I was thinking, given how the proper definination of a hedgewitch is someone who can mix with the spirits and walk between the worlds (as opposed to the Llewellyn version of a hedgewitch being a solitary self-iniated wiccan) why is it that some people think only shamans do this? Shamanism as we see it today is the native amercian type not that of our ancestors, why have we moved away from one and adopted the other? Is it ease of information? There's plenty of Native American information out there (albeit as dodgy as some of the wiccan stuff but there you go!) and nothing but supersistion (or guesswork claimed as *fact*) of how our ancestors carried out their trance work and walking between the worlds.

Thoughts folks? Are there any other hedgewitches here who also do trance work etc, and why do you think that people don't seem to think that this is normal for hedgewitches believing it merely the domain of the shaman?

This definition of Hedgewitch is the first one I came across and I still have trouble with the mental readjustment when I hear people calling themselves one and meaning solitary wiccan. Once I said I was solitary to someone and they said 'ah you mean you're a hedgewitch!' That was a long conversation!

I think its partly that this wiccan definition has become the norm and there's a tendancy these days to look askance at a witch who says they walk on the (h)edge among some. It seems to be taken to mean something dark and nasty while these same people coo with wonder at distant cultures doing the exact same thing, but it could be as you say just that theres more information available about Shamanism, coupled with the romance of something from another culture.

I'm sure if Cerne reads this he will comment better than me, but I have always equated the tradtitional witch - ie the non coven centred Wiccan or Wiccan-wannabes- as being the equivalent of the village shaman. Maybe some of the techniques and motives may differ, but IMO they often fulfill the same role.

So who coined the term hedgewitch and what is the proper definition? I thought it related to hedge priest, which was a term applied to underground Catholic priests in times of protestant persecution.

Sorry Weatherwitch, I see you have given what you call the "proper definition" altready, but who defines it thus? Is it a dictionary definition?

It's the definiation as taught to me by those whose work predates wicca and its now modified versions. The modern definition of hedgewitch as being a solitary wiccan is a modern invention by America. Hedgewitch by its shamanic origins dates back some centuries at least

I've not heard of the term hedge priest during their perscutions but that isn't an area I've studied in great detail though, just more than generalised though

Yep, I have heard it said (and am inclined to agree) that the indigenous shaman of the british isles and areas of Northern Europe was the traditional witch (or in the context of this thread the hedgewitch). Both shaman and Hedgewitches have been describedn somewhat aptly as walkers between the worlds. I think the difference is that the tradional shaman is a pure animist whereas a hedgewitch/traditional witch may often incorporate deity forms into their work. But the division is a moot point as the deities are frequently more like agrandised spirits of place, which takes us straight back to animism.

(Oh, and Coz, I don't add an e at the end of Cern )

BB

Mike

I have to admit it wasn't a term I'd come across before coming here, but then I had steered clear of things magical for quite some time anyway. My loose personal interpretation of it was a " natural " witch, one that respected past magical traditions, lore, practises etc but did not follow a rigidly predefined path, and also natural in the sense that they are attuned in a seasonal and cyclic way to nature.

Shamanism exists across many cultures and spiritual belief systems I think, even though it has become associated in modern with Native American lore. For some reason there was a particularly large surge in US version being trendy in the 80's. I have done a little work in the past of something like a trance state along the lines of the " walking between worlds " variety. I don't think it is the exclusive domain of shamanism but I do think it should be approached with extreme caution. For me its difficult because its something I feel I need to practise on my own, yet don't feel safe to. There is just one person that I physically know that I have and could practise this with but we are not currently in a mutually conducive state in our friendship for that.

Hedge priest, not heard of that before but interesting snippet, ta Julai, I have heard " hedge - " used as a slightly archaic derogatory term for anyone who is thought to be a bit inferior and rootless in their profession or personality, ie hedge lawyer.

so a bad hairdresser with a bad atttitude would be a hedgetrimmer then?

Only when performing the full brazilian

I have to agree with LCC that this is what I believed the term, 'Hedgewitch' meant. Hehe - and here I thought I was studying to be a Shamanka, when actually I'm a Hedgewitch?

