Everytime, I watch some show, to represent evil, they always show
a pentacle or pentagram.. sooo annoying!!!!!!!!

Honestly, it was a huge obstacle, for me, at first, when I got into paganism.

It'd been soo programmed into me~ thru movies, tv, etc..

So does anyone have a historical slant on it.. or other info?

Thanks
Whispered~

Know what you mean. Maybe it's because the Satanists are using it. I suppose it was the church who didn't like people reveering the five elements. I wouldn't even be surprised if the Satanists stole this element simply from the natural religions.

There are the same problems with Nordic/Germanic mystique signs. Take for instance the Swastika which is the symbol of the sun but could never ever be used without provoking bad feelings. The same is true for most signs as many military units and political organisations used - from the Odal Rune to the Wolve's Hook. Matter of factly, most of them are even still banned in Germany today.

The celtic cross which had been the sign of the People's Socialist Party of Germany (banned in the 50's as direct successor of the NsDAP) has just been legalised a couple of years back if used in religious context. There are similar stories with symbols like the Wolve's Hook, which also was used as a symbol of the Werewolve's (in the middle ages, not the ones in the 40's) and the farmer's revolution. They are used by towns and villages as symbols yet using them can cause big trouble (even though the judges are sympathetic if there is no right-wing background).

I know what you mean, whisperwind. I had this misplaced perception of a pentacle being part of satanic / evil / selfish / all negative things. It took me a while to understand the full meaning of the pentacle and, even after I bought one, I still didn't wear it too often. The more I understood, the more beautiful it became.



I was recently reading about witches using the pentacle salute in ritual. Has anyone used it or does anyone know about it?

trw

it's really terrible with the whole pentagrams are evil concept!

ppl are finding it easier to say they are gay/bi etc...

rather than being proud and saying they are pagan!

we really do need to make a stand and enlighten the general populous!

the what? can someone enlighten me?

Most of the 'evil' image of the inverted pentagram is thanks to media portrayal, but there is a point in history where you can see the 'rot' set in. The pentagram itself was, a long time ago, sacred to Hebrews and Christians as representative of the five books of the Torah and the five wounds of Christ, but was forgotten as a Christian symbol following Constantine's time as Roman Emperor (the growing Church chose the cross instead of the pentagram as their 'leading' symbol).

The first person to have recorded the inverted pentagram as having 'evil' meaning was Eliphas Levi, who drew two representations of the pentagram ; one 'upright', the other inverted. The upright image featured the five points of man with the head upright, known as the Microcosmic Man, with the 5 elements represented by the four limbs and the head (spirit). The inverted pentagram was christened the Goats head or Baphomet sigil and was adopted by Anton LaVey as the symbol of the Church of Satan.

Lest we forget... often the media portrays witchcraft as evil and pentagrams as evil because the story requires the drama and is taking a Christian viewpoint. In the Christian viewpoint we are doing something evil. To someone who is taking their scriptures literally we are worshipping the devil, we just may not realise it. That's fine by me, if they want to believe that. Who knows? When we pop our clogs we may find they're right after all. The Christian viewpoint exists, in movies and whatnot it's a device to further a story, everyone knows who is 'good' and who is 'bad' and who to root for. Simple. Not really worth worrying about.

I prefer to think that when we pop our clogs its the christians who will find out we all were meant to explore the witches path as the true path. I'm not the only one who sees this. Changing water into wine, calming a turbulent sea - sounds wiccan to me.

Could happen too, although as Christianity is thousands of years old and Wicca is 50 years old which do you think borrowed from which?

Ach it's not something I care to expend energy on really

All religions seem to borrow at some points look at the Romans when they conquered an area they didn't get rid of that God they just amalgamated them. Then Christains built churches on many of the old pagan sites and the pagan movement seems to have lots of other religous overtones or should that be undertones... I guess its all down to the practicioner in what they keep or throw away.

In my view Christians are the ones starting a bunch of stuff of ever
single other religion, or thing. Almost everything is evil to them, Gays/bis
Pentagrams, Wicca/Pegan. I really find it annoying, there were a few
times in history where teh Christians tried to get rid of Wicca/pegan Because
they where "evil"

.... god

If by pentacle salute you mean drawing a pentacle in the air as a greeting/farewell then I saw one yesterday. As the wicker coffin of his wife was hidden behind the curtains a friend of ours bade farewell by drawing a pentacle, it was very moving and exactly right for the moment.

Well WS you have to understand that in the concept of Christianity there is just the one God. YHWH (though they rarely call him that) and the only way to deal with the occult is through him (though again they rarely consider the practice of their faith as dealing with the occult). Their teachings directly state that anything other than God is evil (and therefore any other gods that we might be worshipping are really at best evil spirits and at worst Satan in disguise (even then the evil spirits work for the devil anyway)).

This really is no different from Wiccan's believing in the threefold law or the rede. I don't believe in either and certainly find the way that some Wiccans interpret the rede as laughable. However that is how they are taught and it is the same with Christians. If you disregard the basics of your faith then how can you truly call yourself a Wiccan or a Christian.

