Here I go again with the questions!

Prompted by a few things, the HFP thread we've got going, a recurrent theme in the Pagan News forum, stuff I've heard here and else where.. Why do we need bodies such as PEBBLE?

Yes, I know who they are and what they're for but I can't say I'm aware of a wave of discrimination again Pagans in this country that would warrant a lobby group. The people I meet day to day would be hard pressed to know what I meant by Pagan, nevermind have any heartfelt hatred against it.

Christian groups protesting outside a PF conference or something is NOT discrimination. No more than CND protesting outside Faslane Naval base are discriminating against the workers there. It's a protest, which the law gives them the right to do just as we are welcome to protest against them (should that be your idea of a good time)

The arguement for carrying great big swords around has been covered before, not least in Thunarr's Heathenism rant and I have to say I agree with him that there's absolutely no need for it, I can't think why we would want to get that allowed.

Someone intimitading you because you are Pagan is discriminatory but we have laws already to protect us from that, I'm unclear on what PEBBLE type groups could do to improve this.

Much of the time claims from Pagan that a misfortune that has befallen them or a decision made against them is a result of religious discrimination smacks of the ridiculous and there seems to be a lot of assumption and 'I wouldn't be surprised if' about them rather than any actual substantiated evidence.

Of course, perhaps I'm just very fortunate not to have experienced any of these apparent problems but it really does seem that most of the problem is in people's heads and when I see real discrimination against people I have to say I have little sympathy for those who seem to want to find prejudice simply so they have something to jump and down about.

I'm really not trying to offend anyone, I'm sure lots of pagans do face discrimination but not in a way that can't be dealt with by existing laws so I really don't see the need for this sort of thing.

Well, firstly, I don't know how much Pebble is going to be involved in Scotland as there seems to be (from other e-groups etc I'm on) a general consensus that bodies such as the PF in Scotland render it almost redundant. Regardless what your (ie, one's) personal view of the PF etc is.

Why is it (PF/Pebble) etc necessary? In my view to promote acceptance. So that, in Scotland, for example, Pagans who wish to have a legally binding handfasting can now do so. So that Pagan beliefs can be taught in schools. So that at work someone who wants to take time off for a sabbat etc can do so without their bosses getting iffy about goat sacrifices etc. So that, basically, Paganism can be considered just as valid, just as "normal" as other religions. I know that it can be argued that discrimination laws etc do a pretty thorough job of covering most bases, but I would like to see it just accepted without question that being Pagan doesn't mean you're any more weird than if you said you were Xtian, Jewish or whatever.

I'm lucky in that I work in an environment that actively protects my rights to be openly pagan, luckier still that there's information provided on our internal internet to inform what paganism is. But I know people (and I'll bet there are a few here) who, for reasons of job security, have to conceal their pagan beliefs because, no matter what the law says, there'd be some way of ensuring a nasty time if they were open about it.

Hmmmm. That could be the gap in my understanding then, on the whole I find my paganism is regarded as considerably less weird than those who are vocal about their Christianity...

PEBBLE is there to promote understanding and acceptance of Paganism by the goverment and the various departments there in, at the moment the goverment has no unified policy or approach to dealing with Pagans at the moment.

This can be seen by the completely different attitudes of the Prison Service who are very good and the Charity Commision who currently view us a some strange cult whose members are upto no good.

The goverment won't deal with individual pagan groups on their own, so PEBBLE was created to provide representation for as wide a possible spectrum of democratically run Pagan groups as possible.

Without goverment recognition and support we are not going to see goverment departments and police forces educated about us so that we don't have to face discrimination from goverment from national level down.

We do suffer discrimination in education, either as students who have our beliefs ingnored and ridiculed or as prospective employees who the schools would employ if we were not Pagans.

Storm Raven

I can see both sides on this. The PF and PEBBLE work on *mostly* the softer stuff. Although now handfatsing is recognised which I suppose is legality or the hard stuff.
Acceptance in the work place... , we do actually get alot of holidays spread out throughout the year. I know I would be pissed off if I had to take someone else's workload and it happened pretty regularly!
But yes I do agree that most discrimination stories are a little too "oh it must be because I'm pagan"... and it used to piss me off when a friend of mine who was never discrimanated against or knew someone who was, started to get all injured over how they were treated by a christian, all he said was "can't do it that time, I'm going to church" and that was him trying to convert her apparantly. ( I only have one pair of hands I can't strangle everyone)
I've never really had any problems myself, I find it's those who actively look for discrimanation that find it the most! But maybe that's just me.

Really? There are lots of pagan teachers and I certainly know of one who doesn't appear to hide his beliefs in the workplace... I'm a bit confused by that statement, do you have any more info on that?

