Although many assume that pagans are more open minded and accepting in general and also of different or alternative ways are we really? After all why should this be the case? I'm not talking about being so open minded that our brains fall out though, but of being more accepting of a whole. Is it assumed that because our beliefs are different to the accepted 'norm' that we will then be easy to convince of something daft or outrageous? Why when as a pagan I don't hold or agree with someone's peculiar (to me) way of thinking of or viewing an issue that they assumed I would be more open to it because of my spiritual beliefs? Just because I face baised reactions and expectations daily does not mean that I will believe someones word about something that this really is the case without further investigation of my own into it?

Why does being a pagan make people assume that I will be more tolerant too? Being pagan has nothing to do with my tolerance for putting up with prats, (but being a witch gives me more scope on how to deal with them ).

Why on earth does being pagan mean I'm supposed to be tolerant and open minded? I'll listen to what people have to say, but if outrageous claims can't be backed up with good evidence then I'm sorry but I would consider the person a prat in 99% of cases.

So does being a Pagan mean you are more open minded and tolerant or do you feel that you expected to be more tolerant and accepting because you are Pagan? Why do you think this is?

Hmmm, good questions. I do think the average person here in the valley is likely to be more open minded than, for example, an average christian. Of course there are exceptions to everything - I'd say its a good bet that someone, someplace around The Valley is more close minded than the average human being... But I think, by nature, people on some sort of "alternative" path are more likely to be sympathetic, understanding, and open minded to those on other, different, alternative paths. For example, I would bet that, if you were to take a poll of only those strictly hetrosexual members of The Valley, they would be more tolerant and accepting of bi-sexuality and homosexuality than the general population is. It doesn't mean we suffer fools lightly, but I do think we are more likely to consider possibilites outside the social norm..

Hugs,
Seeker

Generally very tolerant until the point comes that someone has annoyed me, then tolerance dissapears for that person/s and never reappears.

Indeed. Why should we be more accepting? Why should we be any different from anyone else in this regard? We don't have to accept that all 'paths', religions, beliefs etc. are valid. Some people (some pagans included) base their beliefs on a load of unfounded hocus. Why should we be expected to say "that's great, I accept the basis upon which you hold those beliefs to be entirely plausible" when its just a load of cobbled together hogwash?

I have tolerance when it comes to other religions. Or at least I give them a chance until they try to prosletize or tell me that their belief is the ONLY one.

But my BS tolerance is zero.

Ohhh good topic Weatherwitch.

mmm. Does being pagan make me more tolerant and openminded. Not exactly. I've always considered myself pretty open-minded, never believed in foistering my own thoughts onto other people. I love a good debate, but if I don't agree or agreement is impossible then I respect the other's person's point of view and accept that life would be pretty boring if we all thought the same. LOL, well I try to anyway. There are instances where I simply don't have the time of day for someone, i.e. liars, small-minded, hypocrital hurtful people and the like.

Being Pagan does make me a wee bit more open minded about other pagan lifestyles, if only because I understand a wee bit better now, perhaps that is the key to any tolerance and open-mindness, understanding?

I have a healthy dose of cynicism and won't acccept something jjust because I'm told, at the same I try not to dismiss something just because it seems implausible or baseless, after all I don't know everything (although naturally it pains me to admit that ) and just because I've not heard of something or personally think its a crock of sh*t doesn't mean it is.

Naturally, I do find it somewhat bizzare of people who profess to study a path based on say Buffy the Vampire, or aspire to be like the girls from charmed and yes I might even feel a little sorry for them, particularly, as I think the real world can offer far more magic and allurement than any fictional setting, no matter how appealing, one simply has to look to find the magic. However, I have never been an evangelical type of person, even when I was a xtain, so I leave them to get on with it, and perhaps its somewhat superior of me, but I hope as they grow and read and live their life more they will develop a little more depth and understanding.

As for expectation. I think there is an expectation, from non pagans and from newbie pagans. I remember being shocked when I first started looking into Wicca out of curiosity and met with some very fervant pagans who thought it was bollocks, and weren't afriad to say so. And yes my shock was because I guess, I kinda expected pagans to be more tolerant of each other.... yet paganism doens't make us any less human or susceptible to human follibles... nor does it make us any more gullible.