To quote John Matthews from his book, 'The Celtic Shaman: A Practical Guide', "Shamanism is very probably the oldest known spiritual discipline in the world. Visible signs of it's practice have been found in Australia, the Americas, Siberia, and parts of Europe, dating back to the dawn of history. "

Now I know that I am coming very close to the edge of moving the topic away from the term 'Hedgewitch' and into Shamanism, but what I'm trying to say is that perhaps there are many elements of Shamanism (as we have come to know it) in many different religions - perhaps these two terms have exactly the same meaning, but we have come to recognise the term 'Shaman' over 'Hedgewitch' for it's specific meaning? And perhaps because of the American term of the use of 'Hedgewitch', this particular word is undergoing a semantic shift to mean less about travelling between worlds and more about being a solitary wiccan (or even a 'natural' witch as LCC and myself have in the past interpreted it?).

Well, that's me done for the moment!

That would be a shame though wouldn't it? To let a really good and comprehensive term be remodelled? All due respect to Americans here but haven't they corrupted enough of our language? Isn't that our job?

I like the word Hedgewitch in it's original form, the way it was introduced to me was great. Nothing to do with plants as such by the way, if that's where the 'natural' witch connotation came from. More to do with hedges being boundary markers, a witch who patrolled the gap between the living and the dead, who walked with the spirits and the gods and the ancestors walked the boundaries of human experience, they walked the Hedge.

Much more evocative isn't it?

Yes - much more evocative Esk! It also has a little bit of history in it's term as well (I suppose with that connotation, a contemporary name for a hedgewith would be a 'fencewitch' ).

Although we see it as corruptions by America (and I mean that in the nicest possible way ), semantic shifts take place all the time - they have done in the past, they do so in the present and they will in the future. Take for example, the word 'gay' - it was first used to mean a prostitue, then it meant happy (don't ask me how it got from one meaning to the next) and nowadays it means homosexual. Also, the word 'meat' in the past referred to all foods, not just the flesh of the animal, but nowadays it is limited to the latter meaning. The reason for semantic shifting (IMO) is to make way for new terms and to extend the English language so that we can describe concepts, ideas etc more easily.

Fear the English Language student!

(Yehehee - can't tell you how long I've been waiting to use that icon - *cough!* sad, I know.)

Oh I know Amilyi, that's why I said corruptions were our job

The only problem is when the corruptions overtake the real meaning, and what was once a hedgewitch is now a what? A solitary self initated wiccan? Full of the negative connotations that go with that, (for some it's an insult, unintended but an insult all the same) and that is both for properly ininitated wiccans and hedgewitchs alike. Particularly within magic we see the words changing and within wicca it's entire history changes. I read a book recently, which being from the British Museum Press I expected to find it to be factual. Infact it mentioned that todays wicca being witchcraft a movement made popular by Starhawk or Ravenwolf (the same to me!) who were key movers in wicca being what it is today. On that bit the author has a point, but in this book about wicca there was no mention of Gardner whatsoever? How on earth can that be? History rewritten, words reused by the same ignorant authors who change the history.

Kind of off topic ramble there but never mind!

If the meaning of the word 'Hedgewitch' is changing, then who are the books in the shops with the word 'Hedgewitch' in their title targeted at? Are they targeted at the solitary, self-initiated wiccans, or the traditional Hedgewitches? Or is it a bit of both and I'd have to pick up and read a bit of them to find out?

Interested as I am into healing and travelling between worlds to help spirits, and what I once thought as Shamanism may also be found in Hedgewitchery, if I'm correct.

I would suspect that if you see a book in shop using the word it's probably meaning the wiccan version. As you say though, you probably wont' know if you don't at least have a flick through. I don't for one moment think you'd find a book combining the two as those who use the new definition don't on the whole recognise the old one even exists.

And if the publisher is Llewellyn then it's definately the American rewritten version, their authors are renowned for their altering of witchcraft and wicca

Sorry I started to put mike but we have a 'mike' too (and I can't spell ethier)

This is one reason, I come to the Uk, to learn new things and mostly bc alot of , things are defined by the "old ways", for lack of better words.

I had never heard that meaning, for hedgewitch either.. and still have to think about it! lol

Hedgewitch, in states, has usually meant a kitchen witch, someone who works with herbs, in the garden, cooks.. etc..

Walking between the worlds, i always took as a shamanistic view.. which I also study and love.

So interesting..

IIRC the origin of the term is that the Hedgewitch sits on the hedge (hope its not holly) and therefor sees both worlds.

The 'hedge' being the barrier between the day to day life in the village and the strange and unknown life 'out there' - simply a mundane explanation of the physical and the spiritual planes.