Here in the library i'm more likely to get discriminated against for being single and not having children than for being Pagan.
(People dont like it if i take a half term off as i dont have children to look after).

I agree with Pomona.

To me, the main role of groups like Pebble is to promote wider understanding and acceptance of paganism, because the vast majority of people in this country have no idea what it's all about. At the moment, most of the problems perceived by the pagan community, such as lack of representation in the National Curriculum, festivals not recognised by employers etc is down to ignorance rather than discrimination. If we get recognition, I think most of these problems will disappear.

There are cases of discrimination, and I'm sure many people on here have had personal experience of this. I've had problems with an RE teacher at school, and also with an ISP in France that banned all occult sites. However, many of these cases are due to ignorance, rather than an out and out desire to persecute. Many more can be put down to malice and general nastiness; the desire to torment that makes people pick on any sensitive spot, from religious beliefs to acne problems

I'm in two minds about subjects such as Christians protesting outside PF meetings. To me, that is harrassment. It would be unacceptable for them to protest by a synagogue or a gurdwara. On the other hand, most of the Christians who form these protests tend to confuse pagans, devil worshippers, new agers and satanists into one huge conglomerate of sinfullness. Better recognition, clarification of our beliefs and a strong place in the religious makeup of Britain should help solve that sort of problem.

Drach- who is in a glass half full mood today

perhaps because everybody knows what Christianity is and the basics of what its about - afterall our working year is based on accepted 'Christian' holidays.

However say Pagan to someone and they are just as likely to be aware of the demonising crap thats out there as they are to be ignorant, so groups like Pebble and the PF can at least try and educate.

In fact for me just having them out there to point to in case of need is reassuring, as is having Paganism recognised on the BBC faith board.


day to day its not in my mind, but its nice to have them there

Don't talk rubbish, Stormraven. I've been working in education for the past seven years, so I think I'm qualified to talk about this.

I've never filled in an application form for a teaching job that asked about my religion. Not even when I applied for a job at a Catholic school a few years ago. I've also never been asked about my religion at interview. Anyone who uses that excuse as a reason they didn't get the job just didn't have a good interview, and is making excuses.

I've never seen any of this discrimination you say is rife, and I don't think I'd miss something like that, because I'd be one of the victims of it. I can understand run-ins with the odd Xtian RE teacher... especially when said teenager gets stroppy about the way their religion gets treated, but that will be rare, especially these days, unless said teenager is in a religious school.

T

One of the things that has always attracted me towards paganism is a total lack, as far as I can see, of any organisation.
Organised religion? BAH! Hate it with a passion!
On this site there is such a wide diversity of views and practises, but what seems to me to bind us all together is a view that we should be able to practise our individual religion in our own individual way, and that no-one can be criticised for following their own path.
Yes, there possibly should be some sort of hierarchy at moots and events, and in certain rituals there must be someone to lead. But there's nothing to say that that "leader" couldn't be someone else next week, and so far as I've seen to date, everyone is respected for their views, no matter how new.
But most people in the UK don't think like that, they like things in nice boxes and some form of hierarchy to interact with. Hence a possible need for a "pressure group"





I think that Drach has it right here, large organisational bodies like PEBBLE or indeed Pagan-Fed can be a focal point for people with no knowledge of paganism.

As for discrimination, I don't think any large firms or government bodies are guilty of that any more, too much litigation and the Human Rights Act has forced them down that route. Certainly the Police service bends over backwards these days to accommodate employees of all races and creeds. I think discrimination if anything comes from individuals, usually with some axe to grind.

I was at a seriously christian school. No-one asked about religion as most kids don't really care. But there was religous assemblys and as it was part of the day you went, they said stuff you left. As it was a private school ( me = no snob though) it was kinda just part of the day, the classrooms were multi faith, and it wasn't discrimantory at all.
You went to that school that was what you got, it was a christian school so you couldn't really expect anything else.
Never saw it as an issue.

Personally I see the role of Pebble/PF as being advisory. I think most of the cases of so called 'discrimination' are due to ignorance, although I have no doubts that on occasion it does happen.
As for being asked at work, when I was taken on in my current job, one of the forms in the HR pack asked for religion, as well as ethnic origin, etc, but the questions were optional, the form was anonymous, and it was after I had been offered the job.

As the Employment Equality (Religion of Belief) Regulations 2003 have been law for some time any pagan or anyone else, whatever their religion or belief, who finds themselves discriminated against has recourse to the law.

