This topic comes from a subject we got onto at the East Lancs moot. Most of us have heard the horror stories, some of us have been unfortunate to have experience of this.

Every community has 'bad apples' and Paganism is no exception, generally they're known as being so by word of mouth, but what about the newbies that are coming into Paganism? Those that are naive, vulnerable and easily manipulated? Do we have a responsibility to police ourselves in that respect and just how far should we go with that policing? What should be the reaction to those that exploit newbies for their own ends? Who would decide who does the policing?As that would imply creating a central organisation for the purpose or would Covens sign up to a scheme to police their area? Would organisations simply name and shame them or would binding them be more feasible?

Personally, I am undecided on this issue as it's such an ethical grey area so I'm throwing it out to you , kind villagers....what's your take on this issue?

I don't think it would be viable to actually have organisations 'policing'

The only effective way I can really see to help the situation is to educate as mich as possible.

Make sure all newbies know what is and is not acceptable to be asked to do etc in a coven, and where to go if they suspect something is wrong.

>>I don't think it would be viable to actually have organisations 'policing'


Well yeah, but it's an interesting idea. Then again, we'd need a level of community that we currently don't have. IMHO there's too much infighting in Paganism about the who's better than who.

Yes, I agree. I think it is far more plausible to perhaps have an Essex Wiccans group etc, something more local and specific for different paths and regions.

Badger, will you stop posting so bloody fast, I'm trying to write a story!

lol sorry! I am bored

Paganism is quite closely analogous to the martial arts, lots of different styles and if you do it wrong you can hurt people. In this country martial arts are pretty much ignored by the Sports Council and most groups are either tied to a single teacher or part of small associations which cover the necessities such as licenses and insurance. Reputable teachers are usually part of an association with the more esoteric styles being members of all-style or freestyle organizations. This gives the newcomer some assurance that the teacher is at least recognised as teaching a valid style (as in not something he's cobbled together from Bruce Lee movies and episodes of Monkey) and that he has something to lose if he hurts people unnecessarily. The system is entirely voluntary and works pretty well as long as there is a degree of common sense and professional etiquette. This could be a useful model for Pagan groups, for instance you might have several different Wiccan associations, some for trads, some for non-trads, some insisting on a minimum of core teaching, some allowing just about anything but each association providing access to resources and services according to need. I'm a big believer in cooperation but I realise that many people would recoil in horror at such a system so it could only ever be voluntary. The PF and groups such as PEBBLE, CoBDO etc. seem to be going this way but I'm sure much more could be done if it was wanted.

I think the best way to go would probably be a combination of elders, more experienced practitioners and people who hold authority of some kind watching out for the newbies, and the newbies themselves being treated as adults (and who hopefully are always adults) with responsibility for checking things out, protecting themselves and educating themselves as to what is reasonable and what is not.

Some nasty old man (or woman) at a moot asks you to go skyclad in a little ritual back at his place? You can always say NO - and other people at the moot can tell him to back off and give you the warning if they feel its necessary. I think though, treating newbies as if they have no idea of what's comfortable for them and what isn't is kind of patronising - we can't shield people from nutters in paganism any more than we can protect naive people totally in the world at large. Perhaps it isn't that good to try... you only get rid of naivete through experience.

I'm not sure how effective something more officical than responsibility and common sense would be here. Obviously it makes a hell of a lot of difference where children are involved, but I don't think most practicing covens/groups etc would accept children without their parents anyway.

Good question... and is east lancs really that bad (moving to Preston soon...)

Oak

>>Good question... and is east lancs really that bad (moving to Preston soon...)



NO, is it heck! East Lancs moot is a very friendly moot. We were just discussing it in general. I've come across those stories in Newcastle, when I lived there and have spoke to Pagans from other parts of the country who have experienced/heard horror stories of these kind of dangerous pagans. It's not a regional thing. You can find these people everywhere.

It is worrying when you hear these horror stories, whether they relate to paganism or anything else.... as Elswyth says, every community has it's resident nutters.

I do get asked from time to time if I can put someone in touch with a mentor, a coven, or a teacher.... and have even been asked if I will teach what I know to some of them (not something I would feel at all comfortable with!)

