Ick, crap title but it's hard to summarise what I'm asking here.

I've been, as anyone who reads my blog knows, doing a bit of work on self knowledge and then I was reading something in that Creation thread that nudged an old curiosity.

I want to know myself as well as I can, I think that's important in order to work any kind of magic and it's important to most kinds of paganism whether we practice magic or not. I've seen a lot of stuff on the boards about paganism being about becoming a better person, or the best person you can be and I'm curious as to what people really mean by that. Do you want to remove all your bad traits? Do you want to expand your good ones and add to them? I'm not at all sure I do. I just want to know what they are, as honestly and objectively as I can. If I know myself, I'm better prepared to analyse my reasons for doing things, whether I'm acting out of spite or anger or desire or whether my reasons are good enough to justify what I want to do. That's all I'm interested in.

I can't help but wonder if an innate desire to better ones self though your religion is a hangover from a basis of Christian faith which I'm lacking in. So, if you are seeking self improvement from your paganism, were you raised in a Christian faith?

For me personally, no I dont want to shed any of those traits, I want to be able to understand them and accept them all. they are a part of me and as such I should be happy to accept them all, good and bad. Christianity didn't seem to be compatible with that, the negative traits weree seen as being bad, yet they are a natural part of me. Paganism offered a way of accepting both the good and bad traits, and once we can understand that and fully accept that we can be a better person.

I'm not saying that is all paganism is about, or why I turned to it, there are other reasons. but that is one of the main ones for me, the total acceptance of who I am. I do have problms accepting who I am but I suppose we all do in one way or other but paganism has provided me with a way of beginging the process of acceptance

Blimey!

Okay, well, for me at any rate, Paganism is not a different way of improving myself, it really is something I didn't/don't have any choice over. I'm a polytheist and animist - it's kind of a done deal. And the magick part is really peripheral. So there's no idea for me that because I'm drawn to any kind of religion that it's partly through a desire for self-knowledge or improvement. I just am, that's all. Now, if I were Bhuddist, then I'd probably give a different answer!

My gods demand utter and absolute honesty from me - because they force me to stand exposed and without camouflage before them. They can see through the b/s so I don't get much option really! Maybe it's different from the Xtian god, where there doesn't seem for most people, to be quite so "personal" a relationship, that it's easier to hide. That's just my own observation though. So I have to look at the good and the bad because to try and disguise would earn me a kick up the backside At the end of the day, I am who I am, good and bad. I have searched myself often and enough to see myself, and situations, with clarity.



Aye. I like that and I agree.

Don't know about improving myself, I'm quite happy being me with all my flaws. Life would be so boring if we were all perfect

My object?

My object isn't either created, fueled, or reliant upon paganism. It simply sits very comfortably alongside it.

My object I suppose is terribly cliched; to live my life well, to do as little harm as possible to both people and my surroundings, to do good where I can again in respect of both people and my surroundings and of course to learn and progress as much as I can whilst I'm here. (OK you can go and vomit now )

The self honesty that you describe, the self searching, the attempts to progress are all just the aids that I find to be essential in order to achieve my object.

I entirely agree that self honesty and self knowledge play an undeniably and hugely important part in our lives, but I also feel that they too, are aids to progression and therefor also aids toward meeting the object.

I also feel that the progression of self knowledge and honesty work in parallel with the progression of our other life goals, the self improvements and the the "bettering" of ourselves. I don't feel that we have to complete the exercise in self honesty and self knowledge before we can address those other goals.I feel that they can all work in conjuction with each other and simultaneously provided that we don't fail in our continual re-assessments of ourselves and possibly a continued modification of behavior where neccessary. Again, an area that we often fail in but should never fail to continue to attempt. Of course there may be times in our lives when we might need to concentrate more on some aspects of our progression than others, self knowledge and self honesty being a good example. I see them as a part of our progression though rather than in any way halting it.

Of course, personally, I also know that I fail to meet my object as often as I succeed but the challenge of life, for me at least, is in the continued attempts to meet the object. To never give up.

Why do I call myself pagan?