ACAS have published an advisory leaflet for employers which is viewable here

Religion or Belief in the Workplace (warning pdf file)

and which includes a list of summaries of different religious beliefs and practices, including Pagan and Wicca although strangely lumped under Ancient Religion Druidism ...

So Pagans are obviously already on a level playing field with other beliefs as far as employment is concerned, so what is PEBBLES about ?

dave

Sorry, but who or what is Pebble??

Cheers
Finvarra

From the ACAS leaflet warning employers what to expect from us lot :_

Other Ancient Religions
These include religions covered by the Council of British Druid Orders and
examples are Druidry, Paganism and Wicca.
Festivals: Some examples of Festivals
Candlemas 2 February
Spring Equinox * 21/22 March
Beltaine 30 April
Summer Solstice * 21/22 June
Lughnasadh 2 August
Autumn Equinox * 21/22 September
Samhain 31 October
Winter Solstice * 21/22 December
*Dates moveable due to astronomical times set in accordance with GMT.
Food: Generally vegetarian or vegan, although not always.
Clothing: Some items of jewellery as associated with Pagan faiths such as
ankh, pentagram, hammer and crystal.
Bereavement: No specific requirements beyond that of normal
compassionate leave.
There are also other ancient religions such as Astaru, Odinism and
Shamanism.

dav

It's worth remembering that there's a strong geographical element to religious discrimination. In this country (Scotland), in or near cities or large towns, across most of the lowlands, and in some other areas, you're most unlikely to have any problems unless you seek them out - and as others have pointed out, some Pagans do seem to court hostility to reinforce their own sense of identity.

Elsewhere it can be very different. In parts of the Highlands, and in some insular communities elsewhere, Pagans generally keep their mouths shut for very good reason. The systematic hostility of neighbours makes life very hard indeed, sometimes dangerously so. It will seldom be expressed as direct religious prejudice, more the unspoken but acted on assumption that an individual or family are 'strange', 'different', 'don't belong here', 'not our kind of people, and so on'. There's a lot less of this than there used to be but it's still there.

There also seems to be either a strong random element or strong personal element. Some Pagans have no problems being open in strongly insular communities, where others in the same circumstances have their lives made miserable.

But having said all that, as the great majority of folk live in relatively cosmopolitan urban areas, serious discrimination is unlikely to be a problem for the great majority of Pagans. Groups like PEBBLE in Engalnd & Wales, or the PF in Scotland, are there to help in the individual cases where it does become a serious problem, and to keep helping to educating officialdom and the wider society towards the day when being a Pagan raises no more eyebrows than being a Buddhist or a Unitarian.

BB,

John Macintyre

I used to get a lot of that too, the emotional blackmail of people assuming that they had a greater right to time off during the summer holidays/ Xmas/Easter than I did and that I should be gratefull to have a fortnight in Feb instead purely because they had children and I didn't. However when I pointed out that when it came to 'family' my 9 nieces, 1 nephew, 5 brothers and full set of elderly parents more than outweighed their single wingeing sprog they started picking on someone else

I have to say that I wouldn't feel confident in the PF supporting me should I ever be unfortunate enough to experience discrimination. My recent experience of the treatment I received from them when I volunteered my services has led me to have no confidence that they would ever offer me any support if I had a problem of this kind.

Rhionnach

Well, your views on that have been expressed before - but just out of interest - in that respect, since you wouldn't regard the PF as being representative - would you see a need for other organisations running in tandem with the PF?

I would say yes, but PEBBLE's authority stops at the border as they are dealing with the Home Office which only covers England and Wales which means that I do not have an organisation which would represent my interests if I needed help in any way.

Rhionnach

It's not harrasment, it's a perfectly legal protest and they've got every right to do it. I'd actually support their right to such freedom of expression.

As far as recognition and clarification of our beliefs go, it won't make any difference to fundamentalist protestors. As far as their beliefs go, we worship false gods, we're idolatrous sinners and we're going to hell, end of story. Their actions are consistant with their beliefs, education won't change that.

But I agree it's not discrimination.

Pagans receive no more discrimination than anyone else. Everyone is subject to discrimination of some sort during their lives. Discrimination is a fact of life for everyone, it always has been, that's human nature for you. People tend to trust people who are most like them and be wary of people who are not like them. No point in getting all precious and upset about the odd negative reaction about you being a pagan. You're far more likely to be discriminated against for being fat than being pagan.

Adopt a victim mentality and you'll end up being victimised.

Hi Whitgar,

"It's not harrasment, it's a perfectly legal protest and they've got every right to do it. I'd actually support their right to such freedom of expression."

I'd agree with that.

Besides, it's much more fun to subvert such folks ideas than to try banning them.