I usually refer these people to one of the bigger organisations, like CoA or the PF, but it would be nice to be able to pass them on to a group or person who I know personally to be reputable.

I'm in the process of putting together a local network of pagans of all paths, I'm still in the very early stages.... one of the reasons behind the East Lancs moot was to see what people thought of this idea. While for the most part, we would be about giving local pagans a chance to get to know each other, and be able to organise events like camps, daytrips out to local areas of interest, and good old pub moots too, it would also be a point of contact for new pagans, or new-to-the-area pagans, to be able to find out about whats happening round here, and to be able to talk to more experienced people before deciding what group/organisation they are going to approach for more formal guidance.

My good friend, who has had a bad experience at the hands of a power-crazy, self-important, and frankly dangerous bloke, who set about 'teaching' her about paganism, did come through the other side, and since educating herself through books and talking to other people, has become a much stronger person. Not everyone is so lucky though, and she will be the first to say that she wishes someone had warned her about this guy.

I don't think it's feasible to try and 'police' pagan groups as such, but if we can provide a point of contact to allow any new/young/inexperienced/etc pagans to discuss what it is they are looking for, and be able to point them in the right direction, then thats all we can do - and hopefully it will be of help.

BB, Starfire

I must admit to having experienced one or two of the type mentioned. I would <i>love</i> to meet them again, now I know what I'm doing/talking about.

I think that the current fluffy stuff isn't helping - portraying Paganism as the last bastion of light & cuddles. I'm lucky to have my Dad, who has encyclopaedic knowledge & a very advanced bu11$hit detector, to nudge me when I need it.

I think the worst thing is that if a newbie meets someone like this at a moot & doesn't get the chance to talk to others, either they'll be drawn in or won't bother with the moot again.

I think we all need to take some responsibility for guiding newbies.
They need the Kev 's of this world pointing out to them!

cheers
ht

I was only joking... the story about the nasty old man asking newbie girl to come back to his for a bit of skyclad happened to me and that was no-where near lancs... like you say, there are nutters everywhere!

Paganism is more a movement than a community. Many, maybe even most are lone practioners or simply holders of certain loosely linked views. There can be no overall watchdog as there is no united body to watch over. Those who belong to groups must rule themselves and that means the membrs of those groups must do as they see fit about 'warning' people. What sort of authority could any 'council' wield but one of force (Hexing, excommunication etc)? There ARE dark gods that can be followed, who are we to get in the way?

I think we should put Kev in charge of this one

Those curtains would scare anyone into submission. Personally I'm quite worried about the curtain tie that he's using for a belt flying open and showing a little too much.

No seriously, I think that if I was at a moot and saw a newbie being targeted by a loon, I'd wait til the loon went to the loo and then discretely warn the newbie. Or I'd follow the loon into the loos and headbutt him...no I'm just kidding. I agree that having a good contact network for newbies is the most realistic way of trying to keep them out of harms way but after helping to bind one such person myself, I think that sometimes an individual or a group needs to take action. We're a contrary group, I mean, could you imagine the ruckus if someone tried to set up a policing council?? Could you imagine if they had uniforms? Could you imagine what those uniforms would be like? Poo, I'm at it again...going off on one.

It comes so easy

Interesting question Elswyth,

As many folk have already said, policing by the Pagan organisations is not really a solution. A little of this goes on already of course, but it's not really either practical or desirable to extend it much further. Folk who work for the PF, or other Pagan organisations, are simply activists and administrators, not police officers, and the community as a whole would not take well to any groups appointing themselves guardians over the rest.

As far as my experience goes, Paganism actually seems to have relatively few problems with anti-social or abusive behaviour. It happens, certainly, but probably to a lesser extent than in many other religious groups simply because the stable power-structures that predatory types seem to gravitate towards are largely absent. The best defence against this sort of thing is making sure that newcomers to the scene are encouraged to think for themselves, to seek information from many sources, to question everything they're told, to be deeply sceptical of claims of authority, and to learn to take responsibility for both for themselves and for the community. Confident, informed and assertive people with good friendship networks can generally look after themselves much better than any organisation could.