Paganism is merely the label that describes as well as any, the nature of my innate connection to my surroundings combined with my own innate and undeniable spirituality. Other headings; christianity, Islam, Seikhism, and the rest don't describe my spirituality and earth connection at all, buddhism, shinto and taoism possible come a little closer, but paganism is what comes closest to describing it.

Personally my paganism has little to do with any attemts to improve myself, it merely sits alongside those attempts and seems to be fairly compatable with them.

I was raised in a christian faith.
That christianity forced me to question my existence and their explanations of it.
I even tried for a brief time to deny my own spirituality but was unable to do that.
I came to apply the label "paganism" to my spirituality as it comes closest to being compatible with that spirituality

My object is fairly simple.
The aids toward achieving my object are often difficult to practice.
My spirituality plays a strong part in informing my decisions.
Paganism describes my spirituality better than any other label.
My object and my paganism seem to be very compatible.
I cannot ever give up the attempt to achieve "my object" regardless of how many times I fail. That, for me, is both the challenge and the purpose of my life.

I did say it was a crap title Dave! The content was more important than the title.

See now, like Herne, I'm not interested in progression or betterment as I said. I can't help but see it as terribly depressing way to live one's life, to live with a constant sense of your own inadaquacy and be always striving to reach some self imposed ideal which isn't really you. I'm seeking simply to be at peace with who I am. It really does appear that this Christian God is never satisfied, we will never be good enough for him, just as well I'm not interested in pleasing him really! I like the idea of Pomonas Gods, who it seems love her for who she is and won't accept any attempt to be confronted with a fake or idealised version of herself. I wasn't really asking you to explain why you class yourself as pagan, just what you thought it meant in relation to this issue and whether a christian upbringing influences that. I think you answered that too, thanks.

How about seeing it as a way of accepting yourself, flaws and all, rather than trying to improve or change what's there? The first step to making oneself a better person is to truly love and accept oneself (sounds fluffy, so bite me) and if your faith helps you do that then good.

Title seems fine to me, it's got to be better than my title for the creation thread It really doesn't need to be viewed in that light, it can rather be viewed as an acceptance of our imperfection incorporating a little self forgiveness for our failures without losing sight of "the object" or giving up on our attempts to meet that objectbut the ideal is to meet "the object" whilst at the same time remaining completely true to ourselves via that very system of self knowledge, honesty and assessment that you describe. There's no suggestion whatsoever of needing to do anything that isn't "really me" in order to meet the object. Meeting "the object" by being any other than completely true to and honest with ourselves, I simply don't see as an honest option and therefor no option at all.

Isn't the quest for self knowledge and self honesty a "betterment" in itself?

Betterment isn't "the object". "The Object" remains static, self improvement is little more than a consequence of the attempt to meet "the object".

The self knowledge and self honesty for me is probably one of the most important tools that we have towards meeting "the object".

I see the various aids that we use toward meeting the object, including the quest for self knowledge and self honesty as all being complimentary to each other and to automatically resulting in self improvement even though self improvement in itself is not our goal; our object. Self improvement seems to me to be simply an automatic, unlooked for and unintended but not neccessarily unworthy or unwelcomed by-product of our attempts to meet our object. I really see no need to see self progression and improvement as a bad thing provided that it is never at the cost of others. What is "learning" if it isn't progression, the application of "learning" can often be translated into improvement or "betterment", I see no evil in that.

For me; to have "self knowledge" and "self honesty" as the only object seems to be self polarising. I think that we need to be quite careful in not allowing "self searching" to develop into "self obsession". I feel that we need to find a balance between "self" and "others". I'm certain that sometimes, not always, just sometimes, we can gain far more and find more contentment by giving to others than we can in looking only inwards, I'm sure that sometimes, we can gain much by looking outwards too. I look around and see so many inwardly looking and incidentally unhappy people around me; at work, amongst my friends and in so many people that I meet, I have to question the balance or possibly inbalance of "self" and "others" that some of them seem to have achieved.