I remember that local fundamentalists had threatened that 'thousands' of Croydon Christians would take to the streets to protest against the PF Conference there a couple of years back. We duly waited with not terribly bated breath. The first Christian to turn up wasn't a protester, but someone who'd come to apologise for the aggressive manners of their co-religionists and assure us that most Christians weren't hostile to other faiths. Having wished us well, they went away.

Time passed. After a while a mass demonstration of three people materialised, with a later fourth having to ask the nice Pagan security people on the door where she could find the rest of those protesting against us. They politely pointed her in the right direction with big smiles. The demonstrators stood on the pavement for a while doing their best to stir up the citizens of Croydon but were stiudiously ignored by passers by. When their presence formed a minor obstruction on the pavement, the police firmly moved them round to the side of the building out of the way. This was hilarious because a well known rock group was also playing Fairfield around that that time and they found themselves standing under a huge poster of "The Damned".

A nice Pagan lady (who is also a member of this site) even brought them out a cup of tea to help them keep warm. Consternation followed as they passed this suspicious object around, peering intently into its depths to discern what hellish traps lay concealed within its depths. Eventually the Pastor leading them gathered all his courage, embraced the risk of martyrdom, and took a sip to find it was just, well, a cup of tea. Before long, completely dispirited by the tolerant goodwill of the Pagans and the resolute indifference of the citizens of Croydon, they slunk away. Perhaps one or two of them may have wondered what the point of the exercise was. Perhaps not. Who knows.

That instance was outright comedy. I know some demonstrations against Pagan events have sometimes been much more forceful and involved abusive language, obstruction, threats of violence, and even the throwing of holy water over people queuing for tickets! That kind of thing obviously needs to be dealt with firmly by the police and the stewards. But in general, this kind of behaviour gives us an opportunity to stand up for the civil rights of folk who hate us. And if that doesn't send a powerful message about the difference between them and us then I don't know what would.

BB,

John Macintyre

Just to add a few further comments about allegations of discrimination against Pagans working in education.

It is true (in Derbyshire, at any rate) that on the application form for a job in Local Goverment/Education there is no box to tick on your religion. In job advertisments however, schools can partially get round this by including in the list of desireable critera "We are looking for candidates who will be sympathetic to the School's Xtian Ethos." You can see this kind of ad in the TES every week. Doesn't say you have to be an Xtian but it's universal code for the same. Nevertheless if you want a job, this critera is a no-brainer, after all one can be sympathetic to many aspects of Xtianity without joining the club.The Xtians will be quite content if you go through the motions and don't make a fuss. This bit is not intended as a joke - social inclusion in most workplaces means broadly accepting the status quo and not causing a fuss. It is possible circumvent the School Ethos requirement but this usually depends on being a Newly Qualified Teacher, which means at the very least you are £5000 a year cheaper to employ than anyone else being interviewed. They can at least put up with you being a buddhist for that saving.


With regard to other aspects of discrimination and having people represent you, maybe one of the first questions to ask is: I am really being discriminated against (ie: being refused work, accomodation, receiving threats or violence etc.) or am simply I not being taken seriously? I say "simply" but this can still be a serious thing, it is a well known tactic in cases of bullying. As there are new rules and regs for Bullying in the Workplace in the offing (see someone like Tim Field's anti-bullying website) this may be another avenue to explore.

Hi Rev Nick,

"It is true (in Derbyshire, at any rate) that on the application form for a job in Local Goverment/Education there is no box to tick on your religion. In job advertisments however, schools can partially get round this by including in the list of desireable critera "We are looking for candidates who will be sympathetic to the School's Xtian Ethos.""

That's interesting. It may not be so much an attempt to get round the Act but more an effort to maximise the scope of certain exemptions within it. The Employment Equality (Religion or Belief) Regulations which came into force on 2nd December 2003 do pretty much what they say they do, and quite specifically protect Pagans in addition to other minority religions & beliefs in the workplace, in vocational training, and by extension in higher education. They are intended to outlaw direct discrimination, harassment, victimisation, and/or indirect discrimination, which in the last of these is taken to mean "applying a provision, criterion or practice which disadvantages people of a particular religion or belief and which is not justified in objective terms." (DTI Guidelines, Oct 2003). However, as is the case with the ECHR, the devil is in the detail (if you'll excuse that phrase) and that "which is not justified in objective terms" actually does give some grounds for legally sustaining religious discrimination to some degree and in certain cases.