I like to subscribe to the live and let live philosophy, but I won't be taken for a ride.

I don't suffer fools gladly and I have an equal opportunities approach to that anyone will incur my wrath for being an idiot regardless of race gender age religious or sexual orientation etc ( but no no not because of it, don't be silly ) I suppose there is an expectation for pagans to be more open minded and tolerant, I certainly have some expectation of that myself ( and of myself ) I don't expect it to be perfect, we all have our prejudices and intolerances.

I guess part of my expectation is for pagans to think about and challenge their own prejudices more. I would like to think pagans have a tendency not to be racist, sexist or homophobic, but again I have been surprised and angered in the past here by just how narrowminded some folks can be on certain issues. I don't think all pagans should be flowerbraiding la la everything is love and peace maaaaan hippy cliche types because we're all so diverse anyway but having a think about something in relation to your path instead of your own kneejerk reaction may provide surprising results, ie being more openminded.

Oh by the way, by idiot I don't mean a person who doesnt know something or asks questions that may sound daft.

I think it's like Seeker said - we're maybe more open to accepting things outwith the norm - or at least prepared to listen and try and understand before making up our minds. But at the end of the day we're human with our own prejudices, likes, dislikes etc, and I don't think that being Pagan makes us immune from that.

When it comes to things like people spouting things in paganism, eg, everyone on earth worshipped the one Great Goddess until Jesus came along and spoiled it all, or trying to tell me that thinking rainbows and crystals and lovely white thoughts will heal the earth etc, then I get more intolerant to be honest... As has been said before, I'm open minded, but not so open-minded that my brains fall out...

Wow goood question WW.

Interested points raised. i'll just put my two cents in as well.

If you become biased and intolerant towards others, you run the risk of become the thing you dislike/hate the most (xtain fundis). Because you are being hypocritical (no-one in mind, just a general 'you'), you rail against religious tolerance and biase, and with the next breath you inflict it on others.
How can you be a responsible spiritual/religious person if you are not open to possibilities and tolerant to a higher standard than normal people or at least the Xtains?

To highlight a point raised earlier. Who among us has the right to decide which paths are right or valid? The Order of the Jedi knight or Coven of the White Unicorn of Love have as much right to exist as any we use. A 'normal' person would look at what we do and say we believe in fantasy and fairy tales (also we worship satan on the side ). who is to say who's right?

We are only human at the end of the day. But we should attempt to rise above the pettier side of human nature.

An interesting topic indeed. I think many would consider me to be so tolerant my brains have already fallen out. How they could tell the before and after, I'm not quite sure.

But I am in an odd position, being married to an evangelical Christian. So that may have some bearing on the matter. I'll outline my own perspective, but before I do so, I'd just like to say that there is no reason why a pagan should be EXPECTED to be more tolerant than anyone else.

So, to my perspective. I've seen quite a bit of negativity from people about pagans. When listening to what they actually have to say, it is fairly clear that the negativity is based on misconceptions about what pagans believe and what pagans do (I'm using generalisations here because that is how the negativity is presented). I've also seen many pagans react to this negativity with similar misconceptions about those who were negative towards pagans. Those reactions were also generalisations. When I first started trying to address that situation (and it is something I would obviously find myself having to do, given my marital situation) I would rant and shout about how wrong these people were etc. The outcomes of such an approach are that anything of any value I had to say would be overlooked because people don’t like being shouted and ranted at, and tend to switch off. I realised this was happening and decided I would try to listen to peoples alternative perspective to see if I could make sense of how they saw the world. Because I did this, and was able to demonstrate that I had listened, I found people were more willing to listen to what I had to say.

For me, tolerance is about trying to understand how other people see things and why they see them that way. It isn't about coming to an agreement with them about that view. When placed in that context I find myself quite intolerant of intolerance. But I personally believe tolerance is important if we wish to break down the intolerance and misconceptions that are pointed in our direction.