We just need to find the right balance of "self" and "others". A balance that I often fail to find but a balance that I still seek to achieve. I generally find some of the greatest givers to be amongst the happiest of people that I know whilst some of the most inwardly looking people are amongst the unhappiest, an old cliche I know but one that I find to be true. I see myself as a very small part in a much bigger world, a world that I can interact with fluidly and compatibly rather than in any way separating myself from if I can only get the balance of self and others correct. The finding of that balance is, for me, a fundemental part of the path toward meeting my object.

I feel that if we have self knowledge and self honesty as our only object then we may run the risk not only of losing sight of the needs of others and what I feel to be a neccessary balancing of the needs of ourself and others, of our small place in the bigger picture, but also of becoming too self polarised and possibly frustrated and miserable as individuals as a result. Whilst we have to be honest with ourselves we can also be a little forgiving of ourselves too, provided that forgiveness never becomes complacency.

For me, all of that is integral to meeting "my object":Blimey, fetch the bucket.

As with many things in life; balance seems to be the key.

To me at least.

Go with all the above. I call myself a pagan because that's what I've always been, even if I didn't know there was a name for it until quite a way down the line.

My goal is for self knowledge and self-honesty which is the hardest thing in the world. Everyone puts up screens to mask things they don't want to admit even to themselves. I need to know my dark side in order to check instant reactions that are motivated by impulses I want to supress, that I think of as negative, that I wouldn't like in other people.

To Will - To Dare - To Know - To Be Silent - these are the four principals I am working on which will be a life long study. And I agree with the comments on xian habit - I was obliged to go to churches and I objected strongly to saying "and there is no health in us" - I thought even then, I am seven years old for crying out loud - what can I have done that is that bad?

Psychologically - giving people impossible tasks is counter productive - never being able to live up to expectations produces emotionally cracked people.

I think that before you can understand yourself...and others, one should understand that there is no such thing as perfection. People who are perfectionist are constantly in a state of stress. Sure, you should strive to do your best but know your limitations. That is a part of knowing yourself too.

Faults such as getting angry, being spiteful is part and parcel of who we are. It's how we handle it that makes us a better person and we have all done things that when we think back on them, are embarrassed.

Another thing that makes us who we are is our past, how we feel about ourselves based on what has happened. One of the things I've learned is that regret generally is a useless emotion. It happened, you felt bad, learn from it and forget it. We can't go back into the past to undo so why worry about it? Some people have a long list of past complaints and this affects their lives in they retain anger or hold grudges. This type of thing only hurts the individual in the long run.

I think that is what Paganism has done for me. It has made me think about the world at large and our part in it. That we all are in it together and are connected to one another. To set priorities that go beyound other people, to see myself based on myself rather than the opinions of others.(O.k, now I'm getting sappy)

I think (well, kind of: brain's a bit fogged today), that one of the main differences which this thread has made me think about, is the difference between the way we as pagans deal with our personalities, and the way Xtians do (singling out Xtianity since that was mentioned in the intitial post).

We accept our faults, and answer to ourselves for them. We don't apologise to anyone for them, we make a decision as to how we are going to deal with them, either trying to change them (and ourselves) or using those faults to perhaps a better end. With Xtianity there's a real feeling of unworthiness, apology for the faults, a striving to eradicate them - for no other real purpose than to make the person more "acceptable" to Jesus etc. With Paganism there's no-one to "forgive" us, bestow divine absolution if we're penitent enough, we're expected to take personal responsibility for ourselves. (I have no idea if any of that makes sense!)

Yes it does Pomona and it was in an exhortation that was used in an initiation for me and I have tried to live by.

as far as I'm concerned Paganism is a description of what I am and not something I set out to be - admittedly it took 30 odd years for me to work that out....

For me studying paganism isn't for my self improvement, its for my understanding of the world.

Healing is my way of improving myself.