The legislation allows for an employer to establish a Genuine Occupational Requirement (GOR) for a specific job, providing they can establish that particular post requires the holding of a particular religion or belief. Even though blanket exemptions to the law are not allowed, this is still permissable in cases where the majority of tasks involved in the job in question might not be significantly affected by religious belief. So while it would be obviously reasonable to expect that someone becoming an Anglican Bishop must be a practising member of the CoE, it's not exactly clear where the line may end up being drawn in other cases - clerical staff employed by churches? Teachers in Church schools?

This legislation is only part of a very broad range of Equality legislation covering:

Race (July 2003)
Religion & Belief and Sexual Orientation (December 2003)
Disability (October 2004)
Age (October 2006)

I understand that the requirements for GOR's are much more narrowly defined under these other measures than they are under the Religion & Belief provisions, which do give a fair amount of leeway to organised religions. However, the legislation does not establish any hierarchy of discrimination, so it is not at all clear what will happen if, for example, a conflict arises between a persons right to equal treatment regardless of sexual orientation, and a religious employers claim' claim that homophobia was enshrined in their religious beliefs, so that such equal treatment constituted religious discrimination against them!

Interestingly, at the DTI training course on this I attended back in 2003, the instructors stated that existing legislation on Church Schools was held to be compliant with these new directives and no changes were expected there as a result. Obviously this was in Scotland, the laws on Church Schools will be different in England & Wales, but I'd be surprised if the end result was.

The general sense of that meeting was that the new legislation was progressive, in some areas well in advance of public opinion, but that there would be a fair number of court cases required to establish how it was going to work out in practice. In particular, serious conflicts seemed likely in cases where the ethos of an employer contrasted strongly with the valuesof an employee or applicant, each of whom might seek to use different parts of the legislation to back their case.

BB,

John Macintyre

Sorry, not really advancing this thread in any way, but just re-reading John's post about the Croydon PF - I remember reading about this on another forum and it made me weak with laughter then - thanks for posting about it again If memory serves, wasn't that the one where Mad Mick went out and spoke to one of the protestors and just argued biblical points with them until they gave up with no more ammunition? Aye, "know thy enemy" is a useful phrase to heed sometimes!

Dear Pomona,

"Sorry, not really advancing this thread in any way, but just re-reading John's post about the Croydon PF - I remember reading about this on another forum and it made me weak with laughter then - thanks for posting about it again biggrin.gif If memory serves, wasn't that the one where Mad Mick went out and spoke to one of the protestors and just argued biblical points with them until they gave up with no more ammunition? Aye, "know thy enemy" is a useful phrase to heed sometimes!"

Yes, that's the one. For those who haven't met the celebrated Mad Mick, he looks uncannily like the Rev. Ian Paisley - and was mistaken for him once -, can imitate the voice perfectly, and was raised in a ferociously Christian environment which means he can quote the bible forwards, backwards and sideways. Having a bit of time on his hands he strolled out to have a friendly chat with the demonstrators. One accosted him with a biblical quotation, Mick extended the quote and then cited another that contradicted it. The demonstrator tried again, Mick capped it again and produced another contradictory biblical reference. The demonstrator was last seen backing away crying: "Pastor! I need help! I'm out of my depth here!"

BB,

John Macintyre

Can understand Whitgar's and John's point of view, but what would happen if these protesters turned up at a mosque, for example? They'd probably be arrested and charged with religiously aggravated public order offences. And quite right too.

But then again, can understand John's point entirely. These sort of religious bigots are usually completely phased by tolerance towards themselves.

But they didn't turn up at a hallowed place of pagan religious worship. It was a hall rented for a convention. You are in fact allowed legally to protest outside a place of religious worship anyway, so long as your actions are not causing (or likely to cause) a breach of the peace, and so long as your actions are not threatening or preventing the people attending the religious event from exercising their legal right to worship . Holding placards and expressing your disapproval about what someone else is doing is not a breach of the peace. If we forbid people to openly express their disapproval of what someone else is doing in religious matters then we logically should forbid people to openly express disapproval about what people are doing politically. Perhaps therefore the anti-war protests in London should have been banned on the grounds of public order offences?

The law (or its enforcement) is not stacked against pagans. If some people from other religions don't like us and choose to legally protest against us then that's their legal right to do so, and long may they continue to exercise their right to do so. Unless of course you want to ban the right of anyone to protest against any activity that you feel they shouldn't be openly protesting against.

I think we really should get out of the "my Pagan religion is being victimised by the Christian society I live in" mentality. If some people don't like us and believe we're damned to burn for eternity, we have no right to insist that they should think differently. Legally they can't stop you following what you believe, and legally they're entitled to peacefully let you know how they feel about your religion.

In frith,

Whitgar

Trent said



Exactly what I was thinking. I fail to see how that sort of protest can be legal.