I don't EXPECT others to follow my approach. But I do see how it could be of benefit to people.

BB

Mike

Hmmm, I'm strangely reminded of crop circles and how we should believe them because we're pagan...

Chicken and egg though, are we slightly more open minded because we're pagan or pagan becuase we're slightly more open minded? I suppose the conception that we'll swallow anything might be derived from the notion that if we believe we can cast spells and that carrying a lump or rock will make us calmer/more successful/less ill, we'll believe anything!

I would expect pagans to be more tolerant because on average, a pagan will meet more people intolerant of his/her religion than say, a follower of one of larger faiths. Someone exposed to more intolerance can either shrug it off and say "that's how the world is" and return the favour to others, or they can say "well that was depressing, I should make sure I never make the same mistakes that person made when they were assuming x, y, and z about my path."

So hopefully we're all at least a bit more tolerant - a bit willing to at least listen to what people say before we jump down their throats.

I hope?

I think we pagans are a very tolerant bunch.

Why, I even allowed the last guy who touched Donnar's oak to pray to his own god before I sacrificed him...

Heil Odin!

S.

I think that Pagan's in general are thought to be more tolerant in part because of the many different branches of Paganism. You have to be accepting to a degree to get along in a religion where we can't even agree on the spelling of 'magic.'
But that being said, I feel that being a paga does not make you instantly open minded, although I have heard some people say " of course I'm open minded, I'm pagan..." to me this was a very dangerous thought. It was translated in my head thatbthis person believed that whatever they did, they were being open minded.
Personally I thuink it's all down to the person, if you have faced prejudice and presumption, then it can be annoying. But then at the end of the day, if your not open-minded yourself. Don't expect anyone else to be the same for you. Never ask from another person what you aren't willing to ask from yourself.
It will be interesting to see others opinions on this matter.

Think the tolerance comes from the ability to think things thru for oneself and accept other people may do that too, but then again do they???
I am intolerant of murderers, child abusers, religious bigots who will not allow me my say, or any bigot who will not allow me my say.
Probably people do expect too much of a laid back and unopposed view from Pagans on any subject, which is bizarre.
As you say some of us are Witches too, and can deal with that.
But no, being tolerant doesn't mean suffering fools gladly.
perhaps we need to get across to others that we are Pagans and not Doormats?

Well, some of the expectation does come from the perceptions founded or otherwise of other religions' lack of tolerance of other religions generally plus stuff like dogma that is prejudiced towards women, homosexuals, people of differing ethnic backgrounds etc. So from that angle I can understand why there would be the view that pagans in all their glorious diversity should have a unified higher level of tolerance of the things that are wasps in other peoples behinds.. Tolerance and broadmindedness does not have to equal sheep mentality, fluffiness, doormattedness. lack of individual choice/expression of personality or indifference.

Well said LadyCat!!!!!

Regards,
Seeker

Too funny!!!!

Thanks,
Seeker

hmm not sure if this is going to come out quite how I mean it but I'll have a go anyway.

I think it comes down to whether you consider yourself a 'Pagan' or a follower of a particular path.

People who follow one path and who don't feel the need (or who are not allowed) to explore other paths or even consider them as 'real' are likely to be somewhat close minded and dare I say it, intolerent.

This is true no matter what path you follow whether a Pagan path, Christian or Atheist. It could even be said to be true of a polytheist if they feel that only the gods of their pantheon are true.

However if you consider yourself as following one path amongst many then you are more likely to accept that other paths and ideas have as much validity. So someone who thinks of themself as a Pagan and understands this describes a group of disimilar paths and beliefs is more than likely to accept that someone who follows another path, who lives a different lifestyle and who has different values is just as valid and 'normal' as them.

Of course there are limits though, whether based on the law, deep rooted beliefs, personal experience or cultural mores.

Now please do not panic: read this bit very carefully before you grab your flaming torches and pitchforks

Paedophiles have been touched upon, but when you consider it paedophilia, as in engaging in sexual activity with children, is very much a product of the culture rather than a universal offence.

