An interesting questions that came recently up.

Is money in and of itself evil?

and

Can the pursuit of money be brought in accordance with a pagan path?


What do you think?

What on earth has money got to do with being a pagan?

Whether or not you view money as evil or not has nothing to do with being a pagan but is to do with your political beliefs.

How on earth can money be evil? Money is simply a mechanism to enable the trading of goods in a complex society. We all need goods and throughout man's history he's always needed to trade goods, money simply allows us to do that. Without money we would not survive, we live in a complex society, we need money.

Try getting the Inland Revenue to agree to you paying your taxes in home-grown turnips, or try shoving a few home-grown green beans in the slot of a parking metre; after a while the novelty of going without money would soon wear off.

What is 'un-pagan' about the puruit of money? I don't see any reason why one should have to adopt a 'self-sacrificing' approach towards money. There's nothing 'un-pagan' about the pursuit of money. There's nothing 'un-pagan' about being rich.

Money itself is just a means to and end, and is inanimate.
What can be evil is peoples attitude towards it.
Medical equipment costs money, housing costs money as does food etc
atomic bombs cost money.

People are good; people are evil, how they use money is the question.

Part 2 of the question:you've got to live haven't you?

I'm goint to take Baldur's question in a different light, as it particularly relates to me. As most people know and getting tired of me saying, I'm a marketing student and will graduate soon.
After that I'll hopefully be working for some company that is willing to pay me in exchange for part of my life span.
Now is what I am doing particularaly pagan in nature? It's not really non-pagan, but not really pagan in it's ideals. Or if you want, everybody in another thread was going on about links about paganism and art, or creative people being drawn to paganism. Is there an antithesis to art or creative things then?
Is there an exact opposite, an area in which there are actually very few pagans? I'm taking it that Baldur believes there is a path that doesn't attract ( as many) pagans and that seems to be in the financial sector/business sector. ( IT doesn't count, it attracts everyone form a wide variety of places. Same as admin.)
Sorry if I'm wrong Baldur, but I'm trying to answer through trying to see the connotations as well as the question!
But can the "pursuit of money", those whose entire career operate around it, be brought into a pagan correlation? Maybe so and maybe no, it maybe they celebrate two seperate things; the artificial man made systems that operate and the reverence of nature instead, and it's paramount importance instead.
That's not to say you have to choose one, you just have to be flexible with both IMHO. Not always an easy thing. But canit be done through pagan ideals, welll yes I would say so as there have been those who 'have done it their waaaaayyyyyyyyy', often just through sheer strength of will. There is no reaosn why it can't but yet, practically maybe pagans will just naturally follow other paths.

Well money is just the modern form of wealth. In the olden days it was cattle, land or something else.

Its not the pursuit of money or the possession of it that can be unethical its the way you pursue it and what you do with it when you have it.

I'm not sure that Pagan paths in general place any great virtue on poverty........nor do they tend to see suffering through poverty as a shortcut to heaven.

The desire to generate money is not unethical in any way. Dumping on others in the process is unethical. I run my own business and so it is geared to generating money. If I do really well and meet the needs of my customers, I get richer. Not immoral, just a sign of success. So long as the desire for money does not become overriding in my life how can it be at odds with my Paganism?

mike

Well, we all have to live and most of us can't pay the gas bill with a card reading so we have to indulge in earning the stuff. Nowt wrong with that. How you do it is important and what you do with it once you have it.

I have never yet met a rich pagan but I don't think that makes the two mutually exclusive. One of the vows I took in the Order was "to banish greed and never take more than I need", which I think is a pretty fair way to sum it all up. (This does NOT apply to red wine!)

There is Triodos, the bank that lends to Earth-friendly projects. Banks can be ethical. I don't know if that links them to pagans, probably does in some vague way.

Yes, we live in a society that uses money as its lifeblood, and of course we have to make a living.

Only, I have always thought the purpose of life was to make enough money to stay alive, and this is certainly the belief that Society fosters in us. But recently I have come to a different view. Now, I see that the purpose of life is to gain experience and to grow, through interaction with other beings. and the pursuit of wealth is just the mechanism whereby, on this earth at this time, we have chosen to practise relating to one another.

I can imagiine another kind of existence, where money is not in use. If there are other dimensions which are non-physical, then in those places we would not need to find food and we would not need money. Even if it was a physical world like this one, but we all lived as the animals do, foraging or hunting (as indeed they say we used to) we would not need money.

But on this earth at this time, we have constructed a society that uses money as a means of inrteraction and growth. It is not good or evil. It is simply the mechanism we have chosen to play with.