Whitgar said



I disagree. Some, or even many pagans will go through their lives without suffering any form of discrimination or victimisation. However, there are a lot of people out there who have suffered and still do suffer severe discrimination based on their beliefs. One look at the news articles on the recent Social Services uproar in Lewis will tell you that. On this site alone there are people who have been investigated by the SS , been taunted or bullied at school or in the workplace, and even forced to move house due to constant persecution, purely because of their beliefs.

That, IMO, is why we need that recognition and we need that support, in the hope that one day, Whitgar's statement will be true.

yeah, see your point there Whitgar. And for the record, I don't think laws are stacked against pagans. The laws are there for everyone to use and ECHR Act applies to all religions. I'd also respect everyone's right to speak out against what they believe to be wrong. However.....



think I'd argue that standing outside a place of worship with placards denouncing that particular religion would probably be likely to cause a breach of the peace. Certainly if there were complaints made, Police officers would really have to take some form of action, even if just to try to move the protesters on.

But yes, I agree it is a difficult one, and I hope I never have the job.....

Sorry, missed Drach's reply there.



yes, I'd quite forgotten the "Lewis incident". I would have said that I still think that pagans are more likely to suffer discrimination from individuals than corporate bodies, I like to think that in the last few years this would be the case. Lewis was only about fifteen years ago though. I hope we live in more enlightened times now...

I didn't say that pagans are free from discrimination, but that discrimination of some sort or another is a fact of life for just about every person (pagan or not) at various points in their life. If you are different from most of the people you mix with (be that your religion, appearance, race etc.) then you are vunerable to discrimination. This sort of discrimination by individuals is simply a fact of life (institutional discrimination on the other hand is something that can be dealt with).
Don't get wrong, recognition would be a good thing, but not because without it our lives will be blighted by discrimination (discrimination would still continue, as it does for most other people).

There is not a culture of discrimination against pagans in this country, we should get rid of any chips we have on our shoulders and stop thinking of ourselves as an 'oppressed religious minority'. If you go through life thinking of yourself as being a likely victim of much discrimination then you will attract much discrimination. The most effective way to deal with a bully is to confront him directly about the issue and then 'punch him in the face', acting liked an oppressed victim will result in more bullying.


In frith,

Whitgar

Dear Trent,

"yes, I'd quite forgotten the "Lewis incident". I would have said that I still think that pagans are more likely to suffer discrimination from individuals than corporate bodies, I like to think that in the last few years this would be the case. Lewis was only about fifteen years ago though. I hope we live in more enlightened times now..."

The Lewis case was actually last year (you may be thinking of Orkney?), and while the Procurator Fiscals Office quite understandably decided not to proceed with a case that seems to have been based largely on supposition and superstition, the traumatised families in question are equally understandably still seeking legal redress from the police and social workers involved. The case shows many of the conflicts of value under which religious discrimination can still happen. Scottish PF sought, and obtained, assurances from the Northern Constabulary that they had proper diversity awareness training in place and would not support religious discrimination against Pagans. I have no reason to doubt the sincerity with which these assurances were given by senior staff. However, it's equally obvious that while the police have been making strenuous efforts to quite genuinely improve their treatment of minority groups, there are still going to be some police officers around who do not agree with these changes and who may take action based on a rather different view of the world. That appears, and I stress 'appears' because the matter is not closed, as if it may have been the case here.

There's no question that things are moving in the right direction, no question at all. But equally, it would be unwise to assume that because a new law offers protection, that protection will be readily available in any individual case. Having rights is one thing. Having the institutional, legal, and social leverage to ensure that these rights will be fully respected can be quite another thing.

As you say, Pagans are much more likely to suffer discrimination from individuals than from corporate bodies, nearly all of whom now have diversity awareness training in place. But positions within corporate bodies are held by individuals whose actions may well be influenced by strong personal views. Religious discrimination, like other forms of discrimination, has become much more subtle in recent years. It's unlikely to take the form of someone openly saying that they hate Pagans or lesbians or black people or disabled people. It's much more likely to be disguised as criticisms of their competence, qualifications, individual character and so on - and in many cases the law can't directly touch that. It requires a rather slower process of genuine cultural change.

BB,

John Macintyre

I think that having Pebble and other bodies means that pagans (whatever comes under that vague definition!) are taken seriously, and, just as importantly, shows that we take ourselves seriously and that our beliefs should be respected.

Don't forget that while many pagans are non-hierchical, many of the institutions in this country are not, and they prefer dealing with some kind of organisation to a collection of individuals.

I think that the last ten years has seen a much greater awareness of the validity of other spiritual paths that were once treated with great suspicion, but I still think that Pebble has a role: if nothing else, then as a central point to deal with any problems that do arise, and try and pre-empt any from arising.