I'm glad to say I heard this definition before I heard the 'solitary wiccan' one as I fail to see why you should call a solitary by a grand title when 'solitary' is sufficient and explanatory.

When applied to a hedgewitch as a walker between worlds then the term makes more sense and is explanatory.

Still give the LL's a chance and they will probably give that a new title - Shamanic Wiccan perhaps

*sigh* Gods Coz, you're soooo behind with the times

Shamanic Wiccan's listed

Phylis Currot mentions Shamanic Wicca(n)

WitchVox article on Shamanic Wicca

And horror of horrors,

ShamanicWicca.com/ A money making, rip the ignorant off and teach them a load of crap site, where you too can download a section to learn about all for yourself for just a mere $10 a section *gasp* Don't bother, buy a pint instead, there's more intelligence in that

History rewritten already It's sad what google can turn up

I'd better send out for more Daleks

Oh, now I am more confused. A solitary is not necessarily a solitary wiccan, and someone who calls themselves a self-initiated wiccan can't really because wiccans are Gardnerian and they go about in covens. Are hereditary witches really shamans as well?

I think it's a mistake to think of words as fixed things, because you can't tie them down, people will keep using them with different intentions. There can be no fixed definition of any word. A word is only a label that gets stuck onto something that can be known but not pointed to. The word helps you to point to it. For now.

It was the same thing with the "Norsie" argument. You can't expect or force other people to use a word in the same way that you do. And the way you get at the essence of a thing is not by using a word as a label. It's by observing the thing itself. "By their fruits ye shall know them".

Arguing about terminology is an activity of the mind. It *may* help you to get clear about something, but equally, it may help you to reach the delusional belief that you are clear about something. For me, I want to learn how to perceive things directly, without words. I want to be able to meet someone and KNOW whether their energy will work well with mine, rather than ask them for a name they give the path they follow and see if it agrees with the name I give to the path I follow. This is real shamanism, if there is such a thiing.

But I like Hedgewitch, it is al least English. And the hedge between the worlds is lovely image.

I always thought of hedgewitch being derived from "edgewitch" - one who works on the boundaries between life and death, light and dark, mundane and spiritual etc. Growing up in the midlands, you can't tell the difference between the words "hedge" and "edge" anyway, the way they're pronounced round there...

and what part of a field do you find hedges? The edges! I think you'll find you're on the right track there Woodsong.

BB

Mike

I think it is likel;y to be the other way around- where did shamanism come into wicca? Again, I think that might be identifiable when thinking of traditional witchcraft as the british equivalent of shamanism. Philip Heselton's books might shed some light on that.



BB

Mike

Firstly I think it is amazing how words over time have done the equivalent of chinese whispers. So much stuff has been mislabled or relabled to mean different things. It's confusing as all hell. (what an interesting phrase that is!)

I also think it is amazing again to show how much certain aspects are inter-related. Especially going by the traditional meaning off hedgewetch and shamanism. Granted being in Australia I actually have great difficulty getting information on Shamanism even though I am a strong believer in animal guides / spirits. However due to lack of study and information I am left still searching for the correct path. Don't get me wrong, I am happy spiritually. But I haven't found the catagory I suit and well it isn't really that important.

However, this does interest me. Maybe I am a traditional hedgewitch and have been all along

What did people mean by Shamanism coming into Wicca?

I have been studying both 'Craft of the Wild Witch' by Poppy Palin, and 'The Celtic Shaman:A practical guide' by John Matthews, and I have to say, that they are both practically the same, I suspect that this applies to all practitioners of the 'Green Way' such as Hedgewitches and Green Witches (Please, forgive me if I'm wrong), So I think there is very little difference between the two, unless you could suggest that Hedgewitches are female Shamans, not saying that all shamans are male (excuding Shamankas for now) but they are probably more likely to be male.

Blessed Be xx

Hi, I agree with most, the Hedgewitch or Solitary Witch (especially if that path was chosen) has a lot in common with Shamanism, but not necessarily Native American traditions, the Norse 'Vitki' was the equivalant of a Shaman, but the 'Volva' practiced 'Seidr', which was a form of Shamanic Journeying.
These traditions are probably nearer to Wicca than Native American ones.

I consider myself Shamanic and Hedge Witch, and I'm male. I've got to say from my own personal experience I think that not whilst exactly the same there is an awful lot of overlap.