Now, I've clicked on New Topic, I've filled in the title... how on earth do I phrase this? Arrrgh!

I've been wondering about this for a little while. The only example I can give for myself is a digustingly soppy one but I'm really not talking about that exclusively.

How much of our lives follow a course that we don't control? I look at my life over the months preceding meeting Thunarr and I can see it taking me to a place where it was possible for me to be with him. Different timing would have resulted in a very different situation I'm sure. There is also the matter of how quickly it all rolled, we were very sure very fast and so far no change to feelngs developed at lightning speed when we first met.

I'm not entirely sure I go with the idea that we have absolutely no say in what happens to us, I'm not claiming a set out course for us all with no leeway but I do think there's something going on. It might be that there are things that have to happen to us and we will be guided there by circumstance but the result of the event is not set. There is also the idea that the gods, however you see them, sometimes take a hand in your life for whatever reason.

Any thoughts?

I am in a bit of a rush so can't really think this one out clearly but yes I believe there is pre destination, not sure where it comes from or why as not sure about the whole deities aspect in my personal belief system, also can't think of specific personal examples of proof right now except similar to yours, gut instinct based on a series of events that would seem otherwise strange. I don't think " the fates " or what have you are a consistent thing, I think there is a balance being strived for between guided things and man's own free will so no I don't think that we have no leeway.

Personally I do not believe in pre-destination of any sort. A belief in pre-destination means that either we have no free-will to act, or that our free-will actions do not determine future events. Either way, a belief in pre-destination takes away man's responsibility for consequences resulting from his actions.

We go where we go, and get to where we get to, purely as a result of our own actions and own will, along with the results of the actions and will of others around us.

To believe in some form of pre-destination takes away the fact that all actions have far reaching consequences and that we are personally responsible (nobody else, god or man, is responsible) for all the consequences caused (to ourselves and others) by our individual actions. The actions, of ourselves and others, weave together to become Wyrd, and it is Wyrd that determines future events.

I did address at the start that I didn't believe it controlled every action. I don't for one second think that because something might have taken me to where I am that I'm not responsible for my actions once there Whitgar.

I often muse about that. Like how is it possible to believe in something like predestination and control on a situation as well. When I think about it, I see it as a spider web. You start in the centre, you end up on the outside eventually and there are billions of possible criss crossing paths to choose from.

But using the example of the soppy kind. When hubby and I looked back at it we traced back several times we could have met before hand. That to me sort of really made me feel like it was meant to be. That our paths where so close so often it was kind of spooky.

So I do kind of believe in predistination but as I said, like a web, so many choices and possibilities but in the end you go from the centre out.

I would say to totally rule out any kind of form of predestination is narrow ... after all, it is up to us what we do with it, why shouldnt there be some give and take between freewill and divine forces ? no ones saying people arent responsible for themselves after all ???

But you are abdicating responsiblity about getting to where you are. It is not just a case of you simply being responsible for your current actions, but the fact that actions (by yourself and others) determine your future, so past actions will determine your present. (So the present cannot therefore be pre-destined).

The actions of gods (along with the actions of yourselves and others) can influence (they can influence it strongly) where you are presently, it is even possible that the gods might want you to be in a certain place or position (although I'm not sure we're individually really all that important to them), but your current (or future) position cannot be pre-determined. The actions of the gods, like the actions of all living things, weave together to form Wyrd, and it is Wyrd that determines future events.

If you say that something else is responsible for taking you along a pre-determined path to where you are now then you are in fact saying that your actions (and the actions of others) in the past had no bearing on your current position. If your destination is somehow pre-detertmined, then this is indeed passing the buck of responsibility for the consequences of your actions, as your past actions would have had no bearing on where you are now. If you think that your past actions do in fact have a bearing on where you are now, then where you are now is not pre-destination (unless of course you believe that your actions are pre-determined, in which case you don't believe in free-will). Whatever way you look at it, if you believe that events are pre-determined then individual responsibility for the consequences of actions is abdicated.

mmm. I believe in destiny, I think ever single person has a destiny, and I do believe there are various paths mapped out for us, however, it is up to the individual to choose the path they walk and in doing so take upon themselves the responsibility for their own lives.