My object I guess is rather than to better myself as a person (which is still important to me and I would be lying if I said otherwise) is to actually accept who I am...I was brought up Xtian and I gotta be honest it really bugged me going to confession to be let away with my 'sins'...rather than accept them I feel Xtians just try and absolve them...to me that is not a way to learn...oh I will go do this then go to confession and everything will be ok again! that doesnt work for me...I know I can be a bitch but that is just part of me and a part that I think is in everybody

...I just want to accept who I am learn from my mistakes and try to help myself become a more spiritual person...this also stems from my belief of reincarnation in the sense that I am here to learn lessons before i can progress onto my next life, and to do this i feel i need to gain equality within myself and the only way i feel i can learn is to follow the path I feel that was chosen for me ..... paganism

I just feel a more whole person being a pagan as Im not denying myself of my beliefs...if this means im trying to better myself then why not? its works for me

interesting topic by the way its got me re-evaluating myself...when I was asked this question 3 years ago my reply was to gain all knowledge! shows me how far Ive come...to realise this isnt going to happen in this lifetime

Same here. The xtian thought of being full of sin really annoys me. I believe we all have the power to be good or bad and its down to us to choose the right path/ action etc. I feel that being a pagan gives me more responsibility for my growth, its not down to someone saying this is how it should be, this is how you should think, this is who you should be. Freedom- I am free to think, grow and make my own decisions spiritualtiy. Also now I have been following this path for a few years and reading and trying diferent things, I feel more confident, happier in myself that I have faults and I am not to blame for these but there are things I can do to put these right if I want to ( although these faults are what makes me who I am and make me me, so why change them ?) After all, do as you will as long as it harms none.

Oooh... that's another WHOLE lotta topic of debate!

Pagan is just the best way for me to describe the way I feel and think about things - the way I am.
Being pagan does seem to make you look at yourself objectively, and while I agree you should accept yourself for the person you truly are, warts and all, I think that to just accept that all the things you don't like about yourself will always be there is a bit of a cop out.
I don't think trying to be the best person you can be is a Christian thing, unless you're trying to be that kind of person because 'God' wants you to, or it says in the bible you should etc. I mean, I agree you shouldn't steal so I don't but that's because that's my idea of something that makes a good person; the fact that it's a commandment or whatever is by the by.
So I think for me, while bettering myself isn't my objective for being pagan, I do think it's helping me do that, because I'm thinking more, and being more honest with myself. But to acknowledge the not so good things about me just means that they are things I should try to work on a bit...just the way I see it.

And my family are so un-religious I got myself Christened at the age of 11 as a way to rebel!!!
(And never went to church again )

Wow some topic!! and fab responses! Do I want to better myself by virtue of being pagan? erm no I would say that I have been more able to accept myself inside and out since turning to my path some 15 years ago. Being brought up in a manse I was brought up as xtian and with that brought obligation, self denial, a mask for the masses and a level of inherent dishonesty that I ultimately rejected. I am not capable at this hour of writing any more deeply than that

Goals in life: firstly, to avoid pain and discomfort; secondly, to find pleasure and comfort; thirdly, to find the best way through the inevitable pain and discomfort.

This motivates everything I do. I keep love and light at the centre of my consciousness because they make me feel good. I reject the guilt concept because it makes me feel bad. I joined this site because I seek contact with like-minded individuals, in particular I suppose I am after validation of myself (approval) and instruction to help me perfect my modus operandi.

I have always had the aim in life of finding out what I'm here for. Most of the time I have seen this as involving getting advice from higher beings such as God, gods/goddesses, angels, and assorted discarnate entities who channel wisdom. I always wanted a hotline to Spirit. However, I haven't got one yet, and my aim has shifted towards finding out how to build that hotline. It may well take the rest of my life.

Now here I am subscribing to a pagan website, not because I think about being a pagan, but because I find others who think of themselves as pagan are some of the most interesting people around.

My goals; To survive. Keep it simple and work at it day by and the rst will follow.
But has being a pagan inadvertendly bettered me: maybe! I became oagan when I was a teenager, and so it could just be me natuarlly maturing as I'm now in my early twenties ( right on the line, come novemeber, for what I would classify as mid-twenties).
I find that I'm able to evluate and see beyond what's at the surface, but then that's not necessarrily anything reliant on paganism!
I guess I have no goals?

I really don't see total acceptance of oneself as a cop out! I can understand that at first glance it may appear that way but I'm not talking about just blithely shrugging and saying 'ah well, I'm a bitch but what can you do? Sod the rest of you' It's a much harder, much deeper and much darker process.

