that is unachieveable? And if so for what reason?
Crow: I know very little about voodou and so thankyou for adding a new perspective onto the entire balance part of it.
But is balance a personal ideal or a societal one. Look at badgers post that assumes that balance is internal, and about a person or a soul. Kali and faith appear to be talking about balance in the external case.
This area is bigger than can be thought possible, I'm guessing.