The human being is an animal and once sexually mature the reproductive imperitive is there to be acted on. Now in different cultures the age at which a human can legally do this varies. What for some cultures would be the accepted norm would be classed as an offence in others.

Now I do not condone sexual activity with anyone under the age of consent, and indeed I feel that in many ways our culture has started pushing children into a maturity that they are not prepared for. However I feel that as an example it does have some merit. Just as marriage to and sex with a forteen year old would be shocking (and illegal) to our culture but acceptable in another the worship of a different god while largely accepted here is no less shocking and illegal elsewhere.

What gods are acceptable varies from culture to culture and country to country. In the UK there are few restrictions, while certain fundemental groups might act otherwise, in truth provided you stay within the laws of the land you can worship who you want. Elsewhere this isn't always the case. There are reports of Christians being imprisoned (and I believe Killed) in China, Greek citizens are not allowed to openly worship the Greek gods - even though their government exploits their cultural history at every opportunity and in North Korea only 'government sponsored' religions are allowed.

However even then there are limits: despite the acceptability of 'child relationships' in some cultures, there is no argument that would convince me that sexual interaction with a person who is neither physically nor emotionally capable should ever be allowed, just as while I am willing to accept the rights of others to follow their own paths no argument exists that would convince me of the validity of a path that was based on inflicting pain on others or sacrificing babies.

hmmm am I drifting off topic a bit here?

Anyway what I am saying is that people who see their way as the only way (whether Christians (though please note that if they all followed the teachings of their God this wouldn't be an issue) or even pagans who can only see what they have 'read') are less likely to be open minded than those that see their way as being only one way of many (ie Pagans who know that Paganism is an umbrella and know what this means)

Hope that made sense

thats very good of you lol


Personally I try to be as accepting as I can, I like to listen to others beliefs as long as they dont preach to me, I am accepting of most people I think... although I do not suffer fools gladly infact I get quite peeved at them, just because I am pagan doesnt mean I have to listen to their BS nor believe in crop cirlces as esk pointed out lol, general things that are outside the 'norm of society' such as homosexuals etc that doesnt bother me, as long as they are nice enough people

there are people in every path that are idiots/fools so whether they be pagan/Xtian/occultists whatever, Its not the things people believe in, its the actual people I dont like

so no I dont think you have to be more accepting just because we are pagan etc, although alot of pagans dont judge the book by its cover they judge the contents, so it looks like we are more accepting than the average Xtain etc cos alot of them judge on face value alone.

No.

Many pagans (although of course no member of this forum ) consider themselves something special, although not necessarily better, than non-Pagans. This may be down to the classic search for being 'different' - a differentness of which one can be out loud and proud - or just going with the latest fad.

Basically, we're no different than anyone else...although, having said that, I've never met a pagan who's a Republican.

Dryad

OOOOOOOh I have. They do exist. Ok, so they're a rare breed. But I met a few when I was visiting the US.

BB

Mike

LOL true, we have some pagan Torys here so eh.

Does also this include pagan intolerance of Christians?



I'd disagree with that. Being a responsible/spiritual religious person doesn't require a higher standard of tolerance than normal people, this implies that normal people are of a lower spiritual standing than pagans. I've also met a lot of very spiritual Christians, people that have very much earned my respect for this (even though their beliefs are very different from mine).



Sure they've a right to exist, but just because something exists and someone believes in it doesn't mean its not bollocks. I'll respect their right to believe it but I will also respect my own right to view what they believe as bollocks, and to tell them this if they ask me what I think of what they believe or if they try to put forward their beliefs in a discussion involving me.

Good point. But I would hope that this was done respectfully. There are quite a few people in the world who could do with learning how to be respectful when disagreeing with others. Mind you, I haven't generally been aware of that problem here.