Some choose to walk the path that leads to their destiny, either by design because they know it clearly in their hearts, or by accident. Others don't and sometimes stumble across parts of their lives that makes sense, before stumbling off elsewhere.

Life is a network of paths and it up to the individual to choose the path they follow, sometimes we are guided sometimes we are not.

Ah yes... Wyrd.

Not that's a weird one, if you'll pardon the choice of word.

Since everything impacts on everything else, our choices become limited. I wouldn't really call this predestination, but we are... guided by other events going on around and inside us.

For example, if we had completely free choice, I could go out right now and stab someone to death in the street. But I won't because of the past (the way I was brought up)and the future (the knowledge of what will happen to me if I do), events around me and my own self.

As I understand it, all these are part of Wyrd.

So, no, I don't believe we have completely free choice. We don't because of our own social programming for a start, as well as events that may or may not have happened in the past which will influence our choice, or even the gods nudging us one way or the other. I also don't believe in predestination, because I do believe we have some choice, allbeit limited.

But I do believe that we can be guided. That's what human instinct is, in part, as far as I'm concerned. Part of it is the "animal" part of us that sometimes kicks in to push us in the right direction for survival, and the other part is influence from outside.

Hope that makes some sort of sense!

T

Of course there is a limit to our choices and yes everything does impact on everything else, although the impact of these events/actions on your life and choices depends on the proximity of the action to yourself, your own actions therefore having the greatest impact



You still can choose to go out and stab someone, it is your understanding of the potential consequences of your actions (on yourself and others) that deters you from doing so, as well as the past actions (i.e. teaching and learning) of yourself and others whose orlog impacts closely on your own. But you still have the free choice to stab someone or not to stab someone, if you choose not to you are still making a free choice (influenced greatly of course by your past choices and those of others close enough to you for their orlog to have a significant impact).



Ok, perhaps not a completely free choice, because to make a totally free choice (in that sense of free) would require a person to live in a sterile vacuum, have no past and be isolated from all other things. A completely free choice (in terms of that sense of free) is not possible. But nevertheless it is the choices that we (and others) exercise that determine our future, om this basis there can be no predetermined future.



It does indeed make sense.

In frith,

Whitgar

Our path through life may not always be under our control but our actions and behaviour along that path certainly is.
Sometimes events don't always make 'sense' then clarity can strike.

I don`t believe in pre-destiny. I think we ourselves create our own destiny. Maybe
even on a day to day basis. BUT....we are influenced by outside forces. It depends
how you react to a certain incident in life. And there are many, many incidents to react to no matter how trivial or enormous they seem. It is those reactions that shape your destiny, not the incidents.

hmmm tricky one to answer.
i do believe in pre-destination to some extent ... there are certain things that i feel have been destined to happen. although i do also believe that we create our own destiny by the choices that we make, and that according to how we live our lives our destiny will change.
i guess i don't believe in pre-destination as this solid unchanging thing, but more as a framework which we live around.

It does tend sometimes to seem that there are things we're just Stuck With, whether we like it or no and whether we would have chosen it or no. (Oddly, this does often seem to relate to romantic whatnot.) The series of events which led me to become involved with the person I am were, frankly, very bizarre and tenuous; but, though we nevcer would have met without several apparently random coincidences, as soon as we began talking the Obvious Historical Inevitability of the thing took over quite immediately-- over my strenuous internal objections. Generally I'm quite the partisan of free will. After all, who exactly would have bothered to sit down and decide exactly what I and several billion other people are going to eat for breakfast every morning? However, I have begun to accept that maybe just maybe there are a FEW things that are sort of pre-planned. Why not, after all? If Reality (or the God/dess/e/s, or whoever you please) give us signs and guide us and whatnot, who's to say they don't occasionally also develop an opinion as to where we should end up?

Essentially, I don't like the idea much, but I'm forced to admit it's not entirely impossible in a limited sense.

I believe in pre-destination to a point. Some things are just meant to be. There are people in my life, and events that have happened which I really think were destined to be.

I'm not saying that I don't believe in free will and that we can't exhibit some control over the events and situations in our lives just some events really feel that they are meant to be and those tend to be the live changing experiences.

Q

The gods may indeed have an opinion of where you should end up and may indeed guide you, but this is not pre-destination. Your parents may have had an opinion on where you should end up and may indeed have guided you; if you ended up where they wanted you to end up would that also have been pre-destination?

