ok so within a working group you need some kind of hierarchy!
and to some extent it shows the amount of work you have done!
but this varies from group to group so are they really as valid as they seem?

but probably one of the worst things about rank...

is when people throw it around! in my experience with ppl the ones who are truly deserving of their rank are the one who know their stuff but never push it in other ppls faces and try their best to help others along the path!

any thoughts ppl?

I think there's a big difference betwen rank and knowledge. Rank is often granted by a priesthood after a period of intensive study and initiation and it's very very wrong for someone who hasn't gone through this to portray themself as having achieved that rank.

Leadership of a magical working or a ritual is different - I have no problems deferring to someone who's more knowledgable than I am about a certain type of magic when in a ritual setting.

My advice is that if you don't like the dynamics of certain group - leave.

you? who? i take it thats your general synopsis? rather than at something/someone in particular?

I think that the magical rank could be imporatnt within a very strict set of settings.
1. If everyone there/present etc works under the same system
2. If heirarchy is actually needed ( settling disputes etc)
3. If the roles of each rank are adaquately spelled out
These three are all I can think of just now, but within a given setting, let's call it an order for no particular reason.
*the following is purely theoretical*
Within this order there may be rank given out to help those that are new know who's in the know, if yer know what I mean. Alsothe duties may be set depending upon order. The higher the rank maybe the less practical work you do, but you make sure the machine as whole works without too much fuss, and all that join feel comfortable, know the rules etc.
I can see a place for them within certain settings, but I don't think they are strictly needed by all.

In the general sense yes. As in "if a person doesn't like" or "if one doesn't like."

Who would I aiming that against, Frater? Only you and I have posted in this thread so far and you haven't been in attendance at the group rituals I've been to.

(edited to wave at givenup who posted while I was writing my reply Not ignoring you, don't worry! )

grades etc are only applicable when recognised within the structure of a specific group.

Outside of a closed group it doesn't matter who you are or what level of experience people have as long as they show respect in their postings. If someone does know more than someone else there is nothing to stop them from sharing this knowledge, but if the group concerned does not recognise levels and grades etc then any such grades they have in other groups are of little value.

for example - within the Valley we have a number of really clued up people, some belong to other groups, covens, brotherhoods, hearths etc and may well have some ranking there but within the Valley they are no more or less important than a newbie.

hmmm i suppose its all in the phrasing...

ok... for example! if you have 2 covens each run by a 3rd degree witch,
these 2 witches participate in a joint working...
who is the superior?

i would say nether!

ok lets say one of them is older by a few years and has also been studying the craft longer than the other!
who is the superior?

i would say nether!

the only time i see grades having any sway is in the group you gained them and for your own personal gratification/achievement!





but it would still be nice to hear other ppls veiws on this!

They aren't the slightest bit important to me, but then I don't participate in magical groups. I have found as I've met and known people over the years that sometimes the most knowledgable people are often the last ones you ought to pay any attention to, those who claim and shout about their knowledge by terms of ranks and years spent studying especially so.

Personally, I couldn't give a damn about magical grades/ranks, I will give my respect to those who give good, intelligent advice without all the I the grand, high poobah of such and such, I know some very knowledgeable high priestesses but you would never know that they are because they never say that they are or act as though they should be in charge, I also know some people who have not been studying magic at all long but ask very good questions and make you look at things in new ways.

Those who insist of titles/rank are the ones to avoid as they are not going to teach you but put you down by inferring that they have all this knowledge that you are unworthy to know, they are usually not very knowledgeable or secure in themselves.

Storm Raven

who is saying that people can't post their views here - I haven't locked the thread, I'm just giving you my view.

Noooo i dident mean it to sound like that! SORRY Cosmic_Fool

i ment it to more to be like... so what are other ppls veiws on this?

I personally dont belong to any group...one reason being I dont particuarly like grading, I think those who say IM SUCH AND SUCH (whatever they may be) are the type I tend to avoid...I do really dislike it when people start throwing rank around as they sound too 'fluffy' for my liking and I really dont care what grade someone is as im not interested in 'power' Im more interested in hearing what people have learnt and what there veiws are, it doesnt matter to me whether they are a priestess, adept, newbie etc as every person has something they can teach to another...even if you dont like the lessons

frazer, mr. impatient!! lol, you just posted this today, give people a chance, to post!

Grades, in magick.. UGH..

I think you said it well, the truly magickal, knowledgable people, are quiet and don't shout what they know..(irl) but not on the boards.. LOL.