BB

Mike

I think really we need to determine 'tolerance', as people who expect tolerance often mean something far different such as 'gullible'.
After all look what people expect from Xtains if they are another strand of Xtianity, and look what we can get from Xtians, yet they expect tolerance in return!!
I think Pagans as a group are far more understanding of human ways, but need to draw a line, such as all the paedophile activities, and other harmful and demeaning ways that people do treat other people.
Sorry its a bit waffly, but I know what I mean

Well firstly I would point out that not all Christians are intolerant towards the beliefs of other faiths - whether that be other Christian faiths or Pagan paths, it is just a few and probably no greater a percentage (probably smaller indeed) than Pagans who are intolerant towards Christians.

If you wait for the other side to tolerate you before you offer tolerance in return and if they do the same.....someone has to make the first move!!

Yes Pagans as a group are more understanding - or at least willing to try and understand - but there are enough of us who fall short of this.

Well yes to a point,I am tolerant of other view points, and can do that but can also get bigotry in return.
For instance tolerant conversation with my parents: Dad Cof E easy going not feeling any threat of an angry God, Mum RC and scared stiff of any different opinion that may lead to Hellfire. In fact any belief conversation with Mum soon goes off kilter and straight into damnation, other than her own. I understand she has been brainwashed, but she gets furious that I won't be.

I was brought up in rural mid Wales in the 60's, and saw more intolerance of people by kindly Xtians, for instance a Childrens home near us for whats' now known as Downs, but then they were called generally the 'bloody idiots', and this on Sunday after a service.
One parishioner was shunned by the community as her child had cranio- facial deformities due to German measles, but no, kindly Xtain gossip had it as something else.

Easy to see why I became Pagan.

Yeah, people can be very unpleasant and might sometimes even use their faith as a smokescreen to hide their personal bigotry.

BB

Mike

Excellent thread.

Very much agree with your argument, Coz.

Always considered Pagans to be more open minded towards other religions, especially since Paganism is generally an umbrella for a large collection of paths.
But like with any rule, I am sure there are exceptions to this rule.

Personally I try to be as open minded to anyone's religion/path as I possibly can until the point they try to convince me the are absolutely true and I am not.
I expect people to show me the same courtesy as I show them.
We are all walking different paths towards the same goal

A problem with that is that a 'One true way' approach is a core aspect of some faiths (not just Christianity BTW). Therefore it will feature quite heavily in that persons beliefs. I would no more insist that someone change the core of their belief system to fit my perspective than I would accept someone trying the same with me. I don't mind people telling me they believe I am wrong, or I am making the wrong decisions, just as long as they don't try to interfere with my right to be wrong and make the wrong decisions. When that happens I start pointing out aspects of their own faith/doctrine that put such actions in error.

BB

Mike

eeek, blimey there's been three million posts since I asked this last night Too many points to keep up or answer, there is a thin line between being tolerant and accepting of another faith or belief and ridicule for what seems absurd. I realise that some see our spells as silly or daft and/or that we're mental for doing it, yet there's no difference in theory between casting a spell for something or praying for something. In this context it's will, need and time.

But Coz has a very interesting point about different practices, whereas when we hear of a grown man having sex with a young teenager here it's illegal, immoral etc, and we're outraged even though its consensual. In another country its part of their culture and heritage, and perfectly acceptable. Many years ago my mate in his 30's left his wife and went off with the 14 year old baby sitter, although he's still with her now some 14 years on, it still makes me cringe sometimes. Because in our country with our laws, views and morals at 14 she was a child.

Going back to magic, all our paths vary greatly, and evolve as we go along them. Yet I find myself thinking, no, no when people say that all Gods are the same God. Because I started out believing that myself until my path showed me very different. So although I accept that some feel that all Gods are the same God, I don't believe it, because for me I feel it to be wrong based on what I now know and have experienced. I accept other ways of thinking as long as they fall into the categories that I call 'acceptable.' If a claim arises out of my 'acceptable' areas that gets really pushed in my face (like a reincarnated celtic priestess from Atlantis) then my tolerance then went out of the window and my sarcasm goes into overdrive.

And I think I'll have to leave this here because I'm now getting confused

That leads me to say Weatherwitch that in my experience it is generally other pagans who presume a higher level of tolerance and open mindedness on my part rather than non-pagans.