I suppose I do view money as evil, not that it is really, after all its inanimate. Simply, money is the thorn in my side, it is the main reason for my marriage going pear shaped, and my utter distrust of all things monetry and lol men with money! (dealing with money I should clarify)

Its all romanctized of course, but oh how I yearn for a more simple lifestyle where the success and value isn't based on money. Of course success has always been about money or posessions, still if I could find a wee cave, had the abilities and talents to live off the land I would be in heaven! lol.

Alas I need to earn the dough to pay for things, and part of me does sometimes think how nice it would be to have enough to let me just bugger off and do what I want. Not interested in extravagance, but just enough so I never have to put up with pratts in an office again, or keep my mouth shut when some pervert of a boss looks down my blouse because I can't afford to walk out after giving him a very loud and colourful peice of my mind! (or a swift knee to the squidgey bits )

I know, my ex's inability to manage money, isn't really money's fault, its entirely because he's a plonker, dunno, just sometimes wonder if we didn't have money problems and I wasn't so fed up and distrustful of him if, perhaps, maybe, we would still be married (well we are still married but you know what I mean) and relatively happy? But then, I've never been one for "what ifs" so I guess its a moot point.

Whether pursuit of money is compatible with paganism. Well, in theory I don't see a problem, a well adjusted pagan minded person with their priorities straight would, I imagine, be well able to combine the two and not compromise their pagan values. The cynic in me, however, rather suspects that money is something that can become all consuming and the more simple pleasures in life would get forgotten. Again, cynicism based upon experience. But, no, I don't see why being pagan should automatically mean poverty or eschewing well paid jobs etc. For me, money isn't the bee all and end all, if I find a job I like and it pays rubbish, so be it, solong I've got enough to pay my living expenses and a little left over for emergencies etc I really couldn't give a flying toss. Being happy is far far more important!

I do play the lottery sometimes, more often its when the debts begin to crowd again and I find myself feeling desperate, wanting an easy way out... but then life isn't easy, and I got myself into this mess, and I will dig myself out.

No. Personally I don't have a problem with people being wealthy, providing it has been gained ethically (as opposed to legally). If somebody has managed to gain their wealth through their own endeavours, by using their skills or talents, then they deserve it. If, on the other hand, it has been gained at somebody else's expense, then it could be classed as evil.



I can't see a reason why not, although I suspect the reason we aren't overwhelmed with rich pagans is because most would not see the pursuit of wealth as a top priority.

I think the points that were made are most interesting.

I would agree with Sherringham that money is inanimate and with all the others who also said that money is necessary to live.

I recently read an interesting book on the subject. The little Money Bible by Stuart Wilde:

<http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1561708291/qid=1116224269/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-4619457-5390266>

Even though this book didn't live up to my expectations to show me how to be a bit cleverer with money but it did open my eyes in many ways.

The basic assumption Wilde makes is that money is energy. I think that this is wrong. Money is a very powerful symbol of energy. - It only has it's power because we allow it. Even more so since they changed the material from seldom matels as gold and silver to paper and cheap, common metals as copper.

I believe that this energy doesn't have any properties per se but only reflects the mental constitution of the person who uses it. I therefore also think that the wish to earn money and the pursuit of money is ok.

The second point Wilde makes, that I find most revealing, is that most of us are conditioned to believe that wanting money is indecent. And due to this we are sabotaging our efforts to make money ourselves. And this is specially true to make easy money.

Poverty is glorified. Many cheap novels know the good hearted and lovely peasants or working class who are poor but honest on one side and on the other sidethe rich but evil and perverted upper classes who live their wicked lives without friends through the exploitation of others. The only ones who are allowed to be rich are those who started from a lowly background and worked their ways up the hard way and earned each penny by the sweat on their brows. Interestingly, if their children are born with a silver spoon in the mouth and turn out complete prats we don't like them either.

A true Christian way would also be based on poverty for example.

Having reflected on this point for some time I found many examples in my own life for this to be true. Times when I could choose between easy money and a hard road to earn it. I mostly chose the "honest" way of hard work - whereas the other wouldn't have been dishonest either. Following the same spirit Very describes in her entry that
she wont take the easy way out. But why?

And I am sure we have all seen cases of complete prats who are so self-obsessed that they don't see anybody else but themselves simply being showered in money and success. I think this is only true because they have a mental attitude of believing that they deserve it. Aren't we much better than those? So, we really deserve it! Don't we?!

And finally: Money or Love? Why do people always suppose that the one is excluding the other? It's a bit like saying that one should choose between a pair of scissors and fun. One is a material object the other is a mental state.

A valid point would be that people might only be with you because they want your money. But in this case money is only an amplifyer that brings the bad out that was there before. But in this case it's advisable to be careful that nobody takes advantage of you. But isn't this always the case anyway?