The ordinary bod on the street still has a very distorted view of what a pagan is and believes (hey, up until less than a month ago, so did I!) so I think this work is very important.

Love and light,

Whitgar, I think you are misintepreting what I am saying. No one on this site is advocating a victim mentality, but the issue of discrimination is not one that can be brushed under the carpet, and no amount of positive mental attitude can prevent it.

There is a culture of discrimination against minority groups in this country. Paganism is one of these groups. Pagans may not face quite the same sort of problems as disabled people or ethnic minorities, for example, but the fact remains that a pagan person (or a muslim, or a blind person, or a single mother) is far more likely to suffer discrimination than your average white middle class christian.

Would that be me? I probably have the advantage of having been at my current school 'like forever'. So I have had plenty of time to establish the fact that Pagans are decent human beings who care about the students and aren't into indoctrinating them or draging them into some kind of evil cult etc.

I DO see some value in having PEBBLE around though. There have been and are cases where professionals have had difficulties in their careers because of prejudices held by someone in authority. There have been and still are cases that crop up where the pagan community is accused of something because the criminals have gone for a 'hammer horror style pagan' way of executing their crime. There has been difficulty in people being able to get spiritual representation in hosiptals. Things are improving. Not all the improvements can be directly attributable to the PF or PEBBLE, but to the damned hard work and dedication of fellow pagans. But having PEBBLE and the PF as bodies to point to for recognised support.

There are definitely educational efforts being made by PEBBLE and the PF. This can only be a good thing, and if the two organisations have credibility with the government then that adds to the impact of anything produced.

All in all, I think PEBBLE have a valuable place in our community.

BB

Mike

Actually, no me dear. I meant Thunarr who moves schools every other term or so and never has any trouble despite wearing more pagan jewellery at once than most people could carry!

Does that mean I should just carry a large magnet with me next week so I can find you both easily?!

Sure white middle class Christians suffer less discrimination than most (unless of course they are fat, or gay, or ugly, or are very short, or wear glasses, or speak with an overly posh accent, or are Irish, or Polish, or from the North, or have a stammer, or are very strict straight-laced Christians, or have red hair, or are too stupid, too intelligent, too shy etc. etc.).

Discrimination against people who are different from the common view of what the ideal norm is a fact of life, it will ALWAYS exist. I don't see how legal recognition will stop this. There are strong laws against racial abuse someone, but people still carry on doing it. If you think legal recognition will result in a significant reduction in discrimination or bullying then I'd say you have an unrealistic view of human nature. Discrimination is a fact of life for everyone, best to accept the fact, deal with it personally, and move on.

In frith,

Whitgar

I dont know much about the pebble organisation but i think its a good idea depending upon how they go about informing people, and deffinatly a good idea if they help prosicute person harassing someone.
Althogh i have incountered very little harassment the harassment i have incountered (verbal abuse) ,due to my nuckle draging impulsive nature has resulted in an expression of fellings expressed with my fists which of course is not a clever thing to do and inevitably got me into a fair old bit of troubble so to know that there is a organisation that could peacefully help or advise is great so that those of little tollerance for persons with little tollerance wont have to feel alone and act acordingly
a peacefull protest is fine but as soon as someone purposly shouts an unfrendly coment or a threat it is no longer a protest but is harassment and should be dealt with.
as time goes on people are becoming more and more tollerent and genrally nicer . but if people are only told of the pagan paths by the church it will never improve so the pebble is nessesary to corect the brainwashing of the church.
if someone harasses you please give them hell or they will do it to somone else who it may effect phycologicly but dont use violence unless they do.

bye bye from tim

As a white middle class person the only form of discrimination that I've noticed is because I'm a pagan. It's always been from individuals, but has only been a couple of times, and nothing that has particularly upset me. On both occasions it was from Christians, and other Christians have apologised profusely on behalf of their peers for the discrimination. I don't let it bother me and I refuse to regard myself as a persecuted minority (because I'm not).

I have to say that the severe cases of discrimination I've seen have been brought on by a victim mentality, and paganism probably being the easiest target on people who are going to get discriminated against anyway, because sometimes life isn't fair.

Sometimes you don't get the job because you're the worst candidate for the job, not because you're a pagan/black/gay/fat.