It sometimes seems to be one of those area's where "Politically Correctness" has gone into overdrive for some individuals. "Political Correctness" is all well and good until it reaches the stage where any actions become explainable, understandable and therefor viable in the eyes of the overly, incorrectly and misplacedly "Politically Correct". Anything does NOT go. Some things are quite simply morally wrong no matter how hard the overly politically correct try to justify them.

I generally consider myself to be a very tolerant and open minded person to the point where I almost become an agnostic on many idea's if I'm not careful. Whilst I previously stated that I have found the presumption of tolerence to be at it's most prevalent amongst other pagans; I have also encountered the few that are not open minded and profess a tolerence in themselves that is proven to be clearly lacking by their actions and comments.

I would personally, I'm afraid, have to fall back on the boring old cliche: "Live and Let Live" but with the proviso that we at all times attempt to avoid causing harm to others and more especially that we do not intentionally harm others in the course of expressing our rights and freedoms. Also that to some extent we have a moral duty to stand up and be counted by expressing our opinions when those fundemental principles of human morality are ignored or ridiculed by others.

Example:
I'm no great fan of wicca but I do continually hear the "....and harm none..." ideal being openly ridiculed by non-Wiccan pagans. What's wrong with attempting to harm none?
We're obviously going to fail in this as often as we succede as we are all very far from perfect but to mock that good intent cannot indicate ay other than a selfish and somewhat aggressive thread of personality trait running through those ridiculers.

Niether of these two previous remarks of course generally are really any less applicable to non-pagans than to pagans. Thank the gods that we are generally all, both pagan and non-pagan, individuals with individual preferences and thought processes.

In my opinion we should be as open minded and tolerant as any given situation dictates when viewed alongside reasonable morality and simple common sense.
The individuals views of morality and common sense are surely what is at question here though.

Sorry to sound like an old hippy yet again.

Hi Dryad,

"Basically, we're no different than anyone else...although, having said that, I've never met a pagan who's a Republican."

I'm a Republican! The sooner we depose the Royal family and set up an independent Scottish Anarcho-Socialist Republic the better. Right On!

I think Pagans either tend to be a bit more tolerant than the norm, or people who are a bit more tolerant than the norm are perhaps more likely to discover they're Pagan, Please note these are intended as broad generalisations, there are obviously Pagans around who are neither open-minded nor tolerant, but there may be a few tendencies in Paganism that broadly promote tolerance and open-mindedness.

Many, probably most, Pagans who believe in deities seem to be polytheists of one sort or another. If you honour many Gods and Goddesses, or many forms of divinity, then there seems little reason to take against others because they don't describe what's sacred to them in the same way you do. You may have lots of other reasons for taking against them but probably not that one.

Pagans, IMHO, tend to base their spiritual beliefs on their own experience, rather than on set doctrines. An experiential approach tends to promote open-mindedness, a thinking in terms of 'my truth' rather than 'The Truth' in religious matters, because one persons' experience tends to be a bit different from anothers even when they're (possibly) experiencing the same thing. And that in turn tends to encourage a mythopoeic understanding of such things, a recognition that experience of the Gods and Goddesses can't easily be set down in words so that others can readily understand it in the same way you did, but can be hinted at, or alluded to, in ways that people who've had the same sort of experiences can recognise.

Most, though not all, Pagans tend to have a very great respect for nature whether or not they actually worship it. When you study nature, you appreciate the importance of diversity. And that probably encourages us to view social diversity as a good thing. To base our sense of the right way to live less on everybody thinking the same way than on recognition of the way a degree of tension and dialogue between different beliefs and attitudes makes for a better and healthier society.

I don't think Pagans are any more tolerant, or any more open-minded, about arrant nonsense, wishful thinking, or self-delusion than other folk. But perhaps, when we see other folk getting on with their lives through values very different from ours, and see it works for them, and see no threat to us in it, we're much more likely to think "Fine! Good for them and good luck to them" than we are to seek to convert them to our own ways of thinking.