The problem when it comes to things like pents, paganism, gays and bis is that many Christians just don't understand what its about and so they retreat to interpretations of the Bible (particularly when it comes to gays/bis where they seem to find very specific instructions by reading some very ambiguous passages) or they don't bother to look past the media hype (particularly with regard to neo-pagans like us or the pentacle which has, as described above, positive Christian symbology).

The only way to improve this is to try and educate Christians, which may not be a simple task but while many may have their head stuck firmly in their own interpretation of WWJD many others are willing to listen and learn. They might not accept that your POV is correct (and lets face it if they did they couldn't strictly be Christians) but they do understand that you have a different POV.

It all really comes down to generalisations - they see all pagans as baby eating devil worshippers and some pagans see all Christians as witch burning sanctimonious prats.

get past the generalisations and you find people.



Well in the most cases they tried (and succeeded) in converting pagans to Christianity - often through less than 'Christian' methods.

I don't know of any 'historical' records of Christians trying to get rid of Wiccans though, after all Wicca has only been around for around 50 - 60 years.

Kev

I was taken by surprise when I learned that there are also gays OUTSIDE the catholic church.

If you are seriously interested in why the church is doing what it is doing I would advice you to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

<http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1574551094/qid=1116089070/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl/202-4619457-5390266>

This is can be compared to a programme of a political party. This also explains on a dogmatic level why they are so generally anti-sexual. "Semen is a blessed conveyor for new life that god has given us to be installed in the wombs of our lawfully wedded wives and putting it ANYWHERE else is a sin. Blah, blah, blah."

And after reading this book one also understands why the popes have to maintain their point of views on abortion, the use of condoms and all the other sh8 if they don't want to move away from the actual core of their believe.

And the reason why the curch is so specifically against everything pagan (Wiccan etc.) are to be found in the curch's history. It was the first religion they were fighting when they came into power as Roman state religion and started to expand. This was a hard fight which took them centuries and many important doctrines were developed during it.

But they have stolen so many things from it to make it more acceptable to the people they "converted". The whole light and sun aspect (as in the halo) had been taken from paganism.

Btw. the church found a very interesting way to deal with the Mithras cult. The Mithras cult was equally as Christianity a salvation cult which existed before Christianity and was spread all over the Empire. It was most popular with soldiers. It origignated in Persia. - The church condemned it as devil's work and explained the similarities with the older cult by saying that the devil had watched Jesus and his story and afterwards WENT BACK IN TIME to create the Mithras cult to make it a mockery of Christ and the curch.

Odin statt Jesus!

S.

Thank you for that post that cleared up alot of stuff, it is annoying

Yeah, but for a while there Christmas was banned because partying was evil.

I think some people just can't get past the idea that religion should make you feel mournful and guilt-ridden. Which mine doesn't.

And historically the Christian persecution of Pagans was less about suppressing evil and more about suppressing local ideas and freedoms (and the honouring of the female) by a centralised male-dominated power-hungry heirachy. They even burned their own people for daring to translate the Bible from latin into local dialects, because that might return control to the common people.

The Church was the Old Boys Network of it's day.

B

EXCUSE ME??!!

I happen to be gay and pagan, and am openly extremely proud of both.

You could say I've come out of both the closet AND the broom cupboard.

B

But he is right, really. I only wanted to tell my parents that I was a pagan but I couldn't. I took the easy way out. Now Steve and I are getting married in Amsterdam next month.

Kidding, just kidding. But I wouldn't have a problem to admit to anything I am or believe in. Everybody should be proud of themselves and the unique way they are. And as the old German proverb says: "Do right and be afraid of noone."

Pagan pride,

S.

Baldur,

I'm sorry to hear you couldn't tell your parents you're pagan.

Don't know anything about your situation at all, but in the past when I've wanted someone to know something I couldn't quite find a way of saying, I've done a quick bit of redecorating with posters, books lying around in unavoidable places.

Then invited them round for coffee.....and let them do the asking.

Would they really be so horrified if they knew?

My heart goes out to both you and them. It's not easy for a parent to say "I totally dissaprove of your lifestyle but I love you anyway". Or for a child to do so either.

My dad's 84 and very anti gay, but tremendously supportive of me in every other way. He taught my last girlfriend how to re-wire a lighting circuit.

And one of my son's (early 20s) is a strict Roman Catholic. He brings round photos of his latest pilgrimage to Lourdes to show me, in the front room with a 3ft pentacle hanging on the wall.

So it is possible. Just not easy.

I wish you all the best.



B

I got the joke about getting married. didn't twig you were joking about the not telling your parents bit though until I'd written a bloody great long post.

So it's official .............I am a twit.

I confess all.

You may shoot me now

B

I haven't told my parents, and yeah, it's because I'm a bit afraid of what they would say. I don't want them to mock me for it, and I'm sure they would. It doesn't bother me that much really. If they haven't guessed by now though then they're denser than I thought.