To utterly evaluate yourself and recognise that your good aspects work in harmony with the bad, that the balance you are seeking is in fact already in existance is an incredibly difficult thing to do. The side of yourself that can be viewed as negative often is the side that protects you and makes you stronger, seeing it clearly helps you to allow that side of you, always in balance with the other to get through life. It's not about giving yourself carte blanche to act anyway you like with impunity, indeed when done right it can make you very very catious about your every action because you know why you're doing it! It should make you consider how your action affect everyone else and know that you are doing what you're doing for the best reasons you can.

Viewed in that way, I suppose it's possible to say that blindly striving to deny the counterpoints of your personality and remove them rather than face them and live with them is the actual cop out

Thanks for all the replies guys, this has been really interesting.

I've heard this by people who react better to what I call "paganism for psych student" reffered to as using the 'shadow-self'. The shadow self being mainly made up of peoples repressions etc can be source of tremendous energy for workings. But it takes a lot of introspection and acceptance of the self that is denied. Not an easy thing.

A book I am reading at the moment on this very subject of introspection and embracing the darker aspects of the self is "Dark Moon Mysteries: Wisdom, Power, and Magic of the Shadow World by Timothy Roderick"

it is a good read kind of a fusion of Witchcraft and Jungian psychology sugesting that once we embrace the darker aspects of ourselves we can become more spiritually enlightened. if you want to read some reviews check out this page on Amazon Dark Moon Mysteries

Yes true, but that's assuming that that is the case. I've met many people whose bad aspects are definitely not in harmony with the good! Not everybody does already have a state of balance going on.
If the negative things serve purposes and enhance your life, then they are obviously already in balance and not something you need to work on. To me, negative aspects are things which don't enhance your life. Or that enhance your life at the expense of others.

I just find it hard to believe that there are that many people who could look at themselves that deeply and come out with the conclusion that there are no aspects of themselves that they could do with working on, that's all.

Mind you....I am a bit of a perfectionist at times...and a nit-picker...and argumentative...

Another good read - Your Dark Side - Vivienne Crowley - use the negative side of your Self positively.

Ah well Pebble, I can only speak for what I'm aiming at! Could be a lifetimes work but I've gotta try.

I got asked once what I got out of being pagan. I was completely stumped. It's like asking me what I get out of having a second kidney, or a second lung. It's part of me, part of my life, part of my outlook on the world. Big part, too. Could I cope without it? Erm, yeah, I guess. I could do without a second kidney or a second lung too, but I'm a lot happier and function better with the full set.

Those who ask why you're pagan, or what you want to get out of it, or what your intent is in being pagan - to me, they're the ones who totally misunderstand what my spirituality and religion is all about. It's not about what I get, not some massive bribery system (be good and you can go to heaven). I didn't wake up one day and think "oh, I know, I'll be pagan for a bit, that'll get me x, y and z". It's about honesty, and taking delight in simple things, and learning, and being me, just as hard as I can.

Thanks for this great track. I really made me think and brought me one step closer to self-knowledge (if complete knowledge can ever be achieved).

For most of the 28 years I have been on this planet, my main goal was to aquire knowlegde which could be used for further personal development. Introspection as been an ongoing (probably never completed) journey.
Accepting yourself, both good and bad, is very liberating but should (in my view) never be used as an excuse to stagnate. However
making mistakes is part of the journey and should be seen like this and not as a failure.

I have been raised catholic because of tradition. Neither of parents goes to church apart from the off wedding or funeral. Neither have I for that matter. Regardless of this I have always been religous in some way. Christians probably would say I was not one them. The correct and wrong at the same time. From childhood I always had the feeling that all religions are all the same. The only differences are cultural and human based. Having said that, I have never believed in human controlled interpretations of the religions anyway.

This is one of my reasons of being to paganism. No human is dictating on how you should view religion. At the end of the day, I only have to answer to the Power(s) that be.

Reflection, or as christian might call it confessing your sins, is for me a way of getting to grips with myself rather than asking for forgiveness. I am sure that the Power(s) that be have better things to do. At the end of the day, I am my worst judge.