Rhiannon

Right I have had discrimination aainst me as a pagan - but this was from one sad nutter I lived close by to, and believe me he picked on everyone!!! So I don't consider his threats to me personal to my religion. He was just well nuts.. or liked arguments or something he didn't like me as in my teenage days I wore lots of black,shock horror. And read tarot he found out that several of my mothers friends had come round one night for tea and a reading and he went nuts completey off the scale. He spat on me in the street, shouted insults why driving past in his car and sent letters to my school about me. Luckily everyone else was sooo nice and knew he was nuts, after several months he found a new victim and ignored me!!!
At that time I was not calling myself a pagan I just read tarot and did fortunes he was just a horrible man, and since I have called myself a pagan I have never ever suffered any discrimnationof any kind I do believe it is down to the individual, you will always get a dodgy few pagans, xtrians, catholiques, muslims who say stuff or do stuff that makes everyone else disallusioned with their views.

Discrimination is alive and well in South Lanarkshire, Scotland. A pagan friend of mine was trying to adopt a child, and was advised to "hide his paganism" as it would count against him. Not sure what I would have done in his situation, but I respected his decision, they were desperate for a child and made very good and loving parents. Every time he expected a visit from the social workers he did indeed hide his altar. Not only that but as a carer for a disabled person he took them to Catholic mass every Sunday, only to hear his religion being dammed and decried from the pulpit. This is not acceptable as far as I am concerned.

Although discrimination has not landed at my door(so far) it does exist and we really do have to face it.

Scath

Hi Scathach,

"Discrimination is alive and well in South Lanarkshire, Scotland."

I'm not surprised to hear that. South Lanarkshire was definitely one of the places I was thinking of when suggesting that where you live can have quite a lot to do with whether you encounter prejudice or not. Of course Pagans have the same right to be considered as foster/adoptive parents as anyone else, and should be treated strictly on merit. But as in other apects of life, when a mentality that has changed little since the 16th Century has a strong hold on an area, and there are lots of people with that mentality working in the schools, hospitals, social care and the police, having a right and being able to have that right respected may be two very different things.

BB,

John Macintyre

Where abouts, I grew up in Glasgow, Bellshill,Coatbridge + Motherwell. I never had any trouble.

I know folk from South Lanarkshire and to be honest my being Pagan is a bit bewildering for them - and I do NOT mean that they're unintelligent, but because in that part of Scotland it really seems to be you're either Catholic or Protestant.

I mean, just to try and explain a bit for folk who don't know what it can be like in that part of Scotland, towns like Harthill are come over as being rampantly Protestant, Rangers FC supporting, and Croy is Celtic FC and staunchly Catholic. Generally. My own experience is that after your name, the first thing people from Lanarkshire/Strathclyde want to know about you is what school you went to or, if you're a man, what football team you support (it's expected it'll be either Celtic or Rangers) - ie, what religion are you. And because Paganism falls so far off the radar it gets treated with either absolute incomprehension or utmost suspicion. There's a joke that you can say to someone from that area that you're Pagan and they'll say, "aye, but are you a Catholic or Protestant one?!" and in my experience that is very true. I don't think it's possible to overstate really the Protestant/Catholic split that is prevalant in that part of the country - think of Belfast but without (thankfully) the horrific violence.

Actually, an interesting point was raised and I'd like to know if anyone has any idea - does denouncing another religion from the pulpit count as discrimination/incitement to religious hatred? Or are churches/chapels etc excluded?

Doesn't count as discrimination, how can it?
To a monotheist we have been decieved and need to be returned to the flock. You suggesting editing the bible too to suit other religons? Then we have this place watched like a hawk and Pasher would have to change his sig etc, etc. ( what happens to one would have to happen to all)
Religous discrimanation happens when people are doing anything exclusive to their own group. Think about it, forming a specifically pagan board is discimanatory too. Where do we draw the line to stop it becoming ridiculous.

What doesn't count as discrimination? We're not talking about the instructions in the Bible to proselytize, no-one's denying the right of a Christian to try to convert a non-believer; no-one's denying the right of a Pagan to be suspicious and resentful of the Christian who attempts to do so. We're talking about the legal right of every person in this country to be free from exclusion solely on the grounds of their religion. And just latterly making the point that in some parts of Britain that freedom just does not happen as there is an accepted culture that you WILL be discriminated against if you're of the "wrong"religion, and that you will in turn discriminate against the "other" religion. And that viewpoint is so entrenched it is very difficult to get round it.

Discrimination on this board would only be if other faiths attempted to join and were refused on the grounds of their beliefs. That there have only been one or two Christians who have joined is more to do with their being put off by the fact that this is a board which is aimed at Pagans to discuss Pagan topics. If they were refused simply because they weren't Pagan - THAT would be discrimination.

But you were talking about churches, another exclusive by religion basis. The comparison still stands as if you, even in a theoretical basis, count what is said in the pulpit as discrimanation, then my point of where exactly would it end!