Money or Love? I'd take them both.

Since I realised that I started taking a £ 20 note with me when I go to bed and I make sure that I kiss the regina before I sleep in. Sorry, I couldn't help that one.

And I guess to ever be successful one has to change the mindset to a point where wanting money is ok (I don't mean Michael Douglas Wall Street style). Otherwise it wont be futile as there is something the psychologists call "cognitive dissonance". Cognitive dissonance means that we make our environment and actions fitting our blieves. And that is the key to all of this. We make our reality fit our believes, as the philosopher Hegel knew over a century ago and quite contrary to the marxist believe of dialectic materialism where the being is influenced by the environment.

Believe you deserve it and it fits in your path and you will be given.

Cheerio,

S.

I see no problem with having money, earning money, wanting to have money for luxuries, etc. Having money enables me to help others. I believe that we can only truly help others when we move from a position of strength. That means that we have to have our own lives in order. How can we offer spiritual counselling if our own spiritual or mental path is screwed up? How can we help organise events and happenings if we are unable to financially support those events? (I hate the idea of people short on cash dipping into their pockets to back events.) Having spare money means that we can support others, groups, happenings, etc. financially.

I think problems happen when people want money for the sake of having money, rather than for what that money can do for them and other people.

bb
Rhiannon
(easy to spot at pagan events cos I'm the one in Gucci )

Maybe because of the conditioning you describe Baldur but also because there is a great deal of satisfaction from knowing I've solved the problem myself. I've never been particularly ambitious, I've never felt the need to have tons of money, or to try and earn it. I appreciate the money I receive for the work I do and I am content with that. I've never been ambitious, so I doubt I'll ever be rich, it doesn't matter to me. I don't think that my lack of monetry ambition is conditioning that money is evil really, some people seem to be very ambitious or just plain lucky when it comes to money. Others are content with what they have and don't see the need to strive for more money. I find it quite saddening that so many people in this world seem to believe that money will bring happiness, and this is simply not true, it may make life easier, but happiness comes from within.

I only see one possible connection between our paganism and our view of money.

That is simply that many of us (not all) have a tendency toward being "Tree Huggers". This sometimes tends to express itself in a contentment with less where money is concerned. To some of us, money is necessary but not particularly important beyond providing us with convenient a means to live in the modern world.

Having said that I think that I'd be fairly safe in saying that none of us would turn our noses up at a little more of that convenience.

What makes the difference is; does money drive us?

For some "ambition" means little more than that, often in conjunction with career advancement but for many of us "ambition" is something else.

I think what you say is so true. Money can really be used to support others.

But also support and the wish for money can go to far. I am rather careful with giving my money to organisations (not because I am a stingy git but because I hate seeing people getting rich on the believes of others)... I remember this pagan group a couple of years back that wanted 50 Deutsch Marks for "de-babtising" people. And that's just taking the Mick.

The court in comparison only wanted 40 DM for deregistering me as a catholic - which meant that I wouldn't have had to pay anymore monthly church tax had I done it (one month I paid over 150 DM).

Church tax??????????

I echo Very's sentiments baldur; can you please clarify?

The pagan path could lead to much wealth in many respects and one of those is money. I can't see anything wrong in pagans wanting and having lots of money. 'An it harm none'.

I do see it wrong when anyone, pagan or christian, jew or moslem doesn't appreciate the money they have BUT I tend to think wealthy pagans do attribute the success and wealth they have to greater forces and remember to repay nature by honouring the earth in some way. The others tend to neglect nature to become weathy. A pagan could be wealthy from selling many good books or services but would not be wealthy from what a monotheist could be happily wealthy from, that is owning a factory that pollutes the environment, or hiring cheap labour in a third world country. A pagan will remember nature when spending their wealth too by buying smaller cars for example, while a monotheist will buy a large gas guzzler that destroy the ozone layers.

Pagans are more ethical than non-pagans and their wealth is generally used more appropriately for the good of all life forms. Therefore, yes, pagans should without guilt be delighted in their good fortune when it occurs.

Unbiased trw

A very good point - I choose to drive a small diesel Nissan Micra. Okay so it's the model that comes with all the bells and whistles, but it is also economical and doing less damage to the environment than other cars I could have bought. I think having money also gives people the option to choose. When I was skint I had to buy whichever car I could afford. Likewise having spare money means that we have the option to buy a large amount of organic and fairtrade foodstuffs. (Although I do refuse to pay twice the price for a can of organic baked beans!)

Rhiannon

Oh yeah! It's a German institution. It has a very long tradition. It started off in the middle ages when people had to pay their church tenth'. This being a tenth of everything they earned.