Now, I know why I'm not in a coven.. soooooo Not a follower and sooooo
NOT Impressed by titles!! Ugh!

Anyone can pass certain tests.. but what is their INTENT.. their real GOALS?

to teach... or to preach~ ego trip..~ ..to dominate.. control?

I just think, that it'd be really really hard to find a coven, that truly likes and gets along well.. not to mention, agrees on most things.

I've seen too many forums/sites, go into these ego/ witch wars.. which are sooooooo Not fun!

I like forums, bc I can read and make my own opinions, about people..

Chat is esp cool, bc then you definately "feel" the vibes, alot of the time..

irl.. the most knowledgable teachers, aren't standing out in a crowd, shouting
hey here I am!.. they'll be there quietly and attract someone who is really sincerely searching.. and ready.. imo

Blessings
Whisperedwind

I think grades and titles are only relevant within the group they are used in, or other similar working groups - I'm thinking in particular for practitioners of ceremonial magic and the like. However, having the grand high poobar of the esoteric dawn (for example) trying to tell a solitary hedgewitch what to do is likely to end up with him nursing his balls in an icepack - it's not something that is easily transferrable between paths and practices! It also works the other way - if some cheeky upstart in the group is dicking around and showing off, having a hierarchy that can come down like a ton of bricks on said cheeky upstart and put him in his place is ever so useful.

However, not being a witch who works well with others, I'm not well placed to comment much further on this. I think there's a place for hierarchy within group working, whether its a coven or a magical order or whatever you want to call yourselves. Grading, if applied honestly and properly, shows that you've gone through certain tasks, trials, whatever, and should be respected within your particular group, but is not a way of showing that someone is better than another person. Respect needs to be earned, as do grades and titles.

Have to agree with El - if they're not earned, titles are meaningless. I've often compared titles to being beautiful - you can call yourself as beautiful as you like but unless other people consider you beautiful then you're only fooling yourself.

I remember one Witchfest a couple of years ago, when I was sat in a group consisting entirely of 3* Wiccans. None of them made me feel less, inferior or stupid, they were all friendly people, with no delusions of grandeur, but they did have a confidence in their abilities and in who they were, without having to display rank openly.

Amongst the pagans I know most people who boast about rank are met with everything from mild amusement to derision, depending on how well liked they are as a person. Funnily enough, the ones who brag about rank loudest are usually those with no claim to the title. If you want to falsely claim membership of the OTO, Golden Dawn or an illustrious Elder as your HPS, make sure you're not talking to anyone who can check out those claims

bb
Rhiannon

I agree that grades & titles are really only relevant within the individual group (not even the individual tradition) that uses them. Given that most working groups, covens included, usually have oaths of secrecy, it always feels a bit strange to hear people talking about the titles they hold, or claim to hold, within such groups. As several folk have already observed, the wisest and most impressive practitioners tend to be rather quiet and unobtrusive people, and often regard themselves as 'still seeking' even after thirty or more years on their path.

Hierarchy within a working group, AFAIK, always seems to be a much more complicated business than can be covered by any single system of ranking. People who are very knowledgeable & expert ritual practitioners may not necessarily be very good at organising things so that everybody shows up at the same time in the same place. For that matter, knowing something and being able to teach it effectively do not necessarily go together. Most of the stable working groups I know, though mostly having some form of hierarchy, actually seem to operate on the basis of different folk with different skills taking responsibility for different aspects of what the group does. For that matter, while most covens operate along generally hierarchical lines, there are some that work very effectively as 'circles of equals'.

BB,

John Macintyre

Fabulously expressed missus

A newbie of merely one day to the pagan path would have my respect if they had earned it, as would someone who had walked it 50 years if they had earned it. Attitude is crucial to me. Aggression, wild claims and arrogance don't earn my respect, whether the person started out last week or decades ago. I would not dismiss someone because of what they claimed to be (or in fact were), I have respect for those of other paths different to mine. I have no respect nor time however for tossers though, be they pagan or whatever. Life's too short to waste

Frater az

I would feel them to be equal, superior doesn't come into it as they both have the same qualifications. Although I imagine a few might like the personal gratification of being an HP most aren't in it for that. It should be an achievement, earned by time, experience and other more personal qualities and only achieved the proper official way. Unless of course your learnt it all from a Llewellyn book for which then you were the High Priest/ess from the second you opened the thrid page

And I'd best add I've never been in a coven nor am I wiccan either

ROFL!

BB

Mike