The gods may guide you, but you are also free to ignore there advice and therefore end up somewhere else. So this is not pre-destination. Even if you choose to listen to the advice of the gods , and follow it rigidly, ending up where they want you to (assuming they have a plan for you), this is still not pre-destination.

Sorry Whitgar are you stating opinion or fact here? Sometimes with you it's hard to tell. Your opinions are ones which clearly mean a lot to you but try to remember that your truth may not be everyones.

The first paragraph of my last post was a question?

The second paragraph simply pointed out that if a person has a choice in the matter and this choice has an effect on where the person ends up then this is clearly not pre-destination.

A fact is only a fact if you, based on the evidence you have experienced, believe it to be so. If you don't believe something to be so then it is clearly not a fact as far as you're concerned.

Everyone has a right to voice an opinion, but I don't believe that everyone's opinions are always right. Everything I post represents my opinions, whether others view these as fact or not is up to them.

You believe that paths are mapped out for us I believe that there are no such paths mapped out for us. I really can't see what there is in my last post (or in my other posts on this thread) for you to take exception to.

In order to try to avoid this fact/opinion issue I've added a signature that will apply to anything I post.

I'm not sure how exactly I feel about predestination. I think that rather than the setup is made and from there the dice have it. It's more that certain events you cannot get away from. I beleive that your death and birth are the two big examples I can give for you that I belive you cannot avoid.
What other events inside in a life can't you avoid? Others start and end of life would again be another powerful example. (technically the same example I know!) But still these events have powerful repercussions and so should to my mind not be underestimated as the best examples to my mind of predestination.

I see a difference between predestination and destiny. Predestination is something that is set before you are born and you cannot change (it is the Calvinist view in Christianity).

Destiny on the otherhand I think changes. One decision you make can change your destiny. A mundane example would be that if I get engaged then I am destined to get married. Unless I take another decision before the wedding and break it off. I have then changed my destiny.

Interesting...

The other take of course would be that you were destined not to marry that person anyway I guess.

Predestination I believe is diffferent from fate, ceratin events are fated, those chance encounters that send your thoughts plans and actions are fated but the outcome isn't that to me is what I would define as fate.
To use Esk's example, it would seem that circumstances were fated for both Thunarr and Esk ( at least theoretically), them meeting at least was fated, them getting together wasn't. We still all have some free will or there is very litlle point, we may as well all sit down and stay there until our destinies are manifest.
Whatever the reason I couldn't even hazard a guess. I think that predestinaton is where the conclusion is steered to a definite ending. Thats why I use the two big examples in an earlier post, although someone once asked me the questios, ' How do we not know it's all predestined to happen as it'ss happening!' . Very mind expanding question that.

You could look at it that way. But somethings do only happen because you make a decision.

I know it's fiction, but look at Back to the Future. With that it isn't a case that Marty's dad was destined to be a looser. Because when Marty changes things his destiny is different.

silly example, I know - what can I say, I was a young teenager in 1985 going through a Michael J Fox phase!

No dont believe.Personally think you make things happen yourself.
Bloody hard though.

I go with the theory that you end up realising why things happened. Something good happens that couldn't have happened if events X Y and Z hadn't happened in the past and then you go "Well of course, it was predestined"

But that could just be the Friday the 13th theory where you bash your toe getting out of bed and shout "Friday the 13th" instead of b**gg$$, bo**ookls, farn!"

When referring to things that people think were pre-destined, people tend to pick things in life that they are now very satisfied with, usually meeting the right partner, doing something glorious or heroic etc., and say that that was pre-destined because of this, that and the other. People rarely choose an example of something really shitty going on in their lives and say that that was pre-destined. People often have the belief that their own destiny is somehow always positive, if that was the case then why is there so much nasty stuff going on in people's lives all over the world?

OK - my choice of "something good" was a wrong one - I should have said "something happens". In no way did I mean to imply that people's lives are pre-destined either good or bad.

It's only MY opinion, that hindsight allows one to see where a certain amount of "pre-destination" MIGHT have taken place. Had I not taken this job instead of that one, bought this car instead of the other one, then this or that would not have happened.

Is that ok?

Believe it or not I was actually agreeing with you.

Really? Oh well then ...... must have been fate I mistook it then!