There always had been ways how the churches forced money out of people's pockets. The first time that a church tax as governement tax was employed was in the late ninetenth century under Kaiser Wilhelm II. It had still persisted in the Weimarian Republic and also in the third Reich. Herr Hitler did really have some "nice" arrangements with the churches. The church tax has always been a constitutionally fixed institution in the Federal Republic of Germany since its foundation in 1949.

You are registered under a certain denomination with the authorities and, in case your cult is officially recognised as church, the tax man takes a bit more money every month out of your pay pack and gives it to your church. People like us would simply not register and the matter would be forgotten. This is, only if your parents haven't registered you at birth, as mine (and nearly everybody elses') had.

If you deregister, as I wanted but didn't because they threatened me with disadvantages in school, the church will neither marry nor burry you. You are out!

If you stay in you still have to pay extra for certain services and they still expect you to donate lots of money.

And that's also why employer's in Germany HAVE TO ask you for your religion when you apply for a job.

And please don't think that this is everything. The churches get huge government funding. And if there is a school or a hospital that is run by the church under their name and rule, it's in truth the government (the normal tax payer) that pays most it. The churches only have to fund a minimal amount which they can claim back from their customers later on anyway (I knew a "Catholic" school who did this).

And all of this is a reason why being a priest is a great job in Germany, even being a catholic priest. They give you a house for free, lots of money and you even get a special budget for a "housekeeper".

So, let's all be happy to live in a country where the goverment isn't pimping money for the church.

Heil Odin,

S.

2 Points, Baldur:

What do they do with you if you deregister and then die?

What do they do if you declare yourself a member of more than 1 faith? It would cost a fortune to be an Ecclectic sort, wouldn't it!

If you die and you have deregister there wont be a service for you. - At least not one held by a priest of your denomination.

You know what, that's a good question. One could assume that this was depending of the various faiths you are following, if they are all recognised as churches by the government. But I guess if you tell them you are Ecclectic you are out.

This wouldn't help you a lot either as most of the churches want you to commit only to them and someone who isn't quite sure wont be accepted as a member anyway. In which case Question 1 will apply.

Oh, I thought maybe they just threw you over into Alsasce Lorraine

Blessings
trw

I don't know if its still applicable , but in Ireland the RC take 10% of your annual income. My mother give's 10% of her income, then bleats she's broke!!

Money in itself is not evil its people's attitudes towards it, if you are happy with what you got or whether you are materialistic to the extreme... yes we all like money it makes life alot easier, and its nice to treat ourselves to things now and again, but people like my brother who have to get every new gadget they see, only eats at expensive resturants etc but if his fiancee needs help with debts etc he doesnt give her any money, this really to me is the worst attitude to have and it bugs the life outta me.
so No I dont think money is evil just people like my brother are

I don't see how they can 'take it'. To take it, it'd have to be taken as a matter of course directly from your earnings without you having any choice in the matter. This doesn't happen, and would be illegal anyway under EU and international law. If people choose to give 10% then that's their choice, but having grown up in a Catholic family in Ireland I've never heard of this 10% demand by the Catholic Church.

I did say I don't know if its still applicable: but the EU has only been around for a few years the RC church has been dominating Ireland for far longer than that, and scaring the living daylights out of their congregations.
By saying I didn't know if its still applicable I'm referring to the past. My mother left Ireland in 1946 for good, only to return with us as children to see her family in the 50's and 60's, and it was the norm then.
There has been life on this planet before the arrival of the EU and your birth also

Not sure but I believe I saw ten years ago a TV programme on Ireland where they said that divorce was illegal because of the church - not only condemned by the church but simply not possible in Ireland.

If this was true and the church had such a strong arm over there I can well believe that they take over the government every month their tenth from the peasants like in the middle-ages...

You simply asked if it was still applicable, I simply gave you the answer. What happened before the arrival of the EU or before birth has no relevance to whether it is applicable now or not.

If I said that I don't know whether bear-baiting is still legal in England, and you said that no it isn't, then what would be the point of me then telling telling you that there was life before your birth and that bear-baiting existed in Shakespeare's time?

That's true, divorce in the Republic of Ireland was illegal until 1995, but it was illegal because the Irish Constitution (1937) forbade it, not because the Catholic Church forbids it. This constitutional ban was overturned as a result of a public referendum in 1995; the yes vote for a change in the law won by a wafer thin margin (50.2% for yes, 49.8% for no). A previous referendum in 1986 voted to keep the ban on divorce. Like it or not, until very recently the majority of people in the Republic of Ireland wanted to keep the ban on divorce.

I was born in 1948 , not Shakespeare's time. Try to keep the time lapse in proportion, and not a pointless comparison

Or alternatively, let this tangent end there.