After all, most of us seem to come to Paganism in large measure because we do think for ourselves, are following where our thoughts lead, and have no intention of being told what to think or do by anyone! In general, that makes the community a rather unpromising hunting ground for predators. I've noticed a few such people over the years and they tend to be noticed, and marginalised, pretty quickly. The way in which information, gossip and informal warnings of one sort or another circulates pretty rapidly from one end of these islands to the other is very helpful here. Most predatory individuals I know of (and it isn't many) seek to isolate their chosen victims, control their access to information, and make claims which would never stand scrutiny in the wider community, whilst moving in. Sometimes they succeed, but for the most part the conditions aren't right for them, in a growing subculture where most organisations provide sound and responsible information, nearly all Pagan gatherings are very welcoming to newcomers, and alternate sources of opinion and contact are almost instantly accessible through the internet.

Someone once told me "When you meet someone you think might be dodgy, don't trust your intuition - trust your telephone!". In my limited experience, most predatory types claim some kind of status, some kind of secret knowledge, some kind of record of achievement in the community, to lend a pretence of credibility. The community is still a relatively small community, where very few people are more than a couple of steps of acquaintanceship from everyone else. And predators, like most other creatures, leave tracks.

BB,

John Macintyre

I was brought up as a Roman Catholic, (now learning about paganism). The Roman Catholic faith does police itself or all ways used to. The Church I went to was a little church compared to some. If there was any sort of wrong doing (like child molesting) it was brushed under the carpet and the priest involved was moved on. My point is that if things are policed by the people who are involved then things are not policed properly, (if that makes sense). If there is any policing to be done it must be done by an independent body, other wise you tend to get cover-ups, so not to cause a bad reputation / publicity for the faith concerned.

I would agree with this. People who are "dangerous" will find a way and are inherently known for being manipulative, charismatic etc. "it's the nature of the beast", as they say, therefore having the ability to fool anyone. Trust is a valued commodity but a scarce resource today unfortunately....perhaps the Moderators would be able to set up a confidential sub-site enabling concerns to be shared/information to be passed on confidentially thereby enabling some checks to be made without damage being done to anyone's reputation?

Another consideration is the addage "a little knowledge is dangerous".

Where I'm going with this is that providing an environment where newbies or even long in the toothbies can discuss their predicaments with others who have more experience is also invaluable.

There will always be 'dangerous pagans' around, so maybe a few helpful pointers could be compiled by people with experience and moderated?

At least then it may get the warning bells ringing for new folk before they are drawn out of their depth, or comfort zone?

Being a relatively small and highly communicative community, we seem in my experience to police ourselves pretty well, the problem we face is that the predators tend to target young, impressionable and inexperienced who are new to the community.

I attend a moot that had one such predator who was found out quickly thereafter he was never left alone with a newbie and his name and description was discreetly passed on to the organisers of other moots in the area only, so that they can keep an eye out for the predator.

As with me a number of the members attend several moots. Once a predator knows that they have been spotted for what they will stop attending that moot and will not attend a moot more than once that someone from the original moot is attending, they will be aware that they will have been identified to the moot organiser, this will also discourage them from attending other moots, we cannot rid these people from society but we can minimise their opportunities to prey on the innocent..

What we need to do is to be vigilant and the ensure that the information is passed quickly, discreetly and accurately to the moot organisers as they are normally experienced and responsible people.

Storm Raven

Firstly, yes a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, but we all have to start somewhere……I am just starting on that path, after many years as a discouraged Catholic. Just because I’m new to paganism doesn’t make me a “dangerous pagan”.

Secondly, everyone is saying “dangerous pagan”, just because they may be a pagan, that’s not what makes them dangerous. It’s the person themselves. Take away there faith and they still would be dangerous.

This is probably contraversial, but I think dangerous pagans come in all shapes and guises, and I always wonder at those individuals who accumulate a 'following' of people who hang on their every word, who become a kind of guru. They may be articulate, write books etc, but whats their ultimate motive ? You have to have a certain kind of ego to 'lead' - the kind of ego that likes to be fed, and people can be impressionable, no matter what their spirituality or level of intelligence etc. If they say their motive is the furtherance of their spiritual path, you can still be sure they will keep popping the books out with a new 'slant' or the 'easy guide' will come out - because it lines their pockets without bringing any more substance to their spiritual 'quest'.


But thats just me