Interesting expansion examplified by Ma there, albeit i jest. Is predestination dangerous as it absolves responsibility?

Does it though? As I've said, it doesn't for me.

I would also dispute that people only claim things were 'meant to be' when it's nice. I don't, that's just the example I gave at the time becauase it what set me pondering the question.

To expand a little, if I decided to go with the idea that some things have to happen to me and take a look in hindsight at my life thus far to look for those things that might support it, it's a varied bunch.

I went through a horrible time at school, never being 'part', getting bullied, having my will to live sapped every day until I gave up living and just existed for a very long time. It wasn't fun to experience, I would much prefer not to have done and tried everything for ages to break the cycle, nothing could. It's arguable that I was meant to experience that. Looking back, I'm glad I did as it's made me who I am, able to deal better with the world as I find it than might have been the case if all the stuffing hadn't got knocked out of me and forced me to put my own stuffing back in.

After many years of knowing deep down that I should, I finally did leave my husband. That was a very difficult desicion that I thought I'd never make, that I couldn't make. I'd put it aside so many times in my life that it appeared we would be together forever and I might as well make the best of it. Finally, I gave up the ghost and I did leave, which precipitated a lot of events which culminated in finding Thunarr. Had we noticed each other prior to my leaving, the whole thing wouldn't have happened. I wouldn't have let it. My own sense of morals would have resulted in such guilt that I had betrayed my husband to be someone else, however wonderful and right for me, would have tainted the whole thing and I know I wouldn't have been able to cope. So it's argueable again that it happened then because that's how it was meant to go.

Does that mean I can smile, shrug and say the hurt and pain that I caused my husband was nothing to do with me because it was meant to be that way? You know, I really wish it did. It doesn't though, I will carry that responsibility with me for a long time yet. What ever anyone or anything had in mind, however they fashioned my world to put these things in place, I still made the choices. I still have to live with the consequences, I do still live with the consequences and I do not shirk them thanks so very much. I'd love to, but I can't.

Perhaps it's different if you think beforehand that something you're going to do is fated, perhaps then you can absolve yourself of the responsiblity, perhaps some other types of people can anyway, but in my experience, no.

I don't believe in pre destination. I do believe in free will and tend to agree with what Willow said. Destiny to me would make us in a way like mindless sheep. Destiny may be in the decisions we make. Like leaving a marriage would likely send you off into one direction leading up to love and happiness or staying with the marriage and continue to be unhappy and not changing anything. It's changes that causes us to go off into different directions. And the old addage of that which doesn't kill us, makes us stonger applies. It takes guts to make a difficult decision in regards to keeping the status quo or taking a risk and doing something different for a change. This is what helps us grow and become confident. And confidence/attitude makes a big difference in how we deal with the dark side of life. We can make the decision of a life full of pity parties and alcohol to forget the pain and have the destiny of dying young with liver disease or picking ourselves up, dusting off and going on. Persistance seems to be the key in approaching any kind of goal one is after.

Esk - I feel deeply - can't possibly reply on forum as it is personal and for blog - see my blog.

But it still leaves the potential for an absoltuion of responsibility, that if life is predestined then a hitler ( to use a very extreme example) was needed ( or should I say destined?) at that time, and in that place by the gods/universe/ whatever personal philosophy others adhere too.

I think that whether the person carries there own responsibility for their own choices is really down to personality, depending on the individual personality depends on the acceptence of responsibility. Predestination may have very little affect on that! Or would it?

I don't personally believe in pre-destination whereby everything is set out before you and whatever happens is the will of the gods, probably because I don't believe in gods.

Free will, yes, I believe in that, yet I also believe that things happen for a reason, the reason being we've previously made a decision which has allowed such stuff to happen. There are a myriad paths we can set ourselves on through making a decision, and in the end each path will bring us to the end of that particular journey we are making, be it in the search for a lover or companion, or something else. I myself am with my partner after what seems like a series of bizarre coincidences, and many a moment spent wondering "how come we never met before", so I'm not about to diss destiny if that's what brought us together.

You know, I don't know where that leaves me in this argument - somewhere in the middle I think.

I was given this knowledge by some great people in a Druid Circle I joined. Its worth a good long meditative read. Enjoy WYRD

What is Wyrd?

Definition of Wyrd