BB,

John Macintyre

John, I think Dryad was referring to the American voting system

I'm not a very tolerant person - I get annoyed and irritated easily (as anyone who reads my blog or live journal will discover - every day a new rant) by the smallest things. However, when I find I am getting so annoyed and narked by something that it winds me up even to think about it, then I know it's time for me to leave it alone. The amount of times I've gotten pissed off by something on this site (amongst others, i do this all over the net) and just slunk off quietly to ignore it and let myself calm down before coming back and testing the waters again is quite ridiculous. I find myself getting less and less tolerant as I get older too. As a teenager I was ever so liberally minded....how reality changes a person.

Hi Elunedd,

"John, I think Dryad was referring to the American voting system smile.gif"

I know. My partner's a US citizen from a staunchly Republican family. Hence the smiley

It was intended as a laboured joke on diversity. Some day I'll get the hang of these emoticon things. Hopefully before I'm dead

BB,

John Macintyre

But are we all walking towards the same goal? How can you make that assumption? Christians view themselves as walking towards Heaven or Hell, Buddhists view themselves as walking towards the total annihilation of the self, Thelemites view themselves as walking towards achieving the highest possible sense of self, I'm view my self as walking towards the Hall of my ancestors. We don't all have the same goal, we're not all walking towards the same place.

I presume then that he hasn't visited many American Heathen lists or bulletin boards. Right to bear arms Republicans seem to be in the majority there. Only the ocassional liberal in sight.

Hi Whitgar,

"I presume then that he hasn't visited many American Heathen lists or bulletin boards. Right to bear arms Republicans seem to be in the majority there. Only the ocassional liberal in sight."

I support the right to keep and arm bears myself, and have long had the belt-buckle to prove it

'Republican' strongly implies, but does not inevitably mean, right-wing in the USA, while it strongly implies, but does not inevitably mean, left-wing in Scotland. I guess that means it's one of these things we should try to be tolerant of, and open-minded about

Best Wishes,

John Macintyre

Hi Whitgar,

"But are we all walking towards the same goal? How can you make that assumption? Christians view themselves as walking towards Heaven or Hell, Buddhists view themselves as walking towards the total annihilation of the self, Thelemites view themselves as walking towards achieving the highest possible sense of self, I'm view my self as walking towards the Hall of my ancestors. We don't all have the same goal, we're not all walking towards the same place."

I almost agree with that. I don't think we are all walking towards the same goal. Personally, as a Pagan, I'm not walking towards a goal at all. I just like walking, find the journey really interesting wherever it's going, and thank the Gods I'm able to keep going. The only certain destination's my death and I don't need to go there because it'll come for me.

I remember someone telling the story once about all religions being like paths through a great dark forest, a journey to an end. He was probably thinking of 'Pilgrims' Progress' or some such. Then a Pagan interrupted to say they weren't trying to find the path through the forest. They liked the forest! They were far more interested in snoozing under the trees, carving bits of wood, going skinny-dipping in convenient lochs, poking about under tree roots, shagging in the bushes, and finding where the mushrooms were.


OK, in a sense this life is a journey, but maybe it's also the place where we're going to. Before we're born, while we're alive, and after we're dead. Not so much a goal as a process that allows us to journey.

Best Wishes,

John

You mean like a kind of Pagan Forest Gump



That makes sense, and yes the only destination we can all actually be 100% sure of is death. Hopefully this is only a place along the way rather than the final destination.

In frith,

Whitgar

Hi Whitgar,

"You mean like a kind of Pagan Forest Gump smile.gif"

Yes, but without the good looks, the outrageous luck, or the smart scriptwriters

Best Wishes,

John Macintyre

but were all special! no matter what label we give ourselfs or what path we tread (if any)

Who was the American president famed for saying "I disagree with everything he's said, but I'll defend to the death his right to say it"? Or words to that effect.

I think pagans are very tolerant (I know I am) of peoples difffering views, especially when compared to followers of some of the "My way is the only way" religions.

But respecting a persons right to believe in what I might consider a load of old tosh, that doesn't mean I won't say I think he's talking cobblers.

Ever so